Why is end game tailored so much against the casual player?

[Crimson Spears]

The point was about what kind of content you do, which some use to determine if they're casual or hardcore. The friend only logged in once in a while to get carried in a raid but called himself "hardcore" because he was a "raider."

There is no line in the sand for the terms. They're all subjective and I've heard some pretty illogical opinions but again, they're entitled to their opinions. There will always be "those guys" who use terms to try and condescend people.

Does it really matter at the end of the day?

I've not seen people misunderstanding one another when they talk to each other. Are you arguing they do? People using casual in this thread and others like it always refer to people who refuse to do challenging content but whine for rewards. Does the world shift below our feet if we call them casual or terrible?

When it comes down to it this topic is about people who want to be let into what they see as " The hallowed halls" a place where players work together in a drama free environment to overcome challenges and accomplish their goals.

The problem is they think a binary number is what decides this rather then seeing it is the learned skill of the group. If they are given what they want all it will accomplish is hinder new players by creating an artificial gear barrier to get past people who don't really understand the game but now have an inflated score.

[Necromantic]

Does it really matter at the end of the day?

I've not seen people misunderstanding one another when they talk to each other. Are you arguing they do? People using casual in this thread and others like it always refer to people who refuse to do challenging content but whine for rewards. Does the world shift below our feet if we call them casual or terrible?

When it comes down to it this topic is about people who want to be let into what they see as " The hallowed halls" a place where players work together in a drama free environment to overcome challenges and accomplish their goals.

The problem is they think a binary number is what decides this rather then seeing it is the learned skill of the group. If they are given what they want all it will accomplish is hinder new players by creating an artificial gear barrier to get past people who don't really understand the game but now have an inflated score.

Of course it does. Pay attention to the comments people here or on the official forums make. It's almost like it's a sin to be a casual player. So many assumptions about casuals are made and this thread is no exception.

I do challenging content and don't ask for anything yet I consider myself casual. The only game I've ever played where I consider myself hardcore is Diablo 3 because the game type I play is... "hardcore."

And whether it's binary, hexidecimal or whatever, without definition, it's all subjective.

"Casuals are people who refuse to..... but want...." That sounds like pure pessimism and being salty.

[Crimson Spears]

Of course it does. Pay attention to the comments people here or on the official forums make. It's almost like it's a sin to be a casual player. So many assumptions about casuals are made and this thread is no exception.

I do challenging content and don't ask for anything yet I consider myself casual. The only game I've ever played where I consider myself hardcore is Diablo 3 because the game type I play is... "hardcore."

And whether it's binary, hexidecimal or whatever, without definition, it's all subjective.

"Casuals are people who refuse to..... but want...." That sounds like pure pessimism and being salty.

That is because people have changed the meaning of casual to mean that someone is terrible at the game but they don't want to admit it so they cloak themselves in the term when asking for freebies that would break the game.

You can tell by what it is they want... If people are against time sinks like ap,conduits, torghast and other lengthy but dull content they tend to be the traditional casual. A person with limited play time who doesn't want to do chores but focus on what made wow famous. The dungeons and the raids.

If they are begging for power and are asking for more grindy material they tend to be terrible players who want time investment to be rewarded over content.

Personally my mentality is more along the lines of the orks from warhammer 40k.

[Necromantic]

That is because people have

Who are these people?

You've made it clear that you believe casuals are people who want things for nothing. Don't paint all casuals with the same brush. That's like assuming all hardcore players are those elitists who think they game would stop if they didn't log in every day.

[Crimson Spears]

Who are these people?

You've made it clear that you believe casuals are people who want things for nothing. Don't paint all casuals with the same brush. That's like assuming all hardcore players are those elitists who think they game would stop if they didn't log in every day.

I'm not doing that and you are well aware I am not. Will you pretend to be blind now to what groups are acting in threads like this now?

Why get caught up in playing these word games we both know what is being discussed here.

Edit: Honestly I am tempted to tie every responses to this topic with 40k references now...

[Necromantic]

I'm not doing that and you are well aware I am not. Will you pretend to be blind now to what groups are acting in threads like this now?

Why get caught up in playing these word games we both know what is being discussed here.

No, I'm not "well aware" because you're making it quite clear.

You get 1 (possibly casual) player acting a certain way and automatically, they're all like that. You get 1 (possibly hardcore) player acting a certain way and automatically, they're all like that.

Don't buy in too much to what others feed you.

[Crimson Spears]

No, I'm not "well aware" because you're making it quite clear.

You get 1 (possibly casual) player acting a certain way and automatically, they're all like that. You get 1 (possibly hardcore) player acting a certain way and automatically, they're all like that.

