Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Lochton]

I personally dont find boosts to be p2w, I find the buying currency to be p2w, which you cannot do in FFXIV.

Nor can you directly from Blizzard, unless you count trading items for gold from players.

[rhorle]

Because you didn't make an argument on whether it was P2W in your post.

I asked you if something was pay to win and you said "I agree". I used the same argument you used for why level boosts are not pay to win.

[Toppy]

Nor can you directly from Blizzard, unless you count trading items for gold from players.

You're just being blatantly dishonest now. The token system was pretty much made for people to get gold with money if they choose.

[rhorle]

It is also free up until that level point. On principle you are correct. That said people feel that FF offers better value then blizzard nickel and diming everything.

Which is weird since Blizzard gets crap for even having a small cash shop. Ignoring of course the some people hate on blizzard any reason.

[Lochton]

FF does have a far better free trial, yes.

But I will say glancing over the FFXIV shop it doesn't seem that far off from WoW besides the ability to buy gold, the shop just isn't incorporated to the game directly as far as I've found.

Although I want Fatter Cat.

FFRR's shop sells boosts (I believe still?) and buffs (the latter would count as P2W if we followed the definition someone posted on one of the pages).

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You're just being blatantly dishonest now. The token system was pretty much made for people to get gold with money if they choose.

Not really. I'm boiling it down to the 'indirect' measurements of people's arguments. That is what is considered indirect, if it was direct, you would be selecting the amount from the store.

Blizzard makes product -> Blizzard sells product -> User buys product with real money -> User sells product for gold -> Another user buys product for gold -> User earns gold -> Other user earns game-time / TCG item.

[rhorle]

You're just being blatantly dishonest now. The token system was pretty much made for people to get gold with money if they choose.

But it still isn't directly from Blizzard. The gold only comes from other players. If a player does not buy a token then no one can exchange money for gold. The tokens have sold out in the past even if it is unusual now a days. The prices of tokens have jumped way up since the beginning of this year so if I remember the supply/demand correctly that means there are more people wanting to trade gold for a token then there are people buying tokens for real money.

[TheRevenantHero]

FFRR's shop sells boosts (I believe still?) and buffs (the latter would count as P2W if we followed the definition someone posted on one of the pages).

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Not really. I'm boiling it down to the 'indirect' measurements of people's arguments. That is what is considered indirect, if it was direct, you would be selecting the amount from the store.

Blizzard makes product -> Blizzard sells product -> User buys product with real money -> User sells product for gold -> Another user buys product for gold -> User earns gold -> Other user earns game-time / TCG item.

They sell a boost for one CLASS. To a degree it's a form of p2w as well just like the WoW one. But FFXIV isn't what's being discussed.

[Schizoide]

Boosts are P2W too. WoW is a MMO so there's very little skill required to get anything, it's all time invested.

Again, comes down to your own tolerance for this sort of thing. I find cosmetics to be completely OK, level boosts to be less offensive than selling gold, selling gold to be better than selling items directly, and that's better than selling advantages normal players can't get at all.

My personal threshold for quitting would probably be directly selling items that improve player power. But definitely YMMV.

[Lochton]

They sell a boost for one CLASS. To a degree it's a form of p2w as well just like the WoW one. But FFXIV isn't what's being discussed.

Nor did I argue anything on that. Only stated that their store compared to WoW had some items that clears the definitions of P2W according to some definitions shared in this thread, nothing more.

[Prag]

Depends on what you classify as winning. There are plenty of high ilvl raiders struggling in Mythics. Are they winning? Would buying the gear and slamming your head into failed SLG attempts really be winning?

I don’t personally think so.

[Lochton]

Boosts are P2W too. WoW is a MMO so there's very little skill required to get anything, it's all time invested.

Again, comes down to your own tolerance for this sort of thing. I find cosmetics to be completely OK, level boosts to be less offensive than selling gold, selling gold to be better than selling items directly, and that's better than selling advantages normal players can't get at all.

My personal threshold for quitting would probably be directly selling items that improve player power. But definitely YMMV.

That is where you have me as well.

[Crimson Spears]

Oh, welp sorry. I saw people mentioning boosts again and focusing on that again.

I do get where people come from with the gold aspect, but to me it's more of a "well it's always been there in different forms", so it's kinda gray to me in that regards.

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FF does have a far better free trial, yes.

But I will say glancing over the FFXIV shop it doesn't seem that far off from WoW besides the ability to buy gold, the shop just isn't incorporated to the game directly as far as I've found.

Although I want Fatter Cat.

Its fully cosmetic and feels less abrasive then blizzard... I won't lie how well a company treats their players relates to what upsets the community to different degrees. FF selling cosmetic armors? sure why not?

Blizzard making some shit tier torghast for me to run for months AND sell armor cosmetics? Fuck'em

[Relapses]

Depends on what you classify as winning. There are plenty of high ilvl raiders struggling in Mythics. Are they winning? Would buying the gear and slamming your head into failed SLG attempts really be winning?

I don’t personally think so.

It definitely wouldn't; gear on the store would directly impact players who don't suck at the game, though. You could justify it by saying "well just wait 3 months or until after HoF is completed," but I think that's just moving the goal post. Gear shouldn't be on the store, period.

[TheRevenantHero]

Nor did I argue anything on that. Only stated that their store compared to WoW had some items that clears the definitions of P2W according to some definitions shared in this thread, nothing more.

They actually don't sell buffs in the store anymore. Outside of a boost to level 70, all items are cosmetics(aside from retainers but that's not really an advantage.)

[Relapses]

Its fully cosmetic and feels less abrasive then blizzard... I won't lie how well a company treats their players relates to what upsets the community to different degrees. FF selling cosmetic armors? sure why not?

Blizzard making some shit tier torghast for me to run for months AND sell armor cosmetics? Fuck'em

Jesus fuck dude, Blizzard isn't making you do Torghast any more than FF makes you buy cosmetics. You're just mad at Blizzard because you have zero self control and would rather blame the fucking company than admit it's a you problem.

[rhorle]

Blizzard making some shit tier torghast for me to run for months AND sell armor cosmetics? Fuck'em

The people that bought the cosmetic helms during MoP used to be kicked from groups. Heck some were kicking from groups for the recent sprite darter costume. Blizzard has always been held to a double standard that people don't hold other games to and it is silly to change that attitude based on current enjoyment of the game.

[m4xc4v413r4]

Yes it is, you're buying the trophy. You're straight up purchasing the victory trophy. Did you earn it? No, not at all, but you have still technically won the game.

ahahah "technically won the game" good joke mate.
You new to MMORPGs?

[Crimson Spears]

The people that bought the cosmetic helms during MoP used to be kicked from groups. Heck some were kicking from groups for the recent sprite darter costume. Blizzard has always been held to a double standard that people don't hold other games to and it is silly to change that attitude based on current enjoyment of the game.

Good on them for doing it. Its players telling people "hey we don't support that" like a home owners association.

[TheRevenantHero]

Good on them for doing it. Its players telling people "hey we don't support that" like a home owners association.

Kicking someone from a group because they bought cosmetics is beyond childish and should be considered a form of griefing.

[Prag]

It definitely wouldn't; gear on the store would directly impact players who don't suck at the game, though. You could justify it by saying "well just wait 3 months or until after HoF is completed," but I think that's just moving the goal post. Gear shouldn't be on the store, period.

I mean, the mechanics have been made such that gear won’t make a bad player not bad. You could give me full BIS and I’m still not timing a 28. It would feel shitty for people in BGs but, again, good players are rarely if ever seeing gear as an obstacle.

Good players get gear naturally. Their barometer for success is competitive.