PvP Item Levels in Chains of Domination

[neescher]

So it's ok that PvErs can have 1 set of gear that smacks in all content, but PvPers have to do both?

First of all, with this change the need for PvEers to do PvP is gone, so every player that plays PvP AND PvE I wouldn't classify as "PvEers", because if they do PvP after this change, it's not for their PvE needs.

Why is it fair that Mythic raiders can jump into arena and not be scaled down? Why isn't there a 'Goes up/down to ilvl x in PvP content'?

Because that's how math works. You don't need to double up on the bonus... if you increase PvP gear by 13 in PvP, you don't need to ALSO decrease PvE gear in PvP.

In PvP: PvP gear is 233, PvE is 226 -> PvP gear is half a tier better
In PvE: PvP gear is 220, PvE is 226 -> PvE gear is half a tier better

No need to increase PvP gear AND decrease PvE gear...

Add the fact that I now have to carry multiple sets of gear around, yippee...

In the past, you also had to have different item sets for PvP gear and PvE gear, and that was *before* you had 32 slot bags and 4 extra slots for authenticator. When people managed to do it with 20 slot bags, you can certainly manage now.

Did you know that PvPers cant get BiS gear without doing Castle Nathria? You literally can not go higher than 227 with just PvP; We already have to PvE if we want to truly be BiS.

Aaaaand that's where this change comes in. With this change you can suddenly get 233 by doing PvP, higher than you can get from PvE. Isn't that exactly w
what you're asking for? And at the same time, pure PvE players aren't forced to PvP anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

yeah they did, gearing in pve is alot more plentiful.
Pvpers might pick their piece every 2-4 weeks, but pvers have quite alot more drops, and the option to trade, which just adds up over time

Well the truth is, the fact that you combine gear from PvE and PvP meant that mythic raiders had to PvP. Not because "PvP gearing is faster than PvE", but rather because "PvP PLUS PvE gearing is faster than gearing from only PvE", and vice versa. If you were very interested in only PvP or only PvE, if you were doing high end content and if you were min-maxing, you had to do both PvE and PvP even if you didn't like one of them.

This change won't remove that fact completely - 220 PvP gear would have still been better than 213 heroic raid gear for mythic raiders - but it makes it less effective.

[Rollatorklm]

Well the truth is, the fact that you combine gear from PvE and PvP meant that mythic raiders had to PvP. Not because "PvP gearing is faster than PvE", but rather because "PvP PLUS PvE gearing is faster than gearing from only PvE", and vice versa. If you were very interested in only PvP or only PvE, if you were doing high end content and if you were min-maxing, you had to do both PvE and PvP even if you didn't like one of them.

This change won't remove that fact completely - 220 PvP gear would have still been better than 213 heroic raid gear for mythic raiders - but it makes it less effective.

But this is still the case for pvpers? even after the change, 233 is a single slot in pve, and multiple in pve, while 226 gear from m+ and entry bosses in raid is still required for optimal minmaxing in pvp
it will always be like this unless you literally make pvp entry level (like 190) in pve, and scale to above mythic raid loot in pvp, which is just terrible

and to your last point, 2100 in arena is alot harder for most of the playerbase to achieve, than heroic bosses, so it should be higher ilvl, especially with the "downside" of pvp gear having a high vers investment, which alone should make it compete with atleast some 213 pieces on most classes

[annamoa]

Cool. It only took them 5 (five) years to circle back to the correct solution. With players screaming at them to do it the entire time.

Now to hope that whenever they replace Ion with some other clown, they won't immediately take this back once again.

[Gaidax]

Looks good to me.

[Disen]

The first Templar's verdict with Avenging Wrath is always a crit.

It was so in Legion, i believe?
Is it still the case now, i'm not sure?
No spell description indicates that I see.

UPD: Just checked, that is not the case anymore.

[slime]

This just means if you do both you want 2 sets of gear.

Nothing new, Blizz just wants you wasting as much of your life possible playing wow.

