How to rebuild the Horde.

[cparle87]

If you need an idea on why rebuilding the Horde is such a problem for Blizzard you need just look at this thread. We have the guys who think they have to be warmongering lunatics or else they're just red humans with nothing in between. We have the guys who think they can't have any lore or character development without being warmongering lunatics or red humans with nothing in between. Then you have the "the Horde should've ceased to exist after MoP and been enslaved/sent back to Outland" types.

[Mungho]

I think it's a fundamental flaw in the horde itself. A 'horde' refers to a large group the goes around conquering. Genghis Khan's horde is one such example. When a horde stops conquering, it ceases to be a horde. The Horde HAS to attack others in order to be 'The Horde'.
Thus the Horde exists only to attack the Alliance; the Alliance only exists to react to attacks to the Horde. It's like the Ouroboros, the snake eating it's own tale, a cycle that can only be broken if one side is destroyed, which would mean the destruction of the other side.

Edit:

Oops, didn't mean to get philosophical there.

[username993720]

The Venthyr will help the Horde redeem themselves of their past sins, and the Necrolords will help the Horde remember what Lok'tar Ogar means. These are both inevitable as they're both going to be Allied Races at the end of the expansion.

Pretty much what you said.

The Horde has existed for 39 years since Blackhand became the first Warchief. For those 39 years, there has only been FOUR YEARS where the Horde wasn't a fascist, warmongering regime: the three years under Thrall from Vanilla through the end of Wrath, and the one year Vol'jin was warchief. FOUR YEARS out of 39. The Horde managed to be not evil for 10% of its existence. That speaks for itself.

And people still believe the Horde was predominantly Thrall's Horde.

(Vol'jin wasn't really a Warchief, but a tool for the meantime).

[TheImperios]

I think it's a fundamental flaw in the horde itself. A 'horde' refers to a large group the goes around conquering. Genghis Khan's horde is one such example. When a horde stops conquering, it ceases to be a horde.

The Golden Horde, one of the wealthiest and most advanced nations of its time: am I a joke to you?

[Mungho]

The Golden Horde, one of the wealthiest and most advanced nations of its time: am I a joke to you?

The Golden Horde still went around trying to conquer, enslave, and dominate, until a combination of succession crises, external enemies, and the Black Death caused it to violently implode.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

The formation of the Horde itself insured that it would have a very dark path and that there would be many problems with its very definition and future purposes since it was built on a gigantic life and on the terrible and honorless goal of wiping out the Draenei under the false assumption of them plotting against the Orcs.

Even after the defeat of the Old Horde and Thrall, Garrosh and Sylvanas' respective rules the Orcs and the people of the Horde don't seem to know what the Horde truly is and what should be its purposes and rules.

[mysticx]

Step one, Blizzard actually decide whether it's Orgrim's Evil Horde of Bloodthirsty Butchers, or Thrall's Noble Savages. Thus, it won't happen because Blizz prefers to try to juggle fans of both versions.

That's the problem, OP mentions "Rebuilding the horde", i'm not sure what that means, considering all of their holdings (Except the one their own warchief blighted) are still intact and all, so the other kind of "Rebuilding" is political...

But yeah, that heavily leans on "What does Blizzard want the horde to be?", they seem to change their mind about that every other expansion.

[Aresk]

I tried to keep the current lore chops and present them in a more coherent way. Also, try as I might, I'd very much like to see a new cast in the spotlight.

I'm fine with Alleria, Turalyon and Khadgar: although historic figures, their legacy comes from a time where characters had no... well, character, aside from a few lines from a narrator's standpoint and some old forgotten lore. Khadgar had ample space to find his legs, Alleria and Turalyon can go, but for the love of god W3 cast has to go at this point.

The writers are different, the staff is different, their stories are done. Let them rest, build some new characters, learn from the Nathanos fiasco, do not ever pull a Genn or Shaw ever again and just go with it.

