Do you think Garrosh would have actually burned down Teldrassil?

[Knight Meta]

you must be rly in dreamland to fantasy like that

First of: I think the word you were looking for was "fantasize"

Secondly: No. I don't need to fantasize nor be in any dreamland. It's ignorant people such as yourself which is the main reason why bad characters in any form of media gets attention. Once Garrosh was brought more into the spotlight as of WoTLK (As in Outland he was... Mostly okay) it was clear that they had one direction they went with regarding this former Warchief; "Angry Orc with daddy issues" - he is so stuck up his ass about how his father once ruled a great horde while at the same time being mad that his father ruined it and brought shame to their people. You can't get a more one-dimensional character than Garrosh and the sooner you people realize that; the sooner we might start seing better structured characters in books / games / series.

[TheFirstOnes]

Sure, why not? Orcs need coal for their BBQS too, you know?

Do you not realize just how valuable the wood is for the Horde, especially Garrosh's horde? Say what you may about the True and Iron Horde's, but thanks to wood, food, tech blue-prints, and other resources like that, the Orcs of the Iron Horde were literally sent centuries ahead of their time, into the damn industrial age ffs. Why would they burn the shit they need to survive?

[Zuben]

If he saw it as a military target, sure. As it was, most of kaldorei military wasn't in the tree, so it was a civilian target. No point in burning it. Garrosh was a more conventional leader after all, so victory through might and strategy is more his game than tampering with his enemies' morale like Sylv does.

Do you not realize just how valuable the wood is for the Horde, especially Garrosh's horde? Say what you may about the True and Iron Horde's, but thanks to wood, food, tech blue-prints, and other resources like that, the Orcs of the Iron Horde were literally sent centuries ahead of their time, into the damn industrial age ffs. Why would they burn the shit they need to survive?

I don't disagree that wood is of immense value to orcs, but fact stands they cut down a whole bunch of Ashenvale trees in Cataclysm and just left them there to taunt the night elves.

[TheFirstOnes]

No, he would've conquered it.
Enslave the Nelves and use the tree as a base, or farm it for resources.

Sylvanas burned the tree to feed more souls to the Maw, Garrosh wouldn't have such a goal.

Yeah. As much as I hate the fact that Blizzard fucked over Garrosh's character, I DO love the fact that he was still a very much resourceful leader. Hell, the Iron Horde was honestly going great till the Legion + us fucked it up.

- - - Updated - - -

If he saw it as a military target, sure. As it was, most of kaldorei military wasn't in the tree, so it was a civilian target. No point in burning it. Garrosh was a more conventional leader after all, so victory through might and strategy is more his game than tampering with his enemies' morale like Sylv does.

Sometimes, he does aim for the Morale BS, like with Theramore and its citizens, but at the same time, he did that as a sign of telling the Alliance "Hey, get the fuck off our land", and this is after Baine's warning btw.

[Zuben]

Sometimes, he does aim for the Morale BS, like with Theramore and its citizens, but at the same time, he did that as a sign of telling the Alliance "Hey, get the fuck off our land", and this is after Baine's warning btw.

If Tides of War portrayed it like that then okay (never read that book), but I always saw it as a tactical move, luring enemy leaders into one spot where you can obliterate them all along with a pesky stronghold. He even allowed civilians to evacuate (only to grab them later for whatever purpose, maybe that morality business; I never saw any point in that other than to underline just how wicked the True Horde was).

[TheFirstOnes]

If Tides of War portrayed it like that then okay (never read that book), but I always saw it as a tactical move, luring enemy leaders into one spot where you can obliterate them all along with a pesky stronghold. He even allowed civilians to evacuate (only to grab them later for whatever purpose, maybe that morality business; I never saw any point in that other than to underline just how wicked the True Horde was).

I always liked the idea that he kept the citizens there because of 2 reasons:

A. He wanted to scare/intimidate the Alliance by using Theramore's citizens as either corpse "trophies" that hang around Orgrimmar's buildings, or slaves that are forced to fight/kill one-another for the Orc's and their amusement.

And B. They liked tried to fight back, rather than escape, or they tried to hide, and Garrosh's men got to them first.

[Sunderella]

Do you not realize just how valuable the wood is for the Horde, especially Garrosh's horde? Say what you may about the True and Iron Horde's, but thanks to wood, food, tech blue-prints, and other resources like that, the Orcs of the Iron Horde were literally sent centuries ahead of their time, into the damn industrial age ffs. Why would they burn the shit they need to survive?

