9.1 seems to be addressing the casual gearing concerns

[Echocho]

That changes literally nothing about my opinion. Playing the game to get gear is like working for the work instead of the pay.

That all depends on how you view your work. I really enjoy my work, I wouldn't substitute higher salary for a less satisfying job. Sure the pay is nice, it's even necessary otherwise I'd be homeless and starving but the reason I enjoy going to work isn't the money, it's because it's fun.

[Wingspan]

This is so stupid xd check wowprogress and see the latest Mythic Denathrius kills, what helped those guilds to kill him? you guessed right, the best gear, unless you stupidly think that every guild out there can kill mythic Denathrius with 220 ilvl or so which was the average ilvl that Limit had.

Casuals needed better progression cause they were hitting the 200 ilvl wall super fast, but players that do mythic also need the best gear to actually complete the content cause they arent Limit/Echo (some of them dont even finish it), so next time you plan to say something this stupid, just dont, the amount of people voicing their missinformed opinion in this forum is insane and it isnt even considered trolling, unreal.

Gear requirements for defeating raid and dungeon bosses are artificial because (now follow me here because it may be hard to grasp) they are tuned around expected gear levels.

So if gear was not a primary reward for playing then (hang with me and I’ll try not to go too fast) the raid and dungeon bosses would be tuned around that fact.

The only reason that ANY raid ever required ANY gear upgrades is because the tuning was based on it... and there is no reason that it must be done that way. But you knew that, right?

In a system like that, you could simulate gear increases through temporary enhancements (like flasks or drums or whatever). You could make them craftable and you could even make them more powerful from month to month to simulate better crafting skill and to give lesser skilled players the “catch up gear” effect that allows them to get past the bosses that they normally would not.

You would still have progression through raids and dungeons, it would make professions useful, it would be easier for designers to balance around and it would never cause item level bloat and a slew of other issues that exist around gearing.

The only real problem with a system like this is getting someone like you to grasp it.

[arkanon]

That all depends on how you view your work. I really enjoy my work, I wouldn't substitute higher salary for a less satisfying job. Sure the pay is nice, it's even necessary otherwise I'd be homeless and starving but the reason I enjoy going to work isn't the money, it's because it's fun.

Strange, because i have suggested EXACTLY this system in this thread (maybe one of the other 300 'casuals need more loot' threads), and it was immediately shot down by the "casual" community. Is there some contradiction or confusion among the casual players about what they actually want?

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That all depends on how you view your work. I really enjoy my work, I wouldn't substitute higher salary for a less satisfying job. Sure the pay is nice, it's even necessary otherwise I'd be homeless and starving but the reason I enjoy going to work isn't the money, it's because it's fun.

Would you do your current job for less money?

[Frozenbro]

Gear requirements for defeating raid and dungeon bosses are artificial because (now follow me here because it may be hard to grasp) they are tuned around expected gear levels.

So if gear was not a primary reward for playing then (hang with me and I’ll try not to go too fast) the raid and dungeon bosses would be tuned around that fact.

The only reason that ANY raid ever required ANY gear upgrades is because the tuning was based on it... and there is no reason that it must be done that way. But you knew that, right?

In a system like that, you could simulate gear increases through temporary enhancements (like flasks or drums or whatever). You could make them craftable and you could even make them more powerful from month to month to simulate better crafting skill and to give lesser skilled players the “catch up gear” effect that allows them to get past the bosses that they normally would not.

You would still have progression through raids and dungeons, it would make professions useful, it would be easier for designers to balance around and it would never cause item level bloat and a slew of other issues that exist around gearing.

The only real problem with a system like this is getting someone like you to grasp it.

So you would rather change the system completely (system that has been that way for 14 years) instead of giving the casuals more meaningful progression (which the proposed 9.1 system achieves in many points) without affecting other areas of the game, then you wonder why blizz doesnt listen to feedback like yours xd hilarious.

[rhorle]

In a system like that, you could simulate gear increases through temporary enhancements (like flasks or drums or whatever). You could make them craftable and you could even make them more powerful from month to month to simulate better crafting skill and to give lesser skilled players the “catch up gear” effect that allows them to get past the bosses that they normally would not.

But why get rid of gear when you are just going to simulate gear? And then require players to collect/buy/craft/whatever that temporary "simulated gear" in order to do harder content? All you are doing is suggest that Blizzard changes gear to gear and then give it out through means other instances. That would create an even bigger skill gap between groups of players as well.

Since unskilled or "not as skilled" players will have to basically do nothing until they get the month to month simulated gear somehow that then allows them to progress over their skill wall. Gaining gear as defeating is a natural way to progress beyond that wall because you slowly get rewarded as you do the content. Blizzard then follows up with nerfs, secondary power gains/changes, etc to help that progress happen in a more natural manner.

