Assuming WOTLK Classic happens, I have some questions

[Stickiler]

The TBC deluxe edition that they are selling for $100 New Zealand dollars disagrees with the part I bolded.

It doesn't disagree at all, paying for additional items is completely different to requiring people to purchase the expansion. You can play TBC without paying a cent beyond the sub fee.

[Azerate]

The TBC deluxe edition that they are selling for $100 New Zealand dollars disagrees with the part I bolded.

"deluxe edition" is only a fancy name created so it makes sense to sell it on TBC release. It's literally just a pack of cosmetic items, the game is free.

[Restors]

The Battle For The Undercity was removed with the Ulduar patch if I remember right and no explaination was given for why. It was an important event because it helped set the stage for the faction conflict that dominated the next two expansions.

That quest/event were removed with patch 4.0.3.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Unholy is better than frost after the first tier. If it wasn’t on private servers than either the tuning was off or private server players are terrible. Wmo logs at the time were so heavily favored towards unholy it wasn’t even close. Not to mention a lot of the bosses favor things like unholy a great rot damage(which also is a large st increase) iirc icc unholy and frost were at least close pre-shadowmourne; with unholy with bryntroll being slightly ahead of frost.

Again, this is not about how it was in the original WotLK with constant changes between each patch, but about how it will be with 3.3.5 talents from the start...

Unholy is still fine in Ulduar compared to other classes (Lol Warriors), but why would you play it, when FDK is so good that it's the most stacked Dps class in Ulduar together with Locks?

[ThrashMetalFtw]

I mean. You're wrong and that's AOK.

I mean, no. Just no.

Bookmark this post and come back whenever WotLK Classic releases, and you finally realize just how wrong you are. Or just go to any WotLK private server right now and try to compete with a FDK (or Unholy) as Blood Dps

Some people just cannot be taught...

[Thage]

The biggest one right now for me is Achievements. I know up to now, the point has been to keep the "Classic" games separate from Modern WoW (currently Shadowlands). Should players have separate achievements in Wrath Classic or have their achievements from the live game migrated to Wrath? I'm also being mindful accountwide achievements weren't introduced until Cata which is a whole other issue in and of itself. I think separate achievements is most likely but if Blizzard could figure out a way to have an integrated Achievements system, that would be very interesting.

If they maintain their philosophy of keeping Classic and Modern WoW separate, they'll have two separate achievement pools tied to your account.

Northrend Flying...how you got it on alts changed a few times during the course of the expansion and I'll give Blizzard credit for trying. You could buy Tome of Northrend Flying with your main and send it to a level 68-70 Alt to learn Northrend Flying. I don't remember if it was in Cata or the last content update in which you just automatically learned it at level 70. How should that be handled this time around?

If BC is any indication, they'll use the method from 3.3, as BC didn't nerf riding to level 30 until late in the expansion.

Heirlooms...I know this is a sensitive subject for many. Initially introduced in Wrath, they could be given to alts to boost leveling speed. More types of heirlooms were added in subsequent expansions including items to increase the level cap for them. In Wrath, they were locked behind Argent Tournament Dailies (or PvP) but when Gold Heirloom Vendors were added to UC and IF in Cata, they became more common. My question is should Gold Heirloom vendors be added in Wrath or keep it as-is?

IIRC heirlooms were buyable with Emblems in Dalaran in the Silver Covenant/Sunreaver sanctums.

TBC Classic's Prepatch gives a pretty good indicator for what to expect in regards to DKs: They'll be made available two weeks before Northrend goes live. Players were limited to one DK per sever and you had to have a level 55+ char on the server you wanted a DK on when Wrath was current. Both limitations were removed a few expansions later. Should these restrictions be included or not?

I'd say yes, those restrictions should remain in place as they were part of the WotLK experience.

Speaking of DKs. We know Blood (originally DPS) and Frost (Originally Tank) were swapped as DPS or Tank Specs with Wrath's first content update. I assume they'll start as Blood Tank and Frost DPS but what if Blizzard gave players the option of playing them as Blood DPS or Frost Tank? Maybe add an NPC to Acherus who could flip those two specs to DPS or Tank for Gold. Could be fun =O

I was playing Blood DPS as far in as 3.3 because Blood had great cleaving potential in dungeons*. The three specs were not given firm roles and forced to pick between tanking or DPSing until the Cataclysm talent revamp, although some specs excelled better than others as tanks or DPS.

Wintergrap...whew. Blizzard learned fast launching the game without a cap was a dumb idea and it made the outdoor BG a lagfest until they added a hard cap and then kept shrinking it. What should the cap be? I think 120 per faction would be a good start (240 total) but it can be lowered to 40 per faction (80 total) if needed. Once it started, everyone else gets teleported to Dalaran or something until a side wins. For those who don't know or remember, the faction that won WG earned the right for their faction to do the 10 or 25-man raid in WG Fortress. Until the next WG match anyways. If WG changed hands while you were raiding, you didn't have to worry about being booted though.