The Iron Horde was centuries ahead of their time, that is true, but mostly because of their use of iron and explosive stuff. Otherwise, they would have called themselves The Wood Horde. And no, I'm not trying to be funny (unlike in my previous comment). Wood would have been a resource yeah, but just look at the Iron Horde stuff: mostly iron, explosives and metal. They even had their own fully fledged foundry for mass producing weapons.

Wood is there yeah, but they had no advanced applications for it. The rebuilt Orgrimmar in CATA had metal as a more prominent feature than wood. In fact, I would say that even stone was more important for the Horde than wood. Sure Troll and Tauren architectures are just wooden huts, but Orc stuff has been made mostly from stone and metal for a while now. For any wood needs, Azshara and Ashenvale would provide wood in a more convenient way.

[Rozz]

Many people described the burning as Sylvanas going "full Garrosh", so yes. He bombed Theramore, was trying to kill allies due to their 'weakness' and lack of 'loyalty', and tormented prisoners of war. At that point, burning a capital he found weak for whatever reason would just be the natural progression of his madness. He literally helped the Iron Horde to stay on track conquering and genociding the Draenei, before moving on to repeat the move on Azeroth. Mop and WoD Garrosh is every bit as ridiculous as BfA/SL Sylvanas. His tactical mind and consideration is just as memeable as Sylvanas' 4D Chess machinations.

[callipygoustp]

I do and for that reason I carry a box of matches with me every time I visit the zone.

[Daronokk]

But yeah, the I'VE SEEN MOUNTAINS OF SKULLS AND RIVERS OF BLOOD Garrosh sounds like a guy who would burn any tree, every tree, anytime.

That is Yshaarj' corruption talking. Just look at his model.

Long story short, Garrosh isn't evil like Sylvanas.

Garrosh is more of an antihero like Illidan, a morally grey character that can do good and evil but in the end tries to accomplish something good from their perspective.

[Hctaz]

I honestly have zero idea, but only because I've seen two sides of Garrosh the same way I've seen two sides of Sylvanas.

If you had asked me whether or not Sylvanas would burn down the tree before she did burn down the tree, I wouldn't know for certain. More likely, I would have guessed she would have wanted to use the bodies to continue the population of the Forsaken, and I also do not believe she would have killed innocent people. The Forsaken's stance in Classic was questionable, but Sylvanas made it seem pretty clear that she would only attack those who posed a direct threat to the Forsaken themselves.

It was pretty much like a beehive. Don't come near us and we will continue to build up our hive for war against the Lich King whom literally nobody on the planet would have batted an eye at should Sylvanas declare openly that she was going to kill.

But Garrosh also started off as this honorable orc who threw people off cliffs for harming innocent children, took his victory against Cairne as a loss because it was all a ploy set up by somebody else, and who took his allies words to heart. They took his character and decided that he would snap due to seeing these other races and the previous orc leaders themselves laying in a miserable desert due to the sins of the past, but I feel like the way he handled that situation made zero sense to his character. He was big and flashy. He would have stood on top of the highest hill in Org and shouted in opposition, not hidden away like a Sith Lord plotting secretly.

[bloodkin]

First of: I think the word you were looking for was "fantasize"

Secondly: No. I don't need to fantasize nor be in any dreamland. It's ignorant people such as yourself which is the main reason why bad characters in any form of media gets attention. Once Garrosh was brought more into the spotlight as of WoTLK (As in Outland he was... Mostly okay) it was clear that they had one direction they went with regarding this former Warchief; "Angry Orc with daddy issues" - he is so stuck up his ass about how his father once ruled a great horde while at the same time being mad that his father ruined it and brought shame to their people. You can't get a more one-dimensional character than Garrosh and the sooner you people realize that; the sooner we might start seing better structured characters in books / games / series.

this is were I think a lot of garrosh apologists get confused: they actually believe is anger is justified somehow and that he still retained some sense of honor. The thing is, his anger was all his own and never justified, and in particular his anger towards thrall. Thrall chose him for a number of reasons, but garrosh had ample opportunity to turn down the mantle of warchief if he really didn't thin he could do it, and he had more than enough advisors and veterans around to help him lead the horde, but he didn't listen. blizz wrote him in a way that made him dumber than a wet bag of rocks. "you made me this way" excuse is so weak, he had more than enough tools to do the job but still chose to fuck it all up, and then go all apeshit after all his shenanigans blew up in his face. Not gonna say that thrall wasn't wrong, cause he was (at least 3 other people were better suited as warchief, but this is blizz level writing after all). And then there's the thing with honor. He never had it, and he knew it, but always tried to create a facade about it, as if he wasn't an honorless warmonger. where's the honor in bombing theramore unprovoked with wat was at the time a superweapon? I'm sure apologists will rush to defend actions like that for whatever fucked up reasoning they might have, but it was not an appropriate reaction to the camp taurajo attacks.

