I think gear should only come from drops.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I mean, if it's either putting up with it or not doing the raid at all?

Then it seems pretty obvious to me at least that people would just be "put up with it" in favor of the goal.

I'm just saying that i've never been in a friendly guild or group where i did not have a fear of "Losing my spot" due to the "Whim of the Leader" in WoW or any other game.

So it is indeed quite "odd" to me that there are groups out there.. who enjoy playing together and are not just doing it out of necessity.

Dude stop joining garbage guilds.

[deenman]

The idea is not that everyone takes up a crafting profession, instead the ones that do should just actively supply the market with items, which is reasonable, as 1 smith certainly makes more than just 1 sword. You also have the argument backwards, especially because this is an MMO player interactions should exist, just dropping it to personal loot is the most anti-mmo thing possible*. The alternative would be the items the NPC shops offer (see my edit), which I originally forgot to factor in and would mostly come out of the 40% pool tbh. My goal is that items that drops should be special, have a story to them and fit where they drop. This is all just stuff that used to be common in the genre, before Blizzard established that it's okay to be scared of your players actually interacting and turned the loot system into diablo rng loot pinata smashing.

As for treasures and hoards. It makes sense if you clear a dungeon and there are treasure chests at the end, it makes no sense that a boar drops silk slippers and 3 meter long pole-axes. A dragon doesn't have 4 quarterstaves, 2 books and 5 sets of full plate armor stuck up its ass either, the treasure hoard it has amassed though might have these items. Essentially I just split "from combat activities" into "directly from NPC" and "from the NPCs enviroment".

*let me make it clear, this is an idealized world/scenario I'm talking about here, wow and it's community are fundamentally flawed, so I personally would take personal loot over having to deal with this asshat community any day. The same could be said about crafting in general, at this point in the game crafting professions might as well not exist with the exception of alchemy.

oh so by treasures you basicaly mean drops actualy lol,ok im fine with that,as long as they cant be chese looted by rogues or whatever

and by profession loot you mean boe loot,i was thinking they would have been soulbound,but i still think the mats should come from hard raid content

[Cosmic Janitor]

oh so by treasures you basicaly mean drops actualy lol,ok im fine with that,as long as they can be chese looted by rogues or whatever

and by profession loot you mean boe loot,i was thinking they would have been soulbound,but i still think the mats should come from hard raid content

Profession should be from actual from professions (the percentage was just too big, part of the 40% and a bit from the others should be vendor), not just BoE. Ideally it should cover the whole range from beginner gear to high end, obviously the materials need to come from places that reflect the difficulty/power of the item.

[Orange Joe]

No not really.

Yes really. If you don't like their game, there are and i quote

many other games to play in this world.

[BdazmedPrim]

That's true for getting Epic gear from loot - that's true MMORPG was been.
There are must be a way to making an alternative variant of gear from the chest that will not take over the Epic Raid Gear for those who want this kind of way

[Depakote]

Yes really. If you don't like their game, there are and i quote

That's what i've done but at some point Blizzard is going to have to change things to how players want them or they'll just keep losing players.

[MoanaLisa]

The main point of doing raids has become moot.

It sounds as if you might not be doing raids if they didn't reward anything.

The main point of the game and anything in it is to enjoy the game. If rewards lead you around by the nose then you might think about stepping back just a bit. A lot of people have and it's true that gear rewards and the accompanying hamster wheel are tiresome and a dumb reason to continue playing a game you don't enjoy for itself.

[Skorpionss]

I disagree to be fair.

You don't have to be in a world first guild to enjoy raiding for the experience. It's why you hear nerd screams after a hard first kill from any guild. I raided because I wanted to fight all these characters from Warcraft history. Kael'thas, Illidan, the Lich King. Sure it's nice to show off the shiny toys you get from clearing mythic Sire so everyone knows you overcame the challenge, but they're still just toys the majority of mythic raiders. Something you replace in 4-6 months.

You can disagree all you want with your words, but if you do the raid again after you killed the last boss once you actions betray your words.

[Tyris Flare]

Do people really believe that 8/10 guilds spending 200-300 pulls on slg and SD at this point are honestly doing it for a few pieces of 233 loot this close to a patch? (gear which will instantly be replaced by +14 keys the week after 9.1). I mean, come on.

