Question: Did the Shen'dralar take back Dire Maul West wing?

[Jackstraw]

Tha'ts not what the lore says. And until they say otherwise, or show them as having become rubbish poor mages, I won't believe it and nor should you.

But that's what's currently shown. I'm not talking about the past, and even then Rhonir was on par with current archmages when transported into Sundering times, but as current times go, that's the reality.

[ravenmoon]

It is true that the scourge would never have overcome the magic barrier but that does not mean that beyond defense the military power of quelthalas was not able to fight against the power of the scourge, no individual kingdom of azeroth could.

I believe that so far the shendrelar are weak, but I also believe that if they have access to the moonwells and look for other sources of power they could be more powerful.

the alliance has the most empowered race in the game "human potential".

I also believe that each race has strengths and weaknesses. I believe that the best shamans should be from the horde and I believe that the best druids are undoubtedly the night elves.

I disagree, they had the power to incinerate and obliterate every scourge passing the line, no matter how big that army was, as long as that power remained, it had to be disabled so the scourge could cross, and then the elves found themselves overwhelmed and in chaos.. Those trying to figure out what was wrong and those trying to defend.

And what it turns out was a power beyond the natural world, did Anasterian even stand a chance? it's kinda incredible that Illidan was able to go toe to toe with Arthas for as long as he did. And survived the encounter.

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But that's what's currently shown. I'm not talking about the past, and even then Rhonir was on par with current archmages when transported into Sundering times, but as current times go, that's the reality.

How can not showing them do anything mean they are rubbish when the lore tells you they are the most gifted Arcanists of the night elves?

Surely that just simply means blizz just haven't shown them yet. if blizzard meant them to be rubbish poor mages, they'd have shown them as exactly that - not by absence of input, but by statement, shown orc mages out mage them, and being useless specifically. Rather they are just pretty much not developed like many many other groups in wow, who have occasion mentions, and NPCs showing up but not doing anything.

We never see the Silvermoon guards in action in the story, does that mean they can't fight? Doesn't the lore remark they are very good? but we never see it. Until Legion we never saw the wardens in wow. Do we assume they are rubbish too?

While the Shen'dralar specifically weren't shown, we are told a lot about the Highborne, and shown some in Azsuna and Suramar.. it's not specifically the Shen'dralar, but it gives you an idea of their level of competence and power.

[Jackstraw]

I disagree, they had the power to incinerate and obliterate every scourge passing the line, no matