KSM S2 Requires both Tyrannical and Fortified.

[CiccioBello]

lol what... most of the groups i've played my hunter in have been with mages or shamans in them too... mostly enhancement or resto... sometimes both...

LoL I see we don't understand each other .. being grouped for a BM is much easier than a Sub / Sin Rogue don't you think?
1) You are Ranged
2) You have hero
3) You have some decent utilities.
4) You play the simplest class in the game, so finding "capable" BMs is very likely.
5) When you apply on a pug you don't know what the party setup is like, so you don't have to think about what's there but what you can bring.
And if you tell me that you always find enha shaman (so far in my runs, which are not few, I have only seen 2 enha, and from the parse of enha sham on m+ >= 15 they are quite few) I would say that you are very lucky.

If you don't understand these differences then I think you live in the world of toys

[Krakan]

LoL I see we don't understand each other .. being grouped for a BM is much easier than a Sub / Sin Rogue don't you think?
1) You are Ranged
2) You have hero
3) You have some decent utilities.
4) You play the simplest class in the game, so finding "capable" BMs is very likely.
5) When you apply on a pug you don't know what the party setup is like, so you don't have to think about what's there but what you can bring.
And if you tell me that you always find enha shaman (so far in my runs, which are not few, I have only seen 2 enha, and from the parse of enha sham on m+ >= 15 they are quite few) I would say that you are very lucky.

If you don't understand these differences then I think you live in the world of toys

It honestly comes down more to raider io and ilv. Unless you are really pushing keys at 20+ people don't care...hell most of them actively dont know what the meta is.

[TheLucky1]

LoL I see we don't understand each other .. being grouped for a BM is much easier than a Sub / Sin Rogue don't you think?
1) You are Ranged
2) You have hero
3) You have some decent utilities.
4) You play the simplest class in the game, so finding "capable" BMs is very likely.
5) When you apply on a pug you don't know what the party setup is like, so you don't have to think about what's there but what you can bring.
And if you tell me that you always find enha shaman (so far in my runs, which are not few, I have only seen 2 enha, and from the parse of enha sham on m+ >= 15 they are quite few) I would say that you are very lucky.

If you don't understand these differences then I think you live in the world of toys

The number one factor you are not invited is despite all your valid points: you are playing a dd, the moment a healer, tank or worst case scenario both are in the party the invitation list fills as fast as a ciws can fire rounds.

Either you stick out big time with your RIO or your chances are low, dd's exist like sand in the ocean.

[CiccioBello]

excuse me? i can clearly see what the party setup is like...

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oh please... don't say this as assassination rogue...

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so do many others that i group with...



rogues have better utility...

1) Sorry ??? When you apply in a group in pug, you only see in the group finder, the type of role currently present in the party but not which classes form the group, with the exception of the party leader.
You can see which classes form the group only when the leader decides to accept your apply, and if you tell me otherwise you are saying the false.

2) Quiet, I was expecting a similar response from a BM. Unfortunately for you the truth is this. No other ranged possesses all instant cast abilities and 3 button rotation and where half the damage comes from the pet. Easier than that.
Believe me I've tried it too, but it's so brain dead that I deleted the PG.

3) Ok, let's count how many melee hero can use BL:
a) Enha Sham
b) Survival Hunter
Nice !!
Now let's see how many ranged have BL:
a) Mage, where the fire is in the META
b) Ele Sham, currently considered one of the strongest specs in m+
c) Hunter BM, MM, even here MM more than BM, on the whole it is considered a valid spec in m +

4) Actually what bring the rogue in m+
a) Shroud, but in SL the skips are no longer mandators as in BFA and anyway you can replace the shroud with the invisibility potion and this works even better.
b) Stun, but the BM also has stun.
c) maybe a little more self sustain than a bm

[Alroxas]

I'm reading that "Completing both a Tyrannical and Fortified +15 keystone just in time is about 249 points." Does that mean the two new mythic dungeons don't count?

What two new mythic dungeons? The mega dungeon is mythic+0 and won't be added to M+ rotation until season 3 at the earliest.

[CiccioBello]

nope...



i can see what the classes are before i apply...


assassination isn't some spec that requires giga brain to understand either...


most mm hunters in pugs don't even use bl... they refuse to bring the pet out...

most fire mages aren't even good to pick because the tank in pugs around 15s aren't playing around their cd... they might as well invite an arcane mage or frost mage and they will perform better than the fire mage in 99% of the cases in pugs around 15s...


lol... you think people bring invis pots in pugs?

rogues have more stuns than bm does.. you also have a shorter cd interrupt... cloak of shadows to clear debuffs... sap to allow skips...

and skips no longer mandatory? lol... i refuse to join mists on any key above 10 if there's nobody that can enable the skip on 3rd pack... i refuse to especially tank it because i'm not doing a fucking 40% route before first boss...