People do mythics raids for the gear and for the sense of progression. The same reason that people push IO even though it has no tangible reward.

[Depakote]

It sounds as if you might not be doing raids if they didn't reward anything.

The main point of the game and anything in it is to enjoy the game. If rewards lead you around by the nose then you might think about stepping back just a bit. A lot of people have and it's true that gear rewards and the accompanying hamster wheel are tiresome and a dumb reason to continue playing a game you don't enjoy for itself.

Don't assume things. Ask questions for further clarification if you must but never assume things. You're just going to be wrong in the end.

[InflaterMouse]

Well. The point of raids is the challenge and the story. The gear is the reward and bonus.

I mean that is part of it, but getting gear is why the majority of people play the game. They want to progress their character, not the story. They want to get the gear drops needed to make their toon powerful. The raids are hurdles to jump in order to do just that. If they wanted to challenge themselves and follow some story they wouldn't raid the same raid for 35-40 weeks looking for that one fking trinket to drop. You don't "farm" in a game to progress your story or challenge yourself, lol.

[Narzok]

i think a big reason for this is the m+ reward structure, giving higher loot in the chest than anything else from m+
raids and PvP are fine chest-wise, they are at the level of the content you do.

an idea: once per week you can give yourself a buff at the start of a m+ run.
if you finish the run you get a guaranteed item from that dungeon at the level of the great vault reward for that level.
the option to get the buff would only go on CD if you clear a dungeon with it. so a failed run would not cost you your "vault-loot" CD

in return, the great vault loot would be reduced to the normal clear reward, as a fallback to get a piece you might still need and not the main reward.
that way, the most rewarding loot would again be from clearing the dungeon, not the vault.
and targetting a certain reward would be easier since the loot would be a piece from the dungeon you used the buff in, and not from all dungeons you ran.

tl;dr: let us "supercharge" a m+ run once a week and make that run's loot 100% and on GV level. reduce GV to end-of-run quality to compensate.

[Ohvul]

I'm kind of annoyed how the reason to play this game for some people has become strictly to get gear. It's as if we're all playing rogues in classic and will threaten to gquit if we aren't first on the list to get glaives. My point just being that in most of past wow, gearing up and min maxing has never really been this thing you actively have to grind in order to maximize / you never feel bad because you aren't being optimal just by doing the content you want to do.

Imo mythic plus turning away from challenges modes is the dumbest idea blizz ever had.

If all you do is mythic plus, you dont need raid equivalent gear.

If all you do is pvp, you dont need raid equiv gear.

If all you do is raid, you shouldn't need to pvp or mythic plus, ever.

Instead of holding true to those 3 statements blizz has now turned the community into this ilvl chasing cesspool of joyless players. People are going to respond saying they deserve to play chasing whichever end they want, but im going to blatantly argue that of you think joy in this game should come from making green text turn blue, or small numbers into bigger ones, then consequently you should also feel sad every expansion when such things reset. Alas, most players don't and thats because the fresh new content brings joy which overcomes the loss found in stat, gear resets.

Blizz should make this game about feeling accomplished when you run a plus 15, not because you grinded plus 12s for a week until you were geared for the 15, but because similar to challenge modes you optimized your strat for a higher key. Make it about feeling accomplished you hit 2k rating, not because of the gear you get at 2k which allows you to create an imbalance in competition to those already beneath you but because every single match you had up til 2k itself was on equal footing.

[Ticj]

It sounds as if you might not be doing raids if they didn't reward anything.

The main point of the game and anything in it is to enjoy the game. If rewards lead you around by the nose then you might think about stepping back just a bit. A lot of people have and it's true that gear rewards and the accompanying hamster wheel are tiresome and a dumb reason to continue playing a game you don't enjoy for itself.

This...is an MMORPG though. The entire point of the genre is to progress your character by setting goals and achieving them. If you take that away from the game then what is left? People won't do content that does not give rewards because the entire structure of the game is dependent on that.

In any kind of game that has some sort of progression system, a majority of players are going to try to do the content that is most rewarding to them. Blizzard's job when making these games are to balance the reward structure for time/effort spent for various things.