[DechCJC]

BIG EDIT:

I've actually massively mis-read how the items will scale, I see now that PvP items are actually stronger in PvP by a decent margin, I get the argument now. I still feel as if there are better ways that this could have been done, but my main gripe with the system doesn't really exist anymore so whatever.

[Ealyssa]

For once Blizzard comes with a great system without any shenaningans.

Best PVE gear is from PVE, but it's still close of best for PVP
Best PVP gear is from PVP, but it's still close of best for PVE

Better then say reintroducing resilience or PVP power. Gear is the same, stats are the same, just their top performance that are slighty better in their intended content.
Brilliant actually, good job Blizzard.

[Vampyrr]

This change was needed. If you think otherwise you’re a complete idiot, or just complaining to complain. Rated PvP being the meta for PvE in season 1 was complete cancer. With this change, PvP will still be good in PvE, just not meta.

That said, Blizzard still needs to fix scaling within PvP. The gear delta between rating brackets shouldn’t be so extreme.

The issue is they still havent fixed the pve gearing problem

[Alkizon]

So they chose wrong (~WoD) version. They still don't want to understand that regardless of how they present it (through gear, or through characters), scaling-based system will never work adequately (this is something that player again can't control, which, with all its variability, contributes to chaos into strict and defined system in any of its implementation). There is no control over bonus/counterplay, and again adequate system of calculation and consistency of degree of interdependent growth of characteristics is lost with such system. In short, this is another garbage, not that complete crap, but good is still too little (better than nothing, but there is still no point in waiting for positive result). Although... I've said this many times already:

WoD version is wrong one

Significant remark: It's completely clear (based on foregoing) that scaling system used in WoD also doesn't satisfy any general conditions, since 1) it complicates whole, even without it, "hard-working on bug-forming" mathematical component (even sharp stats' jumps unpleasant); 2) doesn't form adequate/balancing and controlled by player mutual “weakening” of participation in another/activity not intended for this gear (penalty for wrong activity together with benefits for right matching, this fully includes balance of size for incoming/outgoing damage/healing/control and regeneration/absorption between participation in different activities); 3) completely devalue progress part and therefore experience/training period for particular activity (PvE2PvP items are conditionally interchangeable (mostly in this direction) without strict requirements for corresponding characteristics, participant doesn't feel direct damage to stuff already had (just falls short to rest ones), which means, that participation (=experience'growth) isn't necessary; dominance of directly reinforcing characteristics remains, which itself isn't good (see post's last quote, control shouldn't be their privilege)); 4) creates blurred border between them, which introduces some people into various forms of misconceptions regarding stats'/itemization organization. All it does just scales ilvl. My attitude to this technology can be read even, though, in section further.

PvP stat requirements makes PvE gear useless, and PvE do PvP one.

at the same time, common customizable characteristics hold them together within one system (without need to artificially weaken players against each other, and without canceling need to make them stronger against mobs). WoD gearing doesn't fulfill this condition (= is still wrong), since both of them were simply deleted.

There is need of exclusive PvP characteristics and PvE characteristics, which means that while maintaining same level of items in both areas, level (ilvl and inter-area characteristics' range) of characteristics' customization can be the same, which is exactly solution's essence and constitutes that very required balance.

[MiiiMiii]

Reasonable. However. I don't understand why Blizzard LOVES scaling so much. It sucks. It's anti fantasy. I think Resillience would have been a much better solution.

[kranur]

Not a bad change. it does have the side effect of making people who genuinely want to perform well in both pvp and pve to have 2 sets but really the alternatives are to either let pve choose their gear too or make pvp gear random again.

Resilience and PVP power will have the exact same effect as the dynamic ilvl, though they do seem more straight forward.

[Garybear]

I would be happy with this change, even wish they double down on it actually. Pve player should never have to do pvp for their pve gear.
Forcing pve player into pvp for their gear have always been awful, obviously pvp and pvp/pve player like competing with people who do not want to pvp, since it give them easy rating.

No one is forcing you to do it but yourself. Quit projecting.