Your system wouldn't have progression through raids and dungeons because with out gear there is nothing to progress. That is why raids required a gear level and were tuned around a certain gear level. To create progression. Your system is replacing that with progression through crafting, temporary enhancements, and "month to month" waits. This was already tried in WoW though at smaller scale with the resistence checks. I don't think anyone hated having to stop progression in Black Temple because they didn't have a shadow resist set for every single raid member. Even though they had the gear/skill otherwise to kill the boss.

The problem isn't that you have to convince people to grasp it. The problem is getting people to look beyond a one solution that fits their views perfectly. Because the health of the game depends on a whole range of different players.

[Crimson Spears]

But why get rid of gear when you are just going to simulate gear? And then require players to collect/buy/craft/whatever that temporary "simulated gear" in order to do harder content? All you are doing is suggest that Blizzard changes gear to gear and then give it out through means other instances. That would create an even bigger skill gap between groups of players as well.

Since unskilled or "not as skilled" players will have to basically do nothing until they get the month to month simulated gear somehow that then allows them to progress over their skill wall. Gaining gear as defeating is a natural way to progress beyond that wall because you slowly get rewarded as you do the content. Blizzard then follows up with nerfs, secondary power gains/changes, etc to help that progress happen in a more natural manner.

Your system wouldn't have progression through raids and dungeons because with out gear there is nothing to progress. That is why raids required a gear level and were tuned around a certain gear level. To create progression. Your system is replacing that with progression through crafting, temporary enhancements, and "month to month" waits. This was already tried in WoW though at smaller scale with the resistence checks. I don't think anyone hated having to stop progression in Black Temple because they didn't have a shadow resist set for every single raid member. Even though they had the gear/skill otherwise to kill the boss.

The problem isn't that you have to convince people to grasp it. The problem is getting people to look beyond a one solution that fits their views perfectly. Because the health of the game depends on a whole range of different players.

What if they played the game because they enjoyed it... like what wow was before it went full skinner box in legion?

I feel like that point is always overlooked... you talk about doing dull content for power over and over again but I feel like the main goal of playing a game has escaped you.

[Frozenbro]

What if they played the game because they enjoyed it... like what wow was before it went full skinner box in legion?

There was a time when WoW PvE content didnt reward gear? not that i remember, and yes i mean raids and dungeons, actual high end pve, before some1 comes with the horse beaten to death called Mage Tower.

[rhorle]

What if they played the game because they enjoyed it... like what wow was before it went full skinner box in legion? I feel like that point is always overlooked... you talk about doing dull content for power over and over again but I feel like the main goal of playing a game has escaped you.

Legion wasn't the first expansion to add gear progression through raids. I feel like you are again taking a statement out of context to start some weird debate. Players raided primarily for progression even back in Vanilla. Did they have fun along the way? Sure. It is why they still did it when content was on farm but things were more relaxed then when things were being done for progression.

The system now, or the system that poster proposed, has nothing to do with playing the game for fun. Or your buzzword skinner box label.

[Crimson Spears]

There was a time when WoW PvE content didnt reward gear? not that i remember, and yes i mean raids and dungeons, actual high end pve, before some1 comes with the horse beaten to death called Mage Tower.

I mean that people are defending terrible content because they want a reward system for what seems like no more reason then having a reward system.

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Legion wasn't the first expansion to add gear progression through raids. I feel like you are again taking a statement out of context to start some weird debate. Players raided primarily for progression even back in Vanilla. Did they have fun along the way? Sure. It is why they still did it when content was on farm but things were more relaxed then when things were being done for progression.

The system now, or the system that poster proposed, has nothing to do with playing the game for fun. Or your buzzword skinner box label.

I feel like your unable to properly talk about abstract concepts without them being spoon feed to you...so im going to talk around you.

[rhorle]

I feel like your unable to properly talk about abstract concepts without them being spoon feed to you...so im going to talk around you.

Why is it that you always focus on me rather then those abstract concepts then?

[Dracullus]

There is one thing I don't get with this whole "casual need more gear" problem. I have played patches where I progressed and patches where I went ultra casual.

When I progressed, sure, gear was important (although bis wasn't my goal, just beating content), you are doing content where you must focus to complete it, every bit of power is useful.

But when I went ultra casual (or finish my goals), gear become totally pointless (and pushing it waste of time) when it is enough to rolfstomp open content. After that without progression goals in PVE/PVP only stuff that matters are collectibles since they are not going away.

Right know you can quickly get to 200, which gives you freedom to crush mobs and most rares in open world. Would some currency to farm encourage ultra casuals to push for 207->213->220->226? Somehow I doubt that.

[chiddie]

Having a higher difficulty give better rewards is not making the game needlessly fun deprived. It is giving a reward equal to the challenge. Of course it isn't a job but that still doesn't mean hobbies have to be easy. Or everything needs to be reward super easily. There is a reason why video games like Dark Souls are praised for being super difficult. People like all sorts of things so stop trying peg game design into your narrow view of what should and should not be.