Wait, what's wrong with Genn and Shaw? You seem to complain about older characters and then pick two characters who were at best a footnote in the manuals of the previous games.

[Soon-TM]

The Golden Horde still went around trying to conquer, enslave, and dominate, until a combination of succession crises, external enemies, and the Black Death caused it to violently implode.

Implying that the highly civilised Byzantine or Chinese empires of that time weren't doing exactly the same thing.

[Mungho]

Implying that the highly civilised Byzantine or Chinese empires of that time weren't doing exactly the same thing.

Yes, but we're talking about 'hordes' here, and the word has negative connotations, though I don't know what else we could call the Horde in-game.

[Soon-TM]

Wait, what's wrong with Genn and Shaw? You seem to complain about older characters and then pick two characters who were at best a footnote in the manuals of the previous games.

Genn and Shaw were effectively footnotes in the past, but at least they had definite personalities. Genn was an assh0le who preferred to lock his kingdom behind a wall instead of helping the Alliance he was a part of, but when the push came to shove he had to grovel before the Anime King for support. Maybe that's when he became infected with the Wrynn Syndrome, and became yet another yesman of whoever was in charge at Stormwind. As a matter of fact, the only time that he was written as something different, i.e. Stormheim, was promptly swept under the rug and never discussed again.

Ditto for Shaw. The guy personally oversaw some frankly funky stuff such as sinking ships full of civilians, just because Thrall might have been there. But the more attention he received from (the current batch of) writers, the more Generic Lawful Good #2343046816 he became.

I mean, if they are going to bring back characters of old and give them some spotlight, they should at least make sure that they bring something new to the table, instead of being mere Anduin cheerleaders.

[Aresk]

Genn and Shaw were effectively footnotes in the past, but at least they had definite personalities. Genn was an assh0le who preferred to lock his kingdom behind a wall instead of helping the Alliance he was a part of, but when the push came to shove he had to grovel before the Anime King for support. Maybe that's when he became infected with the Wrynn Syndrome, and became yet another yesman of whoever was in charge at Stormwind. As a matter of fact, the only time that he was written as something different, i.e. Stormheim, was promptly swept under the rug and never discussed again.

Ditto for Shaw. The guy personally oversaw some frankly funky stuff such as sinking ships full of civilians, just because Thrall might have been there. But the more attention he received from (the current batch of) writers, the more Generic Lawful Good #2343046816 he became.

I mean, if they are going to bring back characters of old and give them some spotlight, they should at least make sure that they bring something new to the table, instead of being mere Anduin cheerleaders.

Huh, I don't recall Genn ever groveling before Varian or Varian ever offering Genn any form of support. The worgen and night elves worked together, but I don't recall the Stormwind humans ever expressing concern for any Gilneans or offering them any help.

But yeah, I enjoyed Genn's characterization throughout Cataclysm and Legion. He was basically absent for MoP and WoD, and BfA he retained some teeth, just not as much bite. It just seemed an odd choice to complain about him given the rest of the post.

[Shadowtwili]

Lets start rebuilding the Horde by letting go of the savage part of the "noble savage" they are trying to depict.

There are no savage races in the Horde, orcs are actually quite intelligent and technology minded (looking at the True, Iron and Fel Iron Hordd tech), trolls have an ancient civilisation, tauren are peaceful and calm, etcetc

[Soikona]

If you need an idea on why rebuilding the Horde is such a problem for Blizzard you need just look at this thread. We have the guys who think they have to be warmongering lunatics or else they're just red humans with nothing in between. We have the guys who think they can't have any lore or character development without being warmongering lunatics or red humans with nothing in between. Then you have the "the Horde should've ceased to exist after MoP and been enslaved/sent back to Outland" types.

Basically this. Like people calling Baine an alliance leader just because he doesn’t want to go to war and lose more of his people to a war he doesn’t agree with and because he gets along with an alliance leader. It adds layers, but a lot of the forum posters here want only one layer, and for it to be covered in blood of the alliance.