Don't buy in too much to what others feed you.

Then ignore what they claim to be and focus on what it is they want. It isn't a hard concept. If they want the entire gearing path to be shattered with time extensive grinds that rely on extremely easy content they are a player that can't succeed in traditional content.

I would help them if it wouldn't utterly bring the game to ruin.

[Necromantic]

Then ignore what they claim to be and focus on what it is they want. It isn't a hard concept. If they want the entire gearing path to be shattered with time extensive grinds that rely on extremely easy content they are a player that can't succeed in traditional content.

I would help them if it wouldn't utterly bring the game to ruin.

That's still awful judgmental. You sound very bitter towards what people commonly refer to as "casual". Did one ruin your game somehow? Did one make a suggestion that came true and made the game a way you don't like?

[Crimson Spears]

That's still awful judgmental. You sound very bitter towards what people commonly refer to as "casual". Did one ruin your game somehow? Did one make a suggestion that came true and made the game a way you don't like?

Watching the game change over the years is in essence watching it decay. I recall wow's old community and I am going to go rather far back with this but bare with me. In tbc you had a rather direct path in the game and I would argue on of the best progression systems. You went from normal to heroic dungeons. That step required certain skills to be mastered not terribly difficult skills but skills none the less. From there you went to kara then to gruul then depending on when we are talking tk and ssc.

Each step taught players more and more skills difficulty build upon difficulty then things started to change. Queue wrath heroics now before LFD came into the game and even a bit after wow players had some general standards. That however wasn't acceptable and before long kick protection was added to force players to carry others. This lead to the playerbase degrading to the point that when cata came around what used to be the standard difficulty was now to high for the average playerbase.

I lost some of my favorite content from "casuals" wailing they couldn't accomplish the content and demanding they get a movie mode of the game. From there LFR came into the game and the endless bickering and whining of players who immediately saw it for what it was a loot piñata. In MoP I watched as legendary items a system I never liked ( I don't see value in game breaking weapons) become a time locked grind to give the same type of player a reward for logging on. I've watched as grind after grind is added into the game from legion onwards all in a desperate attempt to attract a playerbase I personally think don't even really enjoy the game for the game play but rather are simply invested in the story.

I am going to skip over and combine a bit from legion to now for brevities sake and because most of the topics all mesh together regardless. At this point we have had a dozen power grind systems added and has any of the group that seems to be demanding them ever been satisfied? At any point are these increasingly annoying contrived systems lagging me from enjoying content I want to do even noticed or enjoyed by the people demanding them?

You ask me if I am bitter towards the community that keeps begging for grinds to be put into the game after three to four years of watching them applaud systems sometimes for no other reason then it will annoy the high end community and ask if im bitter towards them?

They are a swarm of locus. They exist to consume without thought or reason and every time they get something it instantly losses all value to them ( you can look at heroic dungeons as a prime example of that). We are at the point the "hardcore" by your definition now consists of one single mode of the same raid and it is deemed as to much by this player base. The "hardcores" only have one bastion left standing to them yet there seems to be almost awe when the crowd that has taken everything finds resistance when they try to ram down the final gate...

[Necromantic]

So the answer to my question was "yes."

It's hard to pinpoint who is to blame in those cases of the game evolving (devolving?) over time. There are people on both sides of the spectrum who want different things or a mixture.

It's all about what the majority of people want. I'm part of a crowd who did not want "trophies" in console games because it took away from games being fun to checking off a list but I'm out-voted.

You're only going to drive yourself nuts and angry if you dwell on what the masses want. Many changes were made that I don't like but... oh well... that's how it is. Those in charge are mostly to blame for enabling the "devolution".

[Crimson Spears]

So the answer to my question was "yes."

It's hard to pinpoint who is to blame in those cases of the game evolving (devolving?) over time. There are people on both sides of the spectrum who want different things or a mixture.

It's all about what the majority of people want. I'm part of a crowd who did not want "trophies" in console games because it took away from games being fun to checking off a list but I'm out-voted.

You're only going to drive yourself nuts and angry if you dwell on what the masses want. Many changes were made that I don't like but... oh well... that's how it is. Those in charge are mostly to blame for enabling the "devolution".

I don't I just think you drastically misunderstand what it is the "hardcore" playerbase wants when it comes to these topics. There will never be cooperation and there is a deep understanding of what is being demanded.

The game is tailored towards people who can't play it. 99% of content is designed around those who simply exist in the game with mythic raids/dungeons and you can argue heroic raiding as the sole things left for people who enjoy harder content.