This depends on if they want WG to feel like it did in WotLK or if they want to take advantage of the improvements in technology since 2008.

Stand of the Ancients was introduced in Wrath but was retired a few years back. Should it return?

Yes. It's a shitty BG but it's part of WotLK.

Almost Forgot: Can we all agree Battle for Undercity MUST be included?

Why is this even a question? The only reason the post-Wrathgate Battle for Undercity was removed is because of irreconcilable problems the Cataclysm update caused with the Battle for Undercity phase. These issues are nonexistent in WotLK and thus there's no logical reason to remove one of the storytelling hallmarks of the expansion.

*Yes, Frost and Unholy were better, but outside a raid context you can do perfectly fine as Blood DPS.

[Celarent]

[*]Wintergrap...whew. Blizzard learned fast launching the game without a cap was a dumb idea and it made the outdoor BG a lagfest until they added a hard cap and then kept shrinking it. What should the cap be? I think 120 per faction would be a good start (240 total) but it can be lowered to 40 per faction (80 total) if needed. Once it started, everyone else gets teleported to Dalaran or something until a side wins. For those who don't know or remember, the faction that won WG earned the right for their faction to do the 10 or 25-man raid in WG Fortress. Until the next WG match anyways. If WG changed hands while you were raiding, you didn't have to worry about being booted though.

Like many of Wrath's design elements, pre-3.2 Wintergrasp was unorthodox and barely controlled in terms of system performance, but immersive and exciting because it was organic, dynamic and unpredictable.

Before the queue and cap, players called out in general to organize in raids and players manually entered through portals in the Silver Enclave and Sunreaver Sanctuary. Before a battle's start time, as the team grew in size players would chill or mess around, playing with toy items and jumping on furniture to burn off pent-up energy. Then the battle began and people would charge with the sound of dozens of characters teleporting. Neither side knew how many the other faction had deployed nor where groups were heading, be it to defend the keep in gun emplacements in the north or at workshops and towers in the west, east and south. Being outnumbered wasn't ideal but stacks of Tenacity were entertaining to watch in action regardless of which side they favored, and an absence of size regulation only added to the thrill. The final keep assault almost always brought computers to a crawl, and the nostalgia argument isn't as strong there — although I wonder how differently today's computers and broadband would handle it — but the other issue, and the one that likely sunk free-for-all Wintergrasp, was server lag.

And there, Classic allows Blizzard to do the impossible by designing with hindsight, and instancing/sharding/whatever an active Wintergrasp battle to separate it completely. The fight can get as crazy as participants want without affecting the rest of the realm. Trim, proper and controlled queue-'n'-cap Wintergrasp was cautious and less interesting — and Wintergrasp, not SotA or IoC, is the one people remember. It's worth recreating in the original, ungainly, monstrously fun form.

[Bigbazz]

I'm not that excited about WOTLK, since I play Fury Warrior. They were amazing in T7 but got nerfed in T8 and didn't recover until T9/10, without that tiered balance progression and the game launching on the end patch Fury will spend half the expansion as just plain mediocre, which is really not that enticing for a spec that was exceptional for most of the original run.

The balance progression of WOTLK as it was is part of the fun, some specs being overpowered at launch was part of the fun.

[Rathwirt]

I just want to earn The Immortal for a second time.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Guess I should elaborate since it appears you're confused. Me saying you're wrong is based entirely on your assertion that Blood was a meme/leveling spec. It most certainly was not.

I love when super mediocre players act all smug when it comes to decades old content they probably didn't do.

As I've said like 10 times in this thread, we are not talking about how it was back in retail WotLK, I'm sure Blood Dps was a thing back then. This entire discussion is about a potential WotLK classic, with 3.3.5 talents all the way from Naxx to RS (educated guess). And in this scenario, Blood Dps is objectively so far behind Frost and Unholy, that yes, it's considered nothing more than a meme spec. It's on the same level of performance as something like a BM Hunter, Frost Mage or Sub Rogue in PvE. All these specs could probably outperform a Warrior in t7, but why would you play it, when their alternatives are all vastly superior.

It's good for lvling, and that's it.

[Sensa1]

Not to nitpick, but frost was never really a premier DPS spec or tank spec throughout all of WoTLK. People get massively confused because of how the presences worked in WoTLK. Unholy made you move, attack faster while lowering you GCD. Blood presence made you do more damage and heal for a portion of damage done, while frost presence increased you threat generation, armor and health.

Every single spec was designed to do all three roles, and unholy was by and large the winner throughout the entirety of WoTLK. It was the best tank of the three (sans a few fights) until ICC, and was one of the best DPS specs in both AoE and ST for portions of WoTLK (until ICC). Blood scaled really well, and because of changes became a really good tank and DPS in ICC. Almost all of WoTLK tanking design was based on reducing big hits, and unholy just performed that function incredibly well. Frost was just a middling spec, caught somewhere between, but was never really "the" tank spec.