[Le Conceptuel]

You have to break it up and implement a program of "de-hordification" to deprogram the Horde's fascist tendencies. Tribes on Kalimdor are forbidden from massing together unless it's in Alliance occupied cities like Orgrimmar, where the de-hordification program is taking place. If any signs of military massing are detected, that group gets wiped out by Night Elves. Orcish tribes that want to retain their militaristic ways are allowed to be ferried back to their ruined world of Outland, but there will no longer be any Horde shenagains happening on Azeroth under the eyes of the Alliance.

How WoW should have ended in 5.4:

Spoiler: 

In the deepest bowels of the Underhold, below Orgrimmar
Garrosh finally falls onto his hands and knees, panting heavily. Blood is gushing from his chest.
Thrall walks up to him, raising the Doomhammer above his head.
Thrall: "You disappoint me Garrosh. You are not worthy of your father's legacy."
Garrosh looks up at Thrall one last time.
Crack! Garrosh's head explodes like hammer hitting a watermelon.
Thrall lets out a sigh.
"Finally... it is over."
"Yes, it is over." said a stern voice behind him. "Take aim!"
Sound of dozens of flintlocks being cocked reverberates throughout the Underhold.
Thrall was alarmed and spun around, staring at dozens of musket barrels in the face. In front them is a line of heavily armored knights, swords drawn."
"What is this?" Thrall asked in disbelief.
"The end of three decades of ceaseless war." Varian stepped forth. "Thrall, I will only say this once: surrender, or die."
Vol'jin scoffed, rising to his full height. He began casting a spell. "I will hold dem ba-"
Slice. The troll's arm arm fell to the ground. An elven blade was held up to his neck.
"Do not be hasty, Vol'jin." said a voice from behind. "Or you and your people will surely die."
Vol'jin turned to see an elven blade being held up to his neck. His eyes widened in disbelief.
"Treachery!" was all Vol'jin could muster.
On the Horde side of the Underhold, Sin'dorei soldiers held their spears and swords at their former comrades.
Lor'themar walked across the hall to stand by Varian.
"A pleasure to have you with us, Reagent Lord." said Varian.
Lor'themar nodded, then turned to address his former comrades across the hall. "The Sin'dorei lent our aid to the Horde in good faith, and time after time again we have only been repaid with the bodies our soldiers, thrown away in your petty wars. I will not stand by and allow the Horde to waste more elven lives for nothing. We have rejoined the Alliance."
Sounds of battle in the city above could be faintly heard.
Varian gestured towards the ceiling. "Alliance forces - Stormwind, Sin'dorei, and Kal'dorei regiments - are taking the city. Across the ocean in the Eastern Kingdoms, an Alliance expedition has crossed the Than'dol span and is laying siege to Lordaeron alongside a Sin'dorei army. It is over."
Sylvanas panicked. She turned into a wraith and fled.
Gallywix grimaced. "I assume you have kept us alive for a reason, yes?"
Varian nodded. "Thrall and Vol'jin will return to the surface above and tell the Horde forces to disband. Orgrimmar will become an occupation zone under Alliance Forces. Orcish and Troll tribes outside of Orgrimmar may not congregate, or else they will be assumed to be militant rebels and be destroyed by the Kal'dorei. Thunder Bluff can remain as they are, but if military build up is detected there..."
Baine caught the eye of Varian. The Tauren chieftain nodded in understanding.
Varian turned to face Gallywix. "The Alliance occupation forces will smash every piece of machinery in Orgrimmar. Bilgewater will remain under Alliance occupation. Consult with our Gnomish and Dwarf representatives for our plans for industrial redevelopment."
Varian turned back towards Thrall "We're doing this with or without you. The only question is how many more of your men's bodies will line the street." Varian gestured towards the doors.
Thrall sighed, and began walking out of the Underhold, escorted by Sin'dorei and human soldiers.