1) ok you use an addon

2) Certainly there are no more difficult classes as in the past, the fact remains that some classes require a little more brain.
Sin rogue is certainly not difficult to play, but compared to a bm, a whole river passes through it.
Sin rogue, potentially has 4 dots to keep up with at least 95% uptime, has energy management that needs to be more accurate, you have to manage your damage windows very well and all this combined with the fact that you are melee and you are very susceptible to downtime.
And I can go on and on, just to give you a summary.
Bm: managing barber shot stacks. Stop.

3) This is their problem. I've seen a lot of MMs being taken primarily for Hero. I have my guild friend with 1650 rio ​​who has no problem making keys> = 15 with the pet for BL.
Regardless of which spec of the mage you play, frost, arcane or fire hero still has it.
I agree with what you wrote about the Fire, the fact remains that it is potentially the strongest spec of the mage.

4) Certainly there are some keys where using the potion greatly facilitates the key. Some groups ask for it, it is not essential but it certainly helps. Obviously in my specific case they don't ask for it and I don't even explain why.

I have a +16 in time without any sort of skip that can convince you.
It is your problem that you want to skip the 3rd pack, it is not essential for a 15, and in any case you have many other classes for that job.
It is not said that if you do this then that is the only way and this problem in general of the comunity. Because everyone skips the 3rd pack then that is the only way. No, why?

Short cd interrupt are all melee, not just the rogue.
Cloack of Shadow is useful but it has 2 min cd so it's not like you can always use it. Last PF boss example, only once you can play him on poison rain. Too bad the boss does several during the fight. It helps, of course it is indispensable, no.

[Krakan]

it's funny when i get invited as shadow for a weekly key because i'm feeling too lazy to heal... i don't even know how to play shadow but as soon as i apply i'm invited because of my score... yes... my score puts me in top 500 holy priests... doesn't mean i'm a top 500 shadow priest lol...

My case its I'm an extremely geared hunter I've never pushed past a 15 save for the rare carry that wants a 16 or 17 but I'm always gonna get a spot with 230 ilv.

People seem to assume people making groups have some grand plan for an engineered perfect comp run when in truth the vast majority is looking to brute force one key a week.

[callipygoustp]

I'm okay with this since I feel like this is going to be something anyone who does keys regularly gets incidentally anyway, ...

Was thinking the exact same thing. Just checked my sheet to see my personal tyrannical vs fortified ratio and found I actually have a a couple more tyrannical than fortified.

I consider myself a casual in that I don't push hard for anything anymore. I get something, I get it. If not *shrug*. But with this change, with how many dungeons I run over the course of the season just for fun (I know, who plays WoW for fun anymore!), not seeing this being a problem. Unless I drop out of the game completely, I'll still end up with the achievement.

[Marakara]

There's a large group of people who struggle to get ksm even now despite gear, who will be affected by this change the most, but I don't think it's going to be that big of a deal. If Tyrannical is a problem for your group/the groups you get into, on Tyrannical weeks there's still a large group of people getting 14s done for weekly vaults. Pairing that with a 16 of the appropriate dungeon on Fortified will get you your ksm. Realistically, my friends who are struggling to get ksm have done way more than 20 m+ this season in the 14-16 range for various reasons (farming io to join pugs, getting weekly vaults each week, hunting for valor upgradeable gear).

I'm not happy with this change designwise, unless it opens up more m+ rewards, but practically this is barely going to dent my m+ progression

[Ange]

That wave will always get to 14/15 because of weekly chest ilvl cap and KSM. They won't strife higher and keep that level for the rest of the season.

Keep in mind 15 in time is only a challenge with low ilvl/gear. Of course people dont care for a weekly 15 by this time into the season!

It would be sad, really really sad if it took any skill to time a stupid 15+ key with 226+ ilvl gear.

Some people have a really big R.IO EPEEN and "I like pushing keys" is mentioned in every posting. But on the other hand for some reasons thats rarely someone who got tripple digit timed keys, because those people are chill as fuck in pugs. Nobody cares for fails in a PUG after so many hundred runs.

The truth is if you cant compensate a PUG to make the run smooth and fast, I really question the time spend with PUSHING KEYS, because not improving at all, while still earning rating just means you got carried.

[Glorious Leader]

The recolor mount isn't even close to enough motivation to drive this. Its one less reason to log on I guess.

[Tziva]

1) ok you use an addon

FWIW, you can get a weakaura that will show you the group comp for each role. That's what I use.

I think the Sin vs BM debate is silly. Both are easier specs, off-meta, and have good utility. Both also were fairly behind at the start of the expansion, but are now both fairly competitive. I would take either to my group if they were the most experienced of the current applicants.