The person you replied to is right when they say mythic+ has made raiding for gear moot. Raiding requires a lot of time and coordination, and has a weekly lockout which means you may only get 0-2 pieces of loot a week. Compare that to Mythic+ where you can spam it and easily surpass the rewards of raiding. There's an imbalance there. It does not mean that they don't enjoy it anymore, it means that the lack of balance in the reward structure causes feeling of "Why am I doing X, when I could be doing Y that gives more rewards?" From there someone has to make the choice of doing the content they enjoy more, but will progress their character less a.k.a. punishing them, or do something they don't particularly enjoy but have to in order to gear their character efficiently.

This is compounded by the fact that raiding is still seen at the end goal of WoW by a large portion of players, and it really does feel shitty that you could go through an entire raid without getting a single piece of gear, while someone who spammed Mythic+ for an equal amount of time would have progressed much further and probably gotten stronger gear from it in the first place.

[teglin]

definitely interesting, but my opinion is to give players more options for hearing their character. boss drops should definitely be highest tier, but people can level through M+ and PvP and I do not see an issue with that. Not everyone has the time or resources to commit to raiding.

[Crimson Spears]

This...is an MMORPG though. The entire point of the genre is to progress your character by setting goals and achieving them. If you take that away from the game then what is left? People won't do content that does not give rewards because the entire structure of the game is dependent on that.

In any kind of game that has some sort of progression system, a majority of players are going to try to do the content that is most rewarding to them. Blizzard's job when making these games are to balance the reward structure for time/effort spent for various things.

The person you replied to is right when they say mythic+ has made raiding for gear moot. Raiding requires a lot of time and coordination, and has a weekly lockout which means you may only get 0-2 pieces of loot a week. Compare that to Mythic+ where you can spam it and easily surpass the rewards of raiding. There's an imbalance there. It does not mean that they don't enjoy it anymore, it means that the lack of balance in the reward structure causes feeling of "Why am I doing X, when I could be doing Y that gives more rewards?" From there someone has to make the choice of doing the content they enjoy more, but will progress their character less a.k.a. punishing them, or do something they don't particularly enjoy but have to in order to gear their character efficiently.

This is compounded by the fact that raiding is still seen at the end goal of WoW by a large portion of players, and it really does feel shitty that you could go through an entire raid without getting a single piece of gear, while someone who spammed Mythic+ for an equal amount of time would have progressed much further and probably gotten stronger gear from it in the first place.

I mean... setting your own goals isn't just "I need to be equals with the best"

You can't set your own goals then scream that they need to effect everyone else. The major friction in game over the past few years is how easy content is having a greater and greater effect on harder content in clearly negative ways.

Choreghast either should of been many,many times harder or it shouldn't of been designed to be ran more then once by someone doing mythic. I am of the belief mythic plus should have the same drop rates as mythic 0. The challenge was overcome there shouldn't be some built in desire to stretch out the same content longer and longer.

Blizzard needs the courage to let people beat their game.

[Ticj]

I mean... setting your own goals isn't just "I need to be equals with the best"

You can't set your own goals then scream that they need to effect everyone else. The major friction in game over the past few years is how easy content is having a greater and greater effect on harder content in clearly negative ways.

Choreghast either should of been many,many times harder or it shouldn't of been designed to be ran more then once by someone doing mythic. I am of the belief mythic plus should have the same drop rates as mythic 0. The challenge was overcome there shouldn't be some built in desire to stretch out the same content longer and longer.

Blizzard needs the courage to let people beat their game.

Yes, and I agree with you. I'm not sure how what I said means "everyone should be equal"

[Crimson Spears]

Yes, and I agree with you. I'm not sure how what I said means "everyone should be equal"

Its the common train of thought this discussion devolves to. I am not so much speaking to you as the ones I expect to show up like clock work.

[Malania]

You can disagree all you want with your words, but if you do the raid again after you killed the last boss once you actions betray your words.

You've never been in a raiding guild have you? You don't get to kill the last boss and choose to sit out. You'd lose your spot. You raid as long as the guild raids, when they say it's social raiding until the next tier. Then you get to go on the bench. Don't be ridiculous.

[Evolixe]

You've never been in a raiding guild have you? You don't get to kill the last boss and choose to sit out. You'd lose your spot. You raid as long as the guild raids, when they say it's social raiding until the next tier. Then you get to go on the bench. Don't be ridiculous.

Depends a lot on your guilds mentality. Some guilds are rather strict about that, others not so much. Kinda depends how many people there are on the roster as well.