{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Sorrowseer]

We’ll see how the last episode is next week, but so far I’m rating this as 4/10.

Last episode ho, short series relatively.

[Fabinas]

It’s not just that episode that bothered me. The show, imo, is...

- too political
- too woke
- too rushed
- odd pacing
- boring/useless characters
- personal family scenes that just drag on

- I’m annoyed that they nerfed Bucky and buffed Sam.
- The ruthlessness of the Wakanda women made no sense, other than to give the guy a reason for why he could slip away.

There’s more I could think of... but, yeah, not really a fan of this one. Hopefully Loki is more entertaining.

It's a shame you see those series as such.

Having an African-American as the 50% focus means they cannot ignore obvious political issues. Racism still exists, not only in USA, but in most of the world, people are being discriminated left and right for various reasons. Seeing the discrimination applying to WELL KNOWN HEROES, shows how deep those political issues are rooted and yet not solved. Add the fact that even some African-Americans are choosing to embrace the discrimination in the series (Black Falcon quote). We cannot assign everything to "wokeness", when everyday people are being judged because of color, religion, sexual preference etc.

I also wonder where do you see the rush? It's 6 episodes in total (5 aired) around an hour each. If it was not "rushed", then it would probably end up being overly political and woke, or flashy and shallow. I find a nice balance between action and narrative still.

Well, the pacing and boredness of the characters is personal taste and i really cannot comment on those. I would like some examples, though, just to understand your point of view.

As for Bucky's nerf, i think it was already explained. Bucky is old, injected with one of the first iterations of the Super Soldier serum and on a personal path that mitigates his violent tendencies. Walker is young, highly trained and prepared and most of all, injected with a brand new version of Serum who made pathetic humans (Flag Smashers) into formidable foes for Avengers. Imagine the effects on America's most proficient soldier.

Wakanda is a mix of jungle and tech. Fighting with melee weapons can only portrait the fighter as ruthless, as damage is inflicted in close combat and to the face of the enemy.

[Zaktar]

There’s other shows that I watch and enjoy that are also political and show issues like race and discrimination, and I have no issues with it - I love For All Mankind, for instance.

When it comes to this show, however, I just don’t think they did it well. It feels forced, like the message is being drilled in. I find myself rolling my eyes more, rather than applauding their efforts.

How could this show have been anything but political? The concepts at play are deeply political. How could they have made Sam Captain America without acknowledging how complicated that might feel for a black man? Maybe you don't like the story with Isaiah Bradley but it naturally connects to the main plot and is a fair depiction of the kinds of things the US government has done to the people who fought for it, especially the black people who fought for it. I'm glad they didn't try to whitewash american history, what they've done isn't woke, it's honest.

Which characters are useless?

[tyrlaan]

It’s not just that episode that bothered me. The show, imo, is...

- too political
- too woke
- too rushed
- odd pacing
- boring/useless characters
- personal family scenes that just drag on

- I’m annoyed that they nerfed Bucky and buffed Sam.
- The ruthlessness of the Wakanda women made no sense, other than to give the guy a reason for why he could slip away.

There’s more I could think of... but, yeah, not really a fan of this one. Hopefully Loki is more entertaining.

Can you define "woke"?

[Darththeo]

It’s not just that episode that bothered me. The show, imo, is...

- too political
- too woke
- too rushed
- odd pacing
- boring/useless characters
- personal family scenes that just drag on

- I’m annoyed that they nerfed Bucky and buffed Sam.
- The ruthlessness of the Wakanda women made no sense, other than to give the guy a reason for why he could slip away.

There’s more I could think of... but, yeah, not really a fan of this one. Hopefully Loki is more entertaining.

Too Political? The show is literally involves the mantle of Captain America. It is going to be a very political show for that fact alone.
Too woke? Are we watching the same show, because honestly, I feel I don't understand what "woke" means anymore. What is "woke" to you?
Too rushed? I can't see how you can say this. It is a faster pace than Wandavision, but that is because the shows are different tonal. Honestly, the shows pacing is akin to the Captain America movies to me.
Odd pacing? This is literally the same point as above but worded differently.
Boring/Useless Characters? Name one character or describe them if you feel this is true.
Personal Family scenes that just drag on? Oh no! Character development and backstory is bad!

