Why is end game tailored so much against the casual player?

[Crimson Spears]

It is. What the fuck, dude?

Let me guess you clapped when double jump for DH was announced to?

[Krimzin]

Lots of people complained in BFA and it was a mass exodus. To the point social media outlets were talking about how horrendous it is to be on par with other players and go participate in raids. THE PLAYER GAP is very much a REAL thing. Let me repeat, no skill, just grind.

So then if you grind, you can get Cutting Edge and KSM right. Cool good to know. Oh wait, last season less than 5% of the entire population got cutting edge. I run 15s on a regular basis with pugs and I can tell you, you can not just grind your way through it. I am by no means a great player. I am average on a good day but I know my classes and I know what i need to do to be successful in a Raid/Dungeon. There are so many players who couldn't find a clue with both hands in a Raid/Dungeon. They cant do mechanics, they stand in everything and half of them didn't know they had an ability that can interrupt. So how do you grind through a 15 with players who cant do mechanics? You cant. It is as simple as that.

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if there is no casuals and the playerbase is dwindling.. the exploiters will NOT make sufficient amount of money and neither will Blizzard. (While everything including the economy could be flourishing) It's pretty much common sense.

I never said Casuals shouldnt be in the game. They are a big part of it, I agree. I dont however think they should be handed everything without doing anything for it. End game is a not a stimulus check.

[Selastan]

Go figure, I wonder if thats why they call it an MMORPG... Multi Player.. hmmm. I mean really. Comparing an RPG single player and an MMORPG multi player and saying its dumb to have to play with other people is kind of...assissinine at best. If you dont want to do content with other people dont play an MMO. You can play any spec in the game currently and beat all the the highest possible content, even then the difference in class/specs in minimal in a 20 man raid.

Yes, the MMO part is indeed there, but you can't just DROP the RPG part. You shouldn't HAVE to play with other people, you should GET to. As it stands, WoW isn't an RPG with multiplayer elements, it's a multiplayer action game with some RPG elements.

Honestly, I wonder how WoW would look if it were made today by the current team. I bet there wouldn't even be an open world, or a leveling system, or a character creator. Just a hero for each class with unlockable skins, menus to group up with people and load directly into dungeons, and the only thing you got out of it was some cosmetic rewards and the 'challenge' of even getting to the end and showing off how 'optimally' you can play.

[arr0gance]

Let me guess you clapped when double jump for DH was announced to?

Why wouldn't I call an actual improvement...an improvement? Oh right. Because you just want to snidely deride anybody who dares challenge your happy little "DAE Blizzard BAD????????" negativity echo chamber.

[starstationprofm]

So basically you're saying that Blizzard should ONLY listen to hardcores and tell the casuals to bugger off despite casual players literally being the ones paying them the most money? In what reality is that a good business move?

They have been listening to casuals for the last 10 years and the game has suffered enormously due to it.

The multiple raid difficulties, the welfare epics, LFG, LFR, world quests are all things they did for the casuals.

Hell even M+ is a boon for casuals, you can get the same ilvl as a Mythic raider or Gladiator PvPer from a piece of content that requires only 5 people and 30 minutes.

Why should 5 man content give the same loot ilvl as the hardest content in the game that requires 20 people?

[8bithamster]

Seirously? This topic still going?

M+ -> Casual friendly
Raiding -> Casual friendly
PVP -> Casual friendly

why? Because you can do it at the level you want. If you think it's to hard/much? It's on you, not the game.

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They have been listening to casuals for the last 10 years and the game has suffered enormously due to it.

The multiple raid difficulties, the welfare epics, LFG, LFR, world quests are all things they did for the casuals.

Hell even M+ is a boon for casuals, you can get the same ilvl as a Mythic raider or Gladiator PvPer from a piece of content that requires only 5 people and 30 minutes.

Why should 5 man content give the same loot ilvl as the hardest content in the game that requires 20 people?

It shouldn't, and most casuals don't want that. They understand that you don't need a higher itemlevel than the content you do. Sadly the vocal minority thinks it speaks for everyone, as usual.

[Zorachus]

WoW has become all about M+, Raids, and stupid "systems". And that's it once your max level.

Casuals have nothing to do in WoW now.

I see Shadowlands being the expansion that bleeds the most subs from launch to the final patch.