There are definitely some groups that are obsessed with building the perfect meta group so I won't deny they exist, but more often than not the reason someone is declined from a group is simply because there are a massive amount of signups and some of them are going to be better in some way. Whether it's a spec that works better for comp or slightly higher ilvl or score, it's a very competitive arena, especially if you're DPS. I think people who don't regularly list their own keys (not just you but the community in general) really overestimates how many declines have to do with being metaslaves and really underestimates how many signups there are for listed keys.

Every time I list a key that is even somewhat desirable, I get a couple dozen signups within a minute. A lot of perfectly viable people are going to end up declined, only because I can't zone into Halls of Atonement with 27 players in my group.

[Swnem]

I just think this is a completely unecessary change.
What is anyone gaining from this? Will this make the afixes better?
Is the answer to players not liking afixes to force them to play them?

Sometimes the devs just seem to be gluttons for punishment and they are always... always fighting the community. I really don't understand. The shittiness of this expansion lies sorely on themselves. The community yelled as loud as they could that tying player power to covenant choice was a bad idea and the community was right as the covenant statistic choices show. So much for the meaningful choice, when the choice is "do you want to be powerful or not?".

It's not about this change, cause i enjoy mythic+ and i would do both regardless. It's just the atitude. OMG... it's like they are out to undermine themselves as much as possible. Just stop...
No one needs a raider.io for both tyranical and fortified. Stop doing unecessary stuff!

[GringoD]

I just think this is a completely unecessary change.
What is anyone gaining from this? Will this make the afixes better?
Is the answer to players not liking afixes to force them to play them?

One is 'make adds stronger' the other is 'make boss stronger'. It makes for a different run. Everyone gains an incentive to do both. What's wrong with that/why does it need to be better?

Also, since it's score based I assume we can substitute by running higher fortifieds in time if you really don't wanna do tyrannical +15.

[kaminaris]

One is 'make adds stronger' the other is 'make boss stronger'. It makes for a different run. Everyone gains an incentive to do both. What's wrong with that/why does it need to be better?

Also, since it's score based I assume we can substitute by running higher fortifieds in time if you really don't wanna do tyrannical +15.

Because it doesn't make it more interesting. It doesn't make gameplay better.

Resources are being poured to make game artificially longer instead of removing those nonsensical affixes and reworking affix system to actually make it more fun.
Nobody gains anything from this. Aside from boosters.

[erifwodahs]

One is 'make adds stronger' the other is 'make boss stronger'. It makes for a different run. Everyone gains an incentive to do both. What's wrong with that/why does it need to be better?

Also, since it's score based I assume we can substitute by running higher fortifieds in time if you really don't wanna do tyrannical +15.

Instead of creating better balance they create a stupid reason to do Tyrannical keys. We want balance so there are no "dead" weeks. And yes, I am aware that 15 are easy. I am talking about weeks were we just have essentially skip playing because keys we need are stupid difficulty on tyrannical in comparison to any forty week. i.e. DoS tyra.

[WeWillOnlyBeSlower]

So much discussion... In the end they only want to sell more tokens so the average collector joe can get his mount.

[erifwodahs]

So much discussion... In the end they only want to sell more tokens so the average collector joe can get his mount.

That is quite cynical view and it sounds that it could be true, but if you viewed it through this prism - everything is like that then so people should be very cautious before they paint it this way.
I have no problem with working for rewards - Ashes of Alar of Invincible were not obtainable for the "average joe". It just has to be balanced - one week shouldn't be much harder than other.

[GringoD]

Because it doesn't make it more interesting. It doesn't make gameplay better.

Resources are being poured to make game artificially longer instead of removing those nonsensical affixes and reworking affix system to actually make it more fun.
Nobody gains anything from this. Aside from boosters.

Why wouldn't it? I don't get it. The threats in the dungeon are differently seeded and thus you may need to adjust resource allocation and pull order. Why is providing that variety a nonsensical design approach?
And what would be the better alternative? More impactful stuff, like, more seasonal affixes?

Instead of creating better balance they create a stupid reason to do Tyrannical keys. We want balance so there are no "dead" weeks. And yes, I am aware that 15 are easy. I am talking about weeks were we just have essentially skip playing because keys we need are stupid difficulty on tyrannical in comparison to any forty week. i.e. DoS tyra.

I'd argue that perfect balance is a holy grail, you'll never attain it. Just look at class balance. They're at it for decades and you can count the best specs for M+ on one hand. As long as there is variety, you'll have winners and losers.

So certain combinations will always be harder=dead. Just as much as certain specs will always be worse and shunned. So I don't think it's bad to have an incentive to attempt the challange. The alternative is status quo.

[apelsinjuice]

That is quite cynical view and it sounds that it could be true, but if you viewed it through this prism - everything is like that then so people should be very cautious before they paint it this way.
I have no problem with working for rewards - Ashes of Alar of Invincible were not obtainable for the "average joe". It just has to be balanced - one week shouldn't be much harder than other.

this change is just to drive more "engament" metrics as higher m+ keys is dead on tyrannical weeks