Nerfed Bucky? It isn't like he is dealing with PTSD to an extreme no other human possibly could. It isn't like he just lost the only person in the world he had really connected. If you haven't figured out that Bucky is weaker because he is struggle with a huge mental issue that is going to hold anyone back, I don't honestly think you are paying attention to the show.
Buffed Sam? Not really, Sam's powers are pretty similar since Civil War.

Ruthlessness of the Wakanda women made no sense ... did you not watch Black Panther or Civil War? If they have a goal, they will not have someone stand in their way. That's their character. You are literally whining about established traits saying "it doesn't make sense." When we saw similar behavior in two prior movies from them.

[Endus]

Can you define "woke"?

I've literally never seen the term used in the last 10 years or so at least where it wasn't some far-right type who's angry that they're being scolded for being abusive or demeaning towards ethnic minority groups, LGBT people, or some other such thing. It's used as a slur the same way they use "liberal" or "SJW" or "socialist"; entirely devoid of its original meaning.

Ruthlessness of the Wakanda women made no sense ... did you not watch Black Panther or Civil War? If they have a goal, they will not have someone stand in their way. That's their character. You are literally whining about established traits saying "it doesn't make sense." When we saw similar behavior in two prior movies from them.

I feel like people missed that Wakanda was a xenophobic monarchist empire with deep-seated nationalist and militarist traditions. A big part of Black Panther was T'Challa coming to realize he had to change his country's approach. And that was like 7 years ago, in-universe.

He may be pushing for change, but countries don't change their tunes that quickly; the Dora Milaje are acting like they literally always would have. And probably aren't here on T'Challa's orders, in the first place.

[RobertoCarlos]

one day we'll be able to have black characters and their race wont have to be an issue. We can have a coming of age story, or the black IT nerd that isnt nerdy enough for his IT friends at silicon valley. One day!

But no anything with black characters HAS to have racism, police brutality, crime.

Imagine if they actually presented Sam with problems outside of his skin color :O what a shocker that would be.

Black people face more than just racism.

[tyrlaan]

one day we'll be able to have black characters and their race wont have to be an issue. We can have a coming of age story, or the black IT nerd that isnt nerdy enough for his IT friends at silicon valley. One day!

But no anything with black characters HAS to have racism, police brutality, crime.

Imagine if they actually presented Sam with problems outside of his skin color :O what a shocker that would be.

Black people face more than just racism.

Yeah, those racist flagsmashers getting up in Sam's business being all racist because he only has racist problems.

And that racist John Walker. So racist too.

Oh, oh, and that racist Sharon Carter acting super sus and probably plotting against him!

How could I forget that racist shrimp boat, that deliberately broke down so he'd have to put all that time and effort into fixing it in a montage steeped in racism?

...

For the 25%ish percent of your post that isn't hyperbolic snark, maybe when the US stops embedding racism in everything it does we could start having realistic black characters where race isn't an issue. Until then, not having race an issue would require more suspension of disbelief than accepting superpowers exist.

Or is your intended response to this that racism doesn't exist?

[RobertoCarlos]

Yeah, those racist flagsmashers getting up in Sam's business being all racist because he only has racist problems.

And that racist John Walker. So racist too.

Oh, oh, and that racist Sharon Carter acting super sus and probably plotting against him!

How could I forget that racist shrimp boat, that deliberately broke down so he'd have to put all that time and effort into fixing it in a montage steeped in racism?

...

For the 25%ish percent of your post that isn't hyperbolic snark, maybe when the US stops embedding racism in everything it does we could start having realistic black characters where race isn't an issue. Until then, not having race an issue would require more suspension of disbelief than accepting superpowers exist.

Or is your intended response to this that racism doesn't exist?

Maybe if their intentions were genuine and not just trying to make "cultural events" out of their superhero shit so it hits the 1billion+ mark like black panthar and captain Marvel did.