[Tadkins]

I never said Casuals shouldnt be in the game. They are a big part of it, I agree. I dont however think they should be handed everything without doing anything for it. End game is a not a stimulus check.

So give me a path to work toward the gear that doesn't require submitting to harsh community standards. Otherwise if I can't have a place in the game, why should I pay sub money to help support it?

[Soon-TM]

Yes, the MMO part is indeed there, but you can't just DROP the RPG part. You shouldn't HAVE to play with other people, you should GET to. As it stands, WoW isn't an RPG with multiplayer elements, it's a multiplayer action game with some RPG elements.

Honestly, I wonder how WoW would look if it were made today by the current team. I bet there wouldn't even be an open world, or a leveling system, or a character creator. Just a hero for each class with unlockable skins, menus to group up with people and load directly into dungeons, and the only thing you got out of it was some cosmetic rewards and the 'challenge' of even getting to the end and showing off how 'optimally' you can play.

In that regard, Ion's ultimate goal seems to be turning WoW into a clone of HotS or OW. Actually, even HotS is more welcoming to the casual crowd than anything in BfA or SL.

[Glorious Leader]

Seirously? This topic still going?

M+ -> Casual friendly
Raiding -> Casual friendly
PVP -> Casual friendly

why? Because you can do it at the level you want. If you think it's to hard/much? It's on you, not the game.

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It shouldn't, and most casuals don't want that. They understand that you don't need a higher itemlevel than the content you do. Sadly the vocal minority thinks it speaks for everyone, as usual.

None of you fucking hypocrites would touch mythic raiding if it didn't also happen to reward the best gear in the game. The developers could simple scale your characters to whatever item level is an appropriate challenge, hell they do it now for raid testing in the ptr. None of a single one of you hypocrites woud find that experience satisfying but you fully expect everybody else to be handed shit with no way of getting anything better other than engaging in your pet content.

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In that regard, Ion's ultimate goal seems to be turning WoW into a clone of HotS or OW. Actually, even HotS is more welcoming to the casual crowd than anything in BfA or SL.

because you should subsidize their content duh

[Selastan]

They have been listening to casuals for the last 10 years and the game has suffered enormously due to it.

The multiple raid difficulties, the welfare epics, LFG, LFR, world quests are all things they did for the casuals.

Hell even M+ is a boon for casuals, you can get the same ilvl as a Mythic raider or Gladiator PvPer from a piece of content that requires only 5 people and 30 minutes.

Why should 5 man content give the same loot ilvl as the hardest content in the game that requires 20 people?

The problem is that CASUALS DON'T WANT TO RAID OR M+. Every time someone says 'The game is too hard!' Blizzard makes raiding or mythic easier. They aren't fucking listening. We. Don't. Want. Instanced. Content. We don't want a kiddieproofed version of the hardcore zone, we want the focus to shift from raid tiers to open-world content. Look at WoD, customizable garrisons with various huge outdoor benefits, each zone having different options of powers to select with radically different uses and strengths, and multiple followers able to be assigned as bodyguards. That's the kind of thing we want.

[Glorious Leader]

The problem is that CASUALS DON'T WANT TO RAID OR M+. Every time someone says 'The game is too hard!' Blizzard makes raiding or mythic easier. They aren't fucking listening. We. Don't. Want. Instanced. Content. We don't want a kiddieproofed version of the hardcore zone, we want the focus to shift from raid tiers to open-world content. Look at WoD, customizable garrisons with various huge outdoor benefits, each zone having different options of powers to select with radically different uses and strengths, and multiple followers able to be assigned as bodyguards. That's the kind of thing we want.

I wouldn't go that far. Basically the game should offer equivalent character progression outside of raiding and m+. WoD didn't really offer that. I take your point about fleshing out the content itself a bit more but the reward engineering schemes were just so poor in WoD. I think the Legion artifact weapon was a perfect example of casual friendly content. And if some people feel "forced" to participate because of that particular reward scheme well thats an indicator that its well done.

[Crimson Spears]

I wouldn't go that far. Basically the game should offer equivalent character progression outside of raiding and m+. WoD didn't really offer that. I take your point about fleshing out the content itself a bit more but the reward engineering schemes were just so poor in WoD. I think the Legion artifact weapon was a perfect example of casual friendly content. And if some people feel "forced" to participate because of that particular reward scheme well thats an indicator that its well done.