Please not DS comparison again.

DS is a single player game. It’s difficult but it’s honest in its difficulty (unlike WoW) and you have not to rely on others to do its difficult content. Also, big SURPRISE, there are NO timers everywhere and you can progress at your own pace trying different strategies and improving.

It is a success for the exact opposite of WoW: you can beat it however you like in the time you like and noone fokkin cares about how you do it. And you won’t receive any extra for auto gimping yourself to /flex by running it naked or level 1 or with a broken sword, etc.

WoW and DS are in distant galaxies.

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Right know you can quickly get to 200, which gives you freedom to crush mobs and most rares in open world. Would some currency to farm encourage ultra casuals to push for 207->213->220->226? Somehow I doubt that.

If the pace is 1 piece every 1 century of farming whatever new currency Blizzard has in store, yes, no one will be encouraged for sure.

[rhorle]

DS is a single player game. It’s difficult but it’s honest in its difficulty (unlike WoW) and you have not to rely on others to do its difficult content. Also, big SURPRISE, there are NO timers everywhere and you can progress at your own pace trying different strategies and improving.

Of course it is a different type of game. I never said it was. The thing is though different games exist because different people like different things. Which is entirely why WoW doesn't have to be a game that fits everyone. If it no longer fits a player that player should stop playing and find a game that fits what they want. WoW is a multiplayer game so of course you will have to rely on others at some point.

Why try and fundamentally change a game to suit a play style that goes against the fundamental design of that game?

[Echocho]

Would some currency to farm encourage ultra casuals to push for 207->213->220->226? Somehow I doubt that.

It has on multiple occasions during WoWs 15 year history. It does in other MMORPGs as we speak.
Your inability to understand something doesn't make it false.

[chiddie]

Of course it is a different type of game. I never said it was. The thing is though different games exist because different people like different things. Which is entirely why WoW doesn't have to be a game that fits everyone. If it no longer fits a player that player should stop playing and find a game that fits what they want. WoW is a multiplayer game so of course you will have to rely on others at some point.

Why try and fundamentally change a game to suit a play style that goes against the fundamental design of that game?

I can agree with this but let’s not compare the 2 games, they are on different planes.

One is tuned for solo, the other for groups. They are difficult in a different way. I love Souls but I don’t like that much grouped content in WoW. Not because I don’t like grouped content but because I don’t like timers.

[Dracullus]

It has on multiple occasions during WoWs 15 year history. It does in other MMORPGs as we speak.
Your inability to understand something doesn't make it false.

Currency to stable farm heroic/mythic raid specific pieces? For ultra casuals? Could you remind me which patch it was?

[Echocho]

Currency to stable farm heroic/mythic raid specific pieces? For ultra casuals? Could you remind me which patch it was?

The best gear in the game has never been accessible to the casual playerbase, nor should it. The second best gear has on multiple occasions, heck 9.1 will give them access to gear just 2 iLvls below the second best. Patch 3.3.0 for example gave players access to the second best gear in the game for most slots either through badges, crafting or the Vault of Archavon.

[Dzonathan]

Currency to stable farm heroic/mythic raid specific pieces? For ultra casuals? Could you remind me which patch it was?

Badge gear in TBC/WotLK
Valor/Justice points in Cata/MoP

[Crimson Spears]

Why is it that you always focus on me rather then those abstract concepts then?

Because you struggle to grasp the concepts being talked about and then derail the thread by taking it on bizarre tangents. The point being made is people supporting the current system are not supporting any kind of content they enjoy. The content is irrelevant to their apparent interest. They want a way to see numbers get bigger. Bringing up the dungeons drop gear isn't relevant and leads to a pointless tangent.

It is simply easier to nip you in the bud early then spend three pages slowly explaining what is actually being discussed to you.

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Badge gear in TBC/WotLK
Valor/Justice points in Cata/MoP

I mean badge gear was kind of awful in tbc barring the sunwell patch. Sure you could plug a few pieces you didn't get from heroic dungeons but people seem to only focus on sunwell when talking about tbc...

WotLk had passible gear though unless I am drastically recall the expansion differently it took weeks to get items if you didn't raid and they never were the best version of the item.

[Mystikal]

Not always - recall in the first tier of Wrath you had "hard mode" boss fights that were just variations on the same fight, which rewarded the same gear but also achievements (and an exclusive mount). This is obv not the standard, as this was immediately removed and never done again after Ulduar (not to my knowledge at least). I'm not sure why it was removed.

You've honestly got me thinking now - did the Trial of the Grand Crusader (heroic clear with no wipes) reward a higher ilvl or not? It has been that long that I actually cannot remember!