Obviously their metrics will be different for a post covid streaming service, but its just like the "Say no to racism" stuff in sports.

Like yeah its a nice thought, but you are not actually doing shit to combat racism, you're just trying to make money, at least be up front about it.

[Syegfryed]

i have to agree that wakanda woman being stronger than super soldier is quite bullshit, but this is the problem in most shows anyway, how to handle power lv and the excessive use of the rule of cool, the MCU itself had a lot of shit like that in the last movies

Like i don't expect they handling Loki well in his show, he is supposed to be a good of mischief, doing spells and all, he is also a jottun after all, so, maybe frost giant shenanigan, but most likely he appear just doing a duplicate illusion and throwing daggers.

[tyrlaan]

Maybe if their intentions were genuine and not just trying to make "cultural events" out of their superhero shit so it hits the 1billion+ mark like black panthar and captain Marvel did.

Obviously their metrics will be different for a post covid streaming service, but its just like the "Say no to racism" stuff in sports.

Like yeah its a nice thought, but you are not actually doing shit to combat racism, you're just trying to make money, at least be up front about it.

If it's making people talk, it's doing something.

And if this makes them money, it means people want this stuff. So do people not like it or do they? Sounds like the crux of your complaint here is a paradox.

But let's be frank - EVERYTHING companies do is going to be based on what makes them more money. That said, there's a difference between tokenism and actually doing your homework and getting stuff right. I can't say with certainty of course, but this seems a lot more like doing your homework than just throwing a black dude on screen so you can say you have a black character..

[Stardrift]

roflmao

You could have at least spaced it out more than one post.


Even if you were being honest, I can pretty much guarantee that all of the precious entertainment you "used to love" has this same stuff in it.

The BLM movement is two parts. There's the crowd advocating for equality, and then there's those who took to rioting, even murdering people in broad daylight. They burned down businesses and homes, and destroyed everything the first part of BLM was hoping to accomplish.

But that's besides the point. People are tired of social political lectures being crammed into everything. And the fact you think we're dishonest, racist, or worse for not wanting such is ridiculous.

- - - Updated - - -

You know what's tiresome? Hundreds of years of racial injustice. You know what else is tiresome? People thinking its tiresome when somewhere around a mere hour of their time is "lost" to watching 100% relevant character beats that speak to that racial injustice.



I do like how the big problem is being "constantly reminded" of racial injustice. I can only imagine that those who experience racial injustice on the daily share your pain.

Though if you actually cared about racial injustice, you'd have something dramatically less ignorant to say about BLM, so let's stop with the bad faith arguments, k?

--

I give the show credit for making people talk about this stuff, (I just wish it was constructive conversations instead of the reductive deflection bullshit that I'm not at all surprised to see), since I think a good show/movie inspires real conversation and not just things like "falcon would totally beat wolverine in a fight" or whatever.

I also give the show credit for unapologetically (so far) shining a light on several ugly aspects of the US. These beats all make 100% perfect sense for these characters and it all just comes out of naturally watching events unfold for them. It's quite well done.

- - - Updated - - -



That conversation between the two of them was fantastic in many ways. That acknowledgement you mention here was VERY good.

Don't care. There's a time and place for this stuff. Cramming it into absolutely everything is not the right way to go about it. You're creating more hate and division this way.

- - - Updated - - -

Everything has always been political.

All that's changed is you're being confronted with political views that previously were suppressed and kept silent, or which you were able to ignore.



If you've got an issue with BLM protests, man, does that say everything anyone needs to know about where you're coming from.

If people knew enough about these injustices that they'd been corrected for societally, then you might've had a point. But we're so damned far from that point that getting annoyed/angry at black voices telling you there's serious injustices at play in society, that's not a defensible position, in any way whatsoever. And that's all you're doing here; complaining that you're being expected to listen to black voices speaking out against the injustices they suffer.