When you try to take even more... when you knock on that last gate you won't find a community that welcomes you rather one that recalls everything that playerbase has taken.

We have seen titanforging we already know how this plays out. I will jealously protect what little is left but should it fall... should things like covenants persist or god forbid be built upon my only hope is that when that last 1% falls and everything is simply given to the playerbase begging for it that it leaves such a bitter taste in their mouth it becomes a curse.

[Necromantic]

I don't I just think you drastically misunderstand what it is the "hardcore" playerbase wants when it comes to these topics. There will never be cooperation and there is a deep understanding of what is being demanded.

The game is tailored towards people who can't play it. 99% of content is designed around those who simply exist in the game with mythic raids/dungeons and you can argue heroic raiding as the sole things left for people who enjoy harder content.

When you try to take even more... when you knock on that last gate you won't find a community that welcomes you rather one that recalls everything that playerbase has taken.

We have seen titanforging we already know how this plays out. I will jealously protect what little is left but should it fall... should things like covenants persist or god forbid be built upon my only hope is that when that last 1% falls and everything is simply given to the playerbase begging for it that it leaves such a bitter taste in their mouth it becomes a curse.

I don't misunderstand, I've just seen people on both sides of the spectrum ask for some of the same things.

Some want to be hardcore but want some more simple aspects to wean out those tasks they find mundane. Those tasks that are not hard by any means, that don't add any kind of challenge but are simply annoying.

[Crimson Spears]

I don't misunderstand, I've just seen people on both sides of the spectrum ask for some of the same things.

Some want to be hardcore but want some more simple aspects to wean out those tasks they find mundane. Those tasks that are not hard by any means, that don't add any kind of challenge but are simply annoying.

ive never seen both sides of the spectrum. I would be interested to know where you have seen high end players ask for grinds or bullshit like the covenants.

[Necromantic]

ive never seen both sides of the spectrum. I would be interested to know where you have seen high end players ask for grinds or bullshit like the covenants.

Leaving covenants out of it as that's something nobody at all asked for. Reading several forums for so long, you see both sides ask for things or have certain stances you wouldn't expect. More-so on the official forums where you can verify the person to their opinion.

As for me personally, I'm on the fence. I'm fine with grinding, I just don't like BORING. And I say boring while having the Insane title. I'm not always bored when grinding but saving turtles from seagulls made me yawn.

[Zantera]

The whole 'turning the game towards casuals' really started with Wotlk which ended up being one of the most beloved expansions in general.

[Beowolf]

Its incredibly casual friendly, the solo content and ability to do the end game without a group is whats killing wow.

[Crimson Spears]

Leaving covenants out of it as that's something nobody at all asked for. Reading several forums for so long, you see both sides ask for things or have certain stances you wouldn't expect. More-so on the official forums where you can verify the person to their opinion.

As for me personally, I'm on the fence. I'm fine with grinding, I just don't like BORING. And I say boring while having the Insane title. I'm not always bored when grinding but saving turtles from seagulls made me yawn.

I mean you don't though and I think you know that just like how massive amounts of people praised covenants for letting them have " unique rpg choices"

The problem with grinding is attaching it to challenge less content. To make conduits, ap, and torghast difficult enough for a player like me to enjoy would make it impossible for the majority of the playerbase.

Blizzard has shown for three years now they can not accomplish making it interesting and simply design for engagement metrics.

[Necromantic]

I mean you don't though and I think you know that just like how massive amounts of people praised covenants for letting them have " unique rpg choices"

The problem with grinding is attaching it to challenge less content. To make conduits, ap, and torghast difficult enough for a player like me to enjoy would make it impossible for the majority of the playerbase.

Blizzard has shown for three years now they can not accomplish making it interesting and simply design for engagement metrics.

I wonder if they can not or will not.

[Crimson Spears]

I wonder if they can not or will not.

I have to imagine can not. Its been arguably since mop they have been trying to add to the games modes starting with mops scenarios. Each one with the exception of mage tower and mythic+( though arguably that is just dungeons again) has failed.

scenarios, warfronts, visions, and now torghast. They have consistently failed. It is why I am getting tired of hearing about their "visions" I would rather they reflect on their success rate.

[Necromantic]

I have to imagine can not. Its been arguably since mop they have been trying to add to the games modes starting with mops scenarios. Each one with the exception of mage tower and mythic+( though arguably that is just dungeons again) has failed.

scenarios, warfronts, visions, and now torghast. They have consistently failed. It is why I am getting tired of hearing about their "visions" I would rather they reflect on their success rate.

Most of those did suck but (I may be alone here)... I kinda like visions. I won't say why because it just enrages my fellow members of the rio community.