The TLDR about DKs is that presences didn't define their intended role. DK was designed to have all three specs do everything, and you could absolutely get by tanking as all three, or doing DPS as all three. There are clear winners, but they were all mostly viable.

DK's have never been as good as they were then in my opinion. I loved the presences and being able to off tank some raid bosses and tank 5 man's without the need to have 2 full gear sets (tank / dps) and also being able to level / farm and essentially never die because you could switch presences on demand depending on the situation. Presences were essentially an instant dual spec that made dk's very fun and flexible. I never enjoyed playing my dk as much in later expansions when they took the presences away.

[Xkiller9000]

Ok so Wrath of the Lich King stands as the only expansion in which I did literally...EVERYTHING there was to do from start to finish. Every raid tier, WG every day 4-6 times a day, Batte of Undercity on several alts, etc. Good times ^_^

...All that said.

I have questions about certain features introduced in Wrath:

• The biggest one right now for me is Achievements. I know up to now, the point has been to keep the "Classic" games separate from Modern WoW (currently Shadowlands). Should players have separate achievements in Wrath Classic or have their achievements from the live game migrated to Wrath? I'm also being mindful accountwide achievements weren't introduced until Cata which is a whole other issue in and of itself. I think separate achievements is most likely but if Blizzard could figure out a way to have an integrated Achievements system, that would be very interesting.
• Northrend Flying...how you got it on alts changed a few times during the course of the expansion and I'll give Blizzard credit for trying. You could buy Tome of Northrend Flying with your main and send it to a level 68-70 Alt to learn Northrend Flying. I don't remember if it was in Cata or the last content update in which you just automatically learned it at level 70. How should that be handled this time around?
• Heirlooms...I know this is a sensitive subject for many. Initially introduced in Wrath, they could be given to alts to boost leveling speed. More types of heirlooms were added in subsequent expansions including items to increase the level cap for them. In Wrath, they were locked behind Argent Tournament Dailies (or PvP) but when Gold Heirloom Vendors were added to UC and IF in Cata, they became more common. My question is should Gold Heirloom vendors be added in Wrath or keep it as-is?
• TBC Classic's Prepatch gives a pretty good indicator for what to expect in regards to DKs: They'll be made available two weeks before Northrend goes live. Players were limited to one DK per sever and you had to have a level 55+ char on the server you wanted a DK on when Wrath was current. Both limitations were removed a few expansions later. Should these restrictions be included or not?
• Speaking of DKs. We know Blood (originally DPS) and Frost (Originally Tank) were swapped as DPS or Tank Specs with Wrath's first content update. I assume they'll start as Blood Tank and Frost DPS but what if Blizzard gave players the option of playing them as Blood DPS or Frost Tank? Maybe add an NPC to Acherus who could flip those two specs to DPS or Tank for Gold. Could be fun =O
• Wintergrap...whew. Blizzard learned fast launching the game without a cap was a dumb idea and it made the outdoor BG a lagfest until they added a hard cap and then kept shrinking it. What should the cap be? I think 120 per faction would be a good start (240 total) but it can be lowered to 40 per faction (80 total) if needed. Once it started, everyone else gets teleported to Dalaran or something until a side wins. For those who don't know or remember, the faction that won WG earned the right for their faction to do the 10 or 25-man raid in WG Fortress. Until the next WG match anyways. If WG changed hands while you were raiding, you didn't have to worry about being booted though.
• Stand of the Ancients was introduced in Wrath but was retired a few years back. Should it return?
• Almost Forgot: Can we all agree Battle for Undercity MUST be included?

Those are my burning questions. Feel free to add your own or comment ^_^

Achievements: no, retail and classic are completely separate, nothing should transfer between them.

Flying: You get Cold Weather Flying at 77 or a loaner mount for storm peaks/sholazar/icecrown. You can then buy a tome to learn it at 68 for alts if ur 80.

Heirlooms: #NoChanges

Prepatch DKs: #NoChanges

DK Specs: They were originally designed so every spec could do both to an extent. #NoChanges, stop with the changes. Blood will be BiS for tanking and Frost bis for ST dps, unh for aoe dps/slightly behind frost for st. Nothing will change

Wintergrasp: 80 per faction is usually the sweet spot, more would be fun tho. VoA kicked you out 15 mins before a battle tho, even if in the middle of a fight.

Strands: Yes, it was part of wotlk. #NoChanges

Battle for Undercity: ofc, best questline ever, #NoChanges, it will be there for sure

[DeltrusDisc]

I tanked things as Unholy. Did pretty good too.