Not everything needs to be political. There's many things that aren't. Fuck, social issues shouldn't even be political. Yet, here we are categorizing people when obsessive categorization is what's seperating us so much. If you don't like x, you're a right-wing nazi. If you support y, you're a libtard cuck. See the problem here?

Keep politics the fuck out of things people use to escape said politics.

[Darththeo]

i have to agree that wakanda woman being stronger than super soldier is quite bullshit

Bucky is the only super soldier we see them fight. Walker had yet to take the serum at that point.

Bucky would not be fighting to kill and he stop fighting when his arm was removed ... you know, the arm that he got in Wakanda that uses Wakandan tech.

[Polyxo]

Bucky is the only super soldier we see them fight. Walker had yet to take the serum at that point.

Bucky would not be fighting to kill and he stop fighting when his arm was removed ... you know, the arm that he got in Wakanda that uses Wakandan tech.

He may also be canonically weaker now. It could be just me, but I think he looks skinnier now and less stocky than he was in winter soldier and other stuff. Maybe his post winter soldier lifestyle is less rigorous and has made him less strong (still on a super soldier scale).

[Volardelis]

Okay, I’m honestly just really annoyed by the beginning fight scene with Walker. They really made Bucky weaker. This dude was comparable to Steve in strength, agility, fighting... he mimicked him when they fought, only being better when it came to handling a knife. Yet here’s Walker kicking his ass, and his arm (the one that’s supposed to be even tougher than his initial one) malfunctions.

What a load of shit.

I think you are missing a very important point. Bucky in The Winter Soldier was trying to kill Steve and wasn't blinded by emotions. He was basically a robot programmed to kill. When fighting Walker they are trying to take the shield from him. Initially peacefully, but when that didn't work they tried to remove it by force without killing him or at the very least injuring him a major way. Which was why his arm getting broken was important to see. Walker on the other hand was out for blood. You generally pull your punches and kicks when you are simply trying to knock someone out instead of killing him. Even more so if you are a super soldier.

It is honestly funny seeing you paint character development and personal redemption as "nerfing". Bucky wants the world to know he is not the Winter Soldier anymore. He can't go around killing people left right and center while still saying he has changed.

- - - Updated - - -

Not everything needs to be political. There's many things that aren't. Fuck, social issues shouldn't even be political. Yet, here we are categorizing people when obsessive categorization is what's seperating us so much. If you don't like x, you're a right-wing nazi. If you support y, you're a libtard cuck. See the problem here?

Keep politics the fuck out of things people use to escape said politics.

If you honestly thought that a show that is a direct sequel to the CAPTAIN AMERICA movies would not involve politics, you don't understand the point of that trilogy. I mean Civil War was basically a political debate between Superheroes on individual freedoms and self-regulation vs regulation of an "independent" collective. Winter Soldier put a lot of focus on the freedom vs security debate, which is still ongoing to this day with things like some people demanding that American schools have armed guards because of the mass shootings.

[Syegfryed]

Bucky is the only super soldier we see them fight. Walker had yet to take the serum at that point.

Bucky would not be fighting to kill and he stop fighting when his arm was removed ... you know, the arm that he got in Wakanda that uses Wakandan tech.

he didn't fight to kill but still got his ass handled, before they going for his arm, he should not even flinch normally

but again thats what i think, power lv in mcu is weird anyway

[Endus]

The BLM movement is two parts. There's the crowd advocating for equality, and then there's those who took to rioting, even murdering people in broad daylight. They burned down businesses and homes, and destroyed everything the first part of BLM was hoping to accomplish.

Rioting has never been part of the BLM movement.

You're pushing far-right racist propaganda for some reason, here. Literal disinformation.

Don't care. There's a time and place for this stuff. Cramming it into absolutely everything is not the right way to go about it. You're creating more hate and division this way.

If your reaction to being shown injustices and inequities that black Americans suffer is to become hateful and target black Americans for abuse, yeah, that's just pure racism. And that's the only "more hate and division" that could be created this way.

Marvel has been expressly and explicitly political for better than 50 years. They have been an active and overt supporter of civil rights movements at every turn. This is not remotely new ground for the company to be treading.