POST-WAR WORLD

In the Eastern Kingdoms

• The Undercity's walls were breached by anima golems and artillery bombardment, and the city was captured. Fanatics loyal to Sylvanas tried to destroy the city, but they were killed by Forsaken before the plot could be carried out. The remaining Forsaken in the city surrendered and were spared.

• The Gilnean liberation front retook Gilneas from the Forsaken holdouts. Forsaken apothecaries who had performed live experimentation on Alliance captives were summarily executed.

• With the aid of Gnomish machinery, the magics of the Cenarion Circle, the Earthen Ring, and the Church of the Light, Gilneas and Lordaeron and the Plageulands was eventually purified of the Forsaken Blight. Lordaeron, Gilnean, Arathi, and Alterac refugees began moving back towards their old homes. With the help of Stormwind and the Dwarven and Gnomish kingdoms, and economic redevelopment plan was implemented to rebuild those ruined kingdoms, including Silvermoon. Stormwind and the Dwarven and Gnomish kingdoms became particularly rich from handing out loans and the economy boomed from producing machinery.

• The Forsaken were allowed reside in the Eastern Kingdoms and settle in Alliance held territories, provided that they swear to never take up arms against the Alliance again. Many Forsaken reunited with their still living loved ones. The Church of the Light began ministering to the Forsaken, many of whom had fallen away due to their perceived abandonment by the Light. Alchemists and priests founded an organization dedicated to researching a cure for undeath.

In Kalimdor

• Admiral Taylor became the administrator of the Orgrimmar occupation zone. A "de-Hordification program" was instituted. Schools and hospitals for the people were created.

• Thrall and Vol'jin traveled throughout Kalimdor, telling the Horde forces to disband. Upon hearing the words from their trusted leaders, most did as asked. A few Orcish and Troll bands held out and attempted a guerilla campaign against the Alliance occupational forces to little effect. Over time they disappeared one by one. Occasionally, bands of Kal'dorei mounted forces and druids could be seen roaming across the land.

• Several Orcish tribes wanted to cling to their old militaristic ways, but recognized that resistance was futile. The Admiral Taylor offered to transport any tribes that wished to return to Draenor. A few took him up on his offer, and were transported by ship to the Dark Portal. Most contented themselves to remaining settled in Kalimdor and embracing a more peaceful lifestyle.

• A few militaristic tribes of trolls fled to join the Zandalari Empire. Their hopes were dashed when King Rastakahn refused to sanction any military activity against the Alliance. Zul commanded a few rogue expeditions but all were unsuccessful.

• Many civilians displaced by the bombing of Theramore integrated into various human kingdoms in the EK, but a second expedition led by Jaina Proudmoore refounded Theramore on Kalimdor.

• Shamans, druids, and agricultural engineering turned Durotar and the Barrens into a fertile land for Orcish, Troll, and Tauren settlement.

• After a couple decades, the "de-Hordification program" was declared successful and Alliance forces withdrew from Kalimdor, bringing an end to the occupation. To this day, Orgrimmar reminds a staunch ally to Theramore and Stormwind.

• Azshara was eventually transformed by the Goblins into a luxurious themepark that draws many visitors from across the world.

Across the world.

• As apart of the order to disband Horde military forces, Horde bases across the world were disbanded and personel shipped back to their countries of origin.

• The Vale of Eternal Blossoms was eventually restored thanks to the aid of Gnomish machinery, the magics of the Cenarion Circle, the Earthen Ring, and the Church of the Light.

• Many Pandaren left Pandaria and the Wandering Isle to explore abroad. In Stormwind, a small district called "Little Pandaria" was founded.

• Hidden nests of Nerubian and Mantid eggs were discovered, and the races were slowly repopulated and taught the history of their forebears, albeit under the strict guidance of mentors who would ensure that they would not be inclined to go on a conquest spree.

• Wrathion eventually took a mate from another colored dragonflight. Though a pure blooded Black Dragonflight was never restored, there are still many dragons to this day who can wield the powers of earth.