Why is it that hardcore bad players always want to waste other people's time in their content but refuse to do other people's content to get their rewards?

[Soon-TM]

some people feel "forced" to participate because of that particular reward scheme well thats an indicator that its well done.

God forbid that hardcore raiders ever go through an inconvenience. The last time Blizzard catered to this particular crowd was WoD, and we all saw how it turned out.

[munkeyinorbit]

There isn't a single popular content creator that likes the covenant system, or anything op mentioned for that matter. You thought you saw an opportunity to vent your unreasonable anger towards the "streamers", your mortal enemy, but that argument is misplaced here. The absolute vast majority of content creators hate the system for exactly that reason. Keep your cool.

Wrong. Content creators are there to make money. What's the best way to make money? Create a narrative that "Blizzard doesn't listen to us, here are my <insert idea that everyone has already said> that will fix the game". Using content creators as a gauge on what the players actually think is just wrong. Do the majority of people like Covenants? We don't know because this site only has hundreds of users now, not hundreds of thousands of users.

[Glorious Leader]

Why is it that hardcore bad players always want to waste other people's time in their content but refuse to do other people's content to get their rewards?

You misunderstand. See I dont "want" you to waste time nor do I think you were any way shape or form required to do so. I'm just not interested in having the rest of the game revolve around the inability of people to stop themselves from doing things they profess to hate. Now it so happens to coincide that a good rewards scheme for casual players will stir that particular impetus on the part of some folks but that can and should be ignored.

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God forbid that hardcore raiders ever go through an inconvenience. The last time Blizzard catered to this particular crowd was WoD, and we all saw how it turned out.

The part I dont understand is that for all their bitching and moaning they did it anyway and remained subbed. Why would you as a developer cater to this at the expense of literally everybody else? Those people that complained by and large weren't going anywhere, they are hopeless addicts. Why risk alienating everybody else to cater to somebody who is clearly stating they can't stop consuming your product despite themselves?

[Tadkins]

because you should subsidize their content duh

Right?

"Please pay for my content, oh but no you don't get anything for yourself."

[SirCowdog]

Imagine thinking a game that goes out of its fucking way to completely reinvent itself every ~2 years "lacks innovation." What you mean is, "the devs didn't do what I, the center of the known universe and the only human being whose opinion matters, thought they should."

Imagine thinking that typing "completely reinvent" means something it doesn't.,

WoW is WoW. Sure, there might be the occasional new system in world of systemcraft. But "completely reinvent" is a bit of a stretch. The underlying fundamentals of the game haven't changed since WOTLK. Level up, gear reset, grind end game...primarily raiding. Tell me how, exactly, that's completely reinventing itself?


Also, nice strawman. So much easier to create something out of thin air to argue against instead of actually making a real point.

[Queen of Hamsters]

They've been doing similar shit since Legion at this point. All the people proclaiming how the numbers are tanking and it's a BIG FAIL, are just shining a light on their own lack of critical thinking skills.

If they continue with X for years on end, they're probably seeing that it works for their bottom line and retention. You might not like it, I sure as fuck don't, but claiming that the strategies are failing as a nobody with zero insight and lots of emotions vs the ones making decisions based on literal numbers, is pathetic. Generally speaking having seen the drivel written throughout the thread, often by the same posters.

I'd say that voting with your wallet works, but I've seen the same inane discussions and sentiments on here for 11 years at this point and the game never went anywhere but forward in its development. Sad as it is.

If SL shows very bad results in the next quarterly, PERHAPS there'll be changes made. But it didn't happen throughout BfA, so why now? Meh... Everyone I know seems to be infatuated for some reason. Each to their own.

I'm not a casual player btw, and I feel as if the game's designed against me and my way of playing these past years.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Because you giving them your time and money

If the majority of money is made by casual players as people claim and they making alot of money, seems like casuals are fine with it, no?

Also i cant literally cant imagine any time there is more to do for a casual player than now

na a hardcore raider is more worth by far more, we are the reason ppl buy tokens cuz we boost, one mythic clear costs 3M KSM 1.2M HC clear 350k i could go on, all that token money and if a hardcore raider switches guilds he has to trans like 6 alt chars for splits n shit all the race changes i did for special bosses (hello goblin jump and bersek) my server transes are worth alone more than 5 casual life time subs at this point.