If you want to shield yourself from these discussions and make a safe space where you don't get confronted with uncomfortable truths, go nuts. But that's a "you" problem, not a "Marvel" problem.

This whole "why are social justice issues crammed into everything" argument is just an attempt to silence voices you disagree with. Well, tough. Marvel wants to explore these themes. If you don't like it, you can go elsewhere for your entertainment.

[Stardrift]

Go watch Wandavision and let me know it’s “absolutely everything”.

What an odd thing to ask of me to do in a vain attempt to prove social politics haven't seeped into everything.

It's in numerous videogame series that never used to be about social politics, and have since taken it upon themselves to insert it at any chance they get. Movies, heroes, comics, tv shows, Netflix shows, the list goes on and on for entertainment.

There's rarely a single break from this stuff, and you can't deny it. Again, I 100% agree with most of the messages, but it's fucking tiring hearing it over, and over, and over, and over.

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I think you are missing a very important point. Bucky in The Winter Soldier was trying to kill Steve and wasn't blinded by emotions. He was basically a robot programmed to kill. When fighting Walker they are trying to take the shield from him. Initially peacefully, but when that didn't work they tried to remove it by force without killing him or at the very least injuring him a major way. Which was why his arm getting broken was important to see. Walker on the other hand was out for blood. You generally pull your punches and kicks when you are simply trying to knock someone out instead of killing him. Even more so if you are a super soldier.

It is honestly funny seeing you paint character development and personal redemption as "nerfing". Bucky wants the world to know he is not the Winter Soldier anymore. He can't go around killing people left right and center while still saying he has changed.

- - - Updated - - -



If you honestly thought that a show that is a direct sequel to the CAPTAIN AMERICA movies would not involve politics, you don't understand the point of that trilogy. I mean Civil War was basically a political debate between Superheroes on individual freedoms and self-regulation vs regulation of an "independent" collective. Winter Soldier put a lot of focus on the freedom vs security debate, which is still ongoing to this day with things like some people demanding that American schools have armed guards because of the mass shootings.

If you can't tell the difference between social politics and fantasy politics, you're far gone and not worth discussing anything with.

[tyrlaan]

<your bullshit>

Explain to me how anything in TFATWS is creating more hate and division. Provide examples.

[Stardrift]

Rioting has never been part of the BLM movement.

You're pushing far-right racist propaganda for some reason, here. Literal disinformation.



If your reaction to being shown injustices and inequities that black Americans suffer is to become hateful and target black Americans for abuse, yeah, that's just pure racism. And that's the only "more hate and division" that could be created this way.

Marvel has been expressly and explicitly political for better than 50 years. They have been an active and overt supporter of civil rights movements at every turn. This is not remotely new ground for the company to be treading.

If you want to shield yourself from these discussions and make a safe space where you don't get confronted with uncomfortable truths, go nuts. But that's a "you" problem, not a "Marvel" problem.

This whole "why are social justice issues crammed into everything" argument is just an attempt to silence voices you disagree with. Well, tough. Marvel wants to explore these themes. If you don't like it, you can go elsewhere for your entertainment.

Dude, people were murdered on the streets by rioters, including a black cop trying to intervene with the torching of a building in broad daylight. I saw the video and it was fucking awful. Stretch the truth and make up conspiracy theories all you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that something that was peaceful was turned violent real quickly. People started calling Terry Crews a fucking c**n because he spoke out against the violence and black supremacy some people were pushing for, for fuck's sake. Hell, BLM rioters tried to storm the capitol and people mistook it for the whitehouse and cheered for it being burned down.

Am I making shit up? Who the fuck knows, the media you worship and deem credible certainly has it all buried thanks to the abuse of the Google search algorithm. Trust me or not, there's vitriol, hatred and violence on both sides and that in of itself is undeniable.

People like me? We're just sick of seeing it everywhere. Learn to keep it in one or two places. Hell, make a ton of places specifically for it. Just don't turn things that aren't about it into social political lecture circlejerk centers.

Bringing up forbidden topics isn't allowed. Infracted.