[alt-ithist]

Yikes on all that.

On topic, kind of depends on writing. There is a large difference between Garrosh in Cata, where he tended to behave more "honorably" and seemed to avoid unnecessary civilian casualities, and MoP Garrosh, maddogging everyone and caring little about honor.

Why do people keep bringing this up when it’s intact not true. “Honorable Garrosh in Cataclysm” was one quest chain in stonetalon. The rest of Cataclysm he was still a bloodthirsty conqueror who’s goal was ‘all will serve the horde of be hurried beneath it’.

[Arikara]

Pfft. The real reason that Garrosh punted that one goblin off a cliff in Stonetalon wasn't because of Garrosh's supposed honor; it was because he hadn't given the order.

Garrosh makes it very clear what he thinks of those who oppose him; he views them solely as enemies to be conquered. Those who are in any way hostile to him are free to be destroyed ruthlessly.

Would he actually give the order to kill defenseless civilians? Absolutely, if he thought it would further his goals or remove them as a threat. Would he still do it if he gains nothing from it and has no reason to think they'll come after him later? Perhaps not, but he has every reason to think those things.

Like Sylvanas, Garrosh was a crazy warmonger. He was nothing more than a rabid animal that had to be put down. Those who argue otherwise do so from a position of thinking that his over-the-top nonsense brought something 'cool' to the game that was otherwise lacking, which is not an unreasonable standpoint, but the man himself is utterly despicable and inexcusable.

[alt-ithist]

A valid military target that had been the launching point for Alliance offensives across the continent, resulting in the destruction of at least three Horde encampments. Also, he was fully aware the civilian populace had been evacuated.

Do you remember what he did with those evacuated civilians? They were turned into target dummies in Orgrimmar.

[AcidicSyn]

I think it depends entirely on several different factors.

If we're talking a world where the same Garrosh we fought in SoO won the fight and continued as Warchief then lol yes, he absolutely would have burned Teldrassil, and laughed at the blaze. He also would have killed Malf without a second thought, rather than tell Saurfang to do it and leave before its even done.

If we are talking about an uncorrupted Garrosh though, then I think it would depend entirely on if Teldrassil was a military target or not, or rather, if Garrosh saw it as one. Pre corruption his obsession with honor, glory, and orcish pride define him. He would have wanted (I believe) to have what he considered a total victory, an honorable victory. (emphasis on the what he considered part).

Granted, that's all if the night elves offered their complete and unconditional surrender. If they kept fighting, then fire the catapults and round up the civies for the pits and target practice.

All that said, I don't know that Garrosh would have been much better for the night elves. Though it is possible that an uncorrupted Garrosh could respect the Night Elves as a worthy foe, but that would require the night elves to remember how to fight the way they did when they fought his father.

[Florena]

It depends at what point in Garrosh's career I suppose. The garrosh that executed a commander for nuking the druid place in Stonetalon, not so much. Garrosh by the end of MOP? Sure I wouldn't doubt it one bit. Early on he wanted Ashenvale's resources for the horde/orcs, so maybe he'd have not nuked it in order to try and claim Teldrassil's resources too if he could.

[mickybrighteyes]

Doesn't really matter much. The writing team just likes to asspull all sort of weird shit for plot. Realistic justifications be damned... Like everyone points out Garrosh bombed Theremore while everyone kind of ignores that basically all the Alliance pressence in Durotar, the Barrens (northern border aside), and stone talon are all reinforced and supported by Theremore.

torching Teldrassil in BFA was just there to drum up interest and generate shock value and the views/ideals/characteristics of whoever was in charge at that point in the story would be irrelevant or made invalid with later retcon... er i mean "lore revelations"

[cparle87]

Do you remember what he did with those evacuated civilians? They were turned into target dummies in Orgrimmar.

Irrelevant. He did not nuke civilians. Capturing and torturing them later is a completely different war crime, but he did not nuke them.

[Alanar]

Garrosh would have burned Teldrassil, burned Stormwind, collapsed Ironforge, imploded Exodar, and manabombed Gilneas (even if it was uninhabited), and filled Gnomeregan with extra radiation for good measure.

This.

He was out for blood from the get go. He could not even hold himself in the violet citadel and wanted varian head.

Any one believing he would do less then Sylvanas is delusional, he would only do it differently.

He would even announe if he went for stormwind and probably get stopped or killed there if that played out.

He always was an idiot in my eyes.