Other Points, in order:

Separate achievements from Live, However it was in WOTLK I think you had to be 77 to unlock flying and I can't seem to remember anything about a tome you could send alts, Heirlooms only the ones that were available in WOTLK, same WOTLK Era restrictions for DKs, However WG was on the final content patch, and yes to SOTA. and fuck yes to Battle for Undercity

What do you mean WG was on the final content patch? You mean the population cap? Yeah, it was lame and really hurt WG.

I remember getting server first (no actual server first achievement was made, but no one got it before me on Thunderhorn - US) Wintergrasp Battlemaster. I LOVED the crap out of WG. Was like 200 v 200 easily and so incredible. This 40 v 40 nonsense, is... well... nonsense.

[Bombercloner]

I feel like you ignored the biggest feature of WotLK... LFD. Will they implement that in the "final phase" of wrath? IMO LFD was the start of modern WoW.

[Aurabolt]

I feel like you ignored the biggest feature of WotLK... LFD. Will they implement that in the "final phase" of wrath? IMO LFD was the start of modern WoW.

See my second post in this thread. The one I made after my OP I mean.

[Stormdash]

What? All DK specs could be tank or dps. I've no idea what you're saying here. Doesn't matter if blood was worse in early patches than frost or viceversa, both had the tools to tank and dps.

Well what did happen was that during the ICC patch they formally made Blood the only tank spec and you could no longer effectively tank in Frost or Unholy. I've been wondering about this too; it would be a shame not to be able to frost tank at all in Wrath Classic, but their pattern has been to launch the game with the talent/class design in its end state from that expansion.

[Yadryonych]

[*]Speaking of DKs. We know Blood (originally DPS) and Frost (Originally Tank) were swapped as DPS or Tank Specs with Wrath's first content update. I assume they'll start as Blood Tank and Frost DPS but what if Blizzard gave players the option of playing them as Blood DPS or Frost Tank? Maybe add an NPC to Acherus who could flip those two specs to DPS or Tank for Gold. Could be fun =O

It wasn't specs being swapped in the content update, it was players massively discarding frost spec despite it being actually intended for tanking to the point where Blizzard just gave up on it. Blood was so broken it dealt enough damage to ignore threat generation bonus and did enough self-healing to ignore avoidance/mitigation bonus both. Blizzard only cemented the broken state of DK in the update instead of fixing it.

Only in legion they were able to return to the awesome concept of dual-weilding tank with introduction of daemon hunter class

[Luxeley]

Part of the lure of new WOTLK servers is a complete restart. Giving some players 8-10k achievement pts right out of the gate could be justified if you played either Classic Wow or TBC, but otherwise no.

I believe the tome existed in late WOTLK and probably could exist again in the exact same manner.

Since heirlooms existed in WOTLK they should exist in the reboot. Another question applies here. There used to be acct wide honor you could buy at WG then mail to your alts as a way of xferring honor to them. Great feature. Idk why Blizzard doesn't implement it again... oh wait nvm.

You can't lift the DK restrictions especially the restriction of needing a lvl 55 toon to create one. Cause if you do, everyone who hates leveling (90% or so of the wow community) will role DKs.

WG can't have 120 per faction because on some servers there will be 120 horde vs 12 alliance (good times). And no, that is NOT blown out of proportion. 40vs40 would be a great way to start then scale it up from there if necessary.

As much as I hate SOTA, sure bring it back.

Of course, the undercity scenario must be there

[Aurabolt]

It wasn't specs being swapped in the content update

Dude. They literally swapped talents and skills between Blood and Frost.

- - - Updated - - -

You can't lift the DK restrictions especially the restriction of needing a lvl 55 toon to create one. Cause if you do, everyone who hates leveling (90% or so of the wow community) will role DKs.

They kept it in until after the expansion when they allowed you to make more than one DK on the server as well as removed the must have a 55+ char on the server requirement to just "must have a level 55+ char period". They removed the level requirement in Legion with the introduction of the Demon Hunter, which itself had the requirement of having a level 100+ char to make one.

I did see a lot of folks role DK just to avoid leveling 1-58 but most got bored halfway through Outland and...yeah.

WG can't have 120 per faction because on some servers there will be 120 horde vs 12 alliance (good times). And no, that is NOT blown out of proportion. 40vs40 would be a great way to start then scale it up from there if necessary.

That's actually not a bad idea. I main Alliance and it was common on all the servers I played on to when WotLK was current for there to be way more Horde than Alliance for months. Only times we won were when seasoned PvP Horde players didn't show up in large numbers. I did hear on some servers of the Alliance losing literally 90% of the time with some players having never played VoA when Wrath was current because of this. I know how crazy that soon but given the faction imbalance at the time, I believe it.

[Yadryonych]

Dude. They literally swapped talents and skills between Blood and Frost.

Yeah but it happened after everyone and their mama has already been tanking in blood for a good while