[gallon]

In the past, you also had to have different item sets for PvP gear and PvE gear, and that was *before* you had 32 slot bags and 4 extra slots for authenticator. When people managed to do it with 20 slot bags, you can certainly manage now.

Well we used a bank before, not just our bags only. You never had room for all the gear to be in your bags. You would always have to swap things out or plan out your bags before a raid if you planned on switching gear. Now we just don't need a bank as much as we did back then.

[Dirdie]

We need a Conquest catch up mechanic for people that start later in the season. Impossible to catch up in pvp once you're behind in gear. You just get two shot

[gallon]

and to your last point, 2100 in arena is alot harder for most of the playerbase to achieve, than heroic bosses, so it should be higher ilvl, especially with the "downside" of pvp gear having a high vers investment, which alone should make it compete with atleast some 213 pieces on most classes

This is probably the best point here. To get 2100 in arena is way harder than to just do a +14 or 3 mythic bosses a week. Hell 1800 is harder than that for most people. A lot of the players who only PvE even in entry level mythic raiding struggle with 1400 because of the time it takes to learn how to pvp and how different it is from pve. I just did a raid the other week with a guild that was 4/10 mythic and some of their members were saying it was hard to get gear outside of raiding to get their ilevel up. My first thought was just go do pvp then, this late in the patch there is so much gear you can get from pvp and just boost it up all you need is the rating. But I was shocked at how many of them said that wasn't an option because they suck at pvp or they dont pvp because its hard.

Then you have me, who just plays a prot pally because I like tanking M+ and I dont really care about raiding anymore and 3/4 of my gear is pvp gear with the rest being all M+ and only 1 trinket from the raid.

[Recovery]

not much reason to pvp anymore then, is there.
If i wanted to play a hero arena game with a character that can only progress in that specific gametype, i'd be playing league of legends or DOTA, not wow arena.

Let WOW progression be more than just raiding and weekly chests please.

Neither of those 2 games are anything close to wow arena. Literally. Not the same, in any form or fashion. I know it's hard for you to believe, but some players only login to wow for instanced, competitive, rated pvp.

Gear doesnt matter. Everyone wears the same gear anyway, due to min/max. Outside of stats and how "cool" you look your gear is an after thought. What most people care about is hitting that "accept queue" button and then outperforming the team theyre matched against, resulting in a win, green numbers added to their CR, and Queueing again.

You know what wow players want? Things that other people dont have it. Gear from mythic raid (not because its gear but because it comes from content that most people dont see), titles / mounts from mythic raid, titles / mounts from arean / rbg, etc. Id venture to say that the endless gear grind is a reward of the past. Gear became so mundane that it doesnt feel like a reward. So, why make it a big deal?

Let me ask you this... If you were to complete mythic raid in a month and during that month, you also got full COMPLETELY BIS gear for your character, what would you do after?
where would your sense of reward come from? Is it rewarding to continue farming those mythic bosses even thought youre getting literally nothing from it? This is why gear as a reward has become stupid.

Take emphasis off of gear as a reward and base rewards around cosmetic things. Its better that way.

[Thes]

We need a Conquest catch up mechanic for people that start later in the season. Impossible to catch up in pvp once you're behind in gear. You just get two shot

It's not impossible it just takes a long time. I've done the grind on 2 characters during the past month now.

I agree it takes too long right now.

[Gorsameth]

The issue is they still havent fixed the pve gearing problem

Because in Blizzards eyes there is no PvE gearing problem.

[Biomega]

This is an odd conclusion to come to when this change will lead to raiders no longer feeling compelled to do pvp as the gear will not be as good in pve anymore. And vice versa.

You're overestimating the impact of the change.

It's for PvPers much more so than for PvEers. PvP is still an incredibly consistent way to gear, and for a lot of specs, PvP items will STILL be BiS for PvE.

Will it be as bad as it was before? No. And that's good. But it's a far cry from "No PvEr needs to do PvP now to get BiS, yay!".