• The Dawnchaser tribes prospered in the Vale of Eternal blossoms. Chieftain Dezco remarried and had many children.

Legion

• The Burning Legion returned and performed a world wide invasion of Azeroth. Many died against the Legion but Azeroth endured.

• Sylvanas Windrunner pledged herself to Sargeras and became one of his lieutenants, betraying Azeroth. During the raid of Antorus, she was found dead with her throat ripped out.

• Sargeras, in his last ditch effort to save himself, awoke the world soul of Argus. Argus, having been tormented for thousands of years, lashed out violently, but eventually he was calmed and persuaded to turn upon his true tormentor, Sargeras. With a single swing of his scythe, Sargeras was cut in twain, bringing an end to the Burning Crusade.

• Many Draenei returned to the places they considered home. Some returned to Outland to restore and resettle Shadowmoon Valley. Others returned to Argus. Many remained on Azeroth.

• The gnomes and the goblins drilled deep into the earth and injected thousands and thousands of tons of lethal poisons into the very bodies of the old gods, killing them.

• The Explorer's League bought three airships and mounted an expedition led by Brann Bronzebeard to explore the other side of the world. The expedition included many adventurers, including famous heroes who had fought in the 4th War, as well as the legendary big game hunter Hemet Nesingwary. But that is a story for another time.

THE END

Real top fanfic. Totally in-character for Lor'Themar to mysteriously do an inexplicable 180 and turn into a treacherous supervillain. Love how it's just all a victory romp for the Alliance, too.

[Julian Rayne]

The Horde has existed for 39 years since Blackhand became the first Warchief. For those 39 years, there has only been FOUR YEARS where the Horde wasn't a fascist, warmongering regime: the three years under Thrall from Vanilla through the end of Wrath, and the one year Vol'jin was warchief. FOUR YEARS out of 39. The Horde managed to be not evil for 10% of its existence. That speaks for itself.

I'm no Horde fan but I don't think it's fait to count the 20 or so years when the Horde was basically defunct in internment camps. Unless of course you're counting one of the seventeen other Hordes (Dark, Fel, whatever) that might have been operational during that time. If there were any, I can't recall.

[Feanoro]

orcs are actually quite intelligent and technology minded (looking at the True, Iron and Fel Iron Hordd tech)

Too bad all of those had goblins or knowledge from the future telling them exactly what to do. The orcs never developed anything on their own.

[Le Conceptuel]

Too bad all of those had goblins or knowledge from the future telling them exactly what to do. The orcs never developed anything on their own.

To be fair, even the operation and creation of advanced technology requires intelligence and aptitude. Most engineers are still smart, even if some don't necessarily invent anything. It is true that they had Goblins with them through the time, but the very fact that the Orcs could operate such technology is somewhat in favor of them having sufficient intelligence. Add to that how war, unfortunate as it is to admit, does accelerate technological progress.

[geco]

Basically this. Like people calling Baine an alliance leader just because he doesn’t want to go to war and lose more of his people to a war he doesn’t agree with and because he gets along with an alliance leader. It adds layers, but a lot of the forum posters here want only one layer, and for it to be covered in blood of the alliance.

That description also applies to Trall and Voljin.
Baien's problem is that he is never shown doing anything for the Horde and he is shown more than once attacking the Horde.

When Varock said that Teldrazzil was wrong they all took off their shoulder pads because they were on his side.
When he stayed crying in a corner for Anduin to come and tell him to move his ass, they started to hate him.

Baien only revealed himself to save Jaina's Brother. He was fine with Teldrazzil and was waiting for Jaina to tell him what to do.

[Jackstraw]

Huh, I don't recall Genn ever groveling before Varian or Varian ever offering Genn any form of support. The worgen and night elves worked together, but I don't recall the Stormwind humans ever expressing concern for any Gilneans or offering them any help.

Tends to happen when a king would rather seal himself off a ridiculously oversized wall rather than try and make a stand with his neighboring kingdoms.
Pricks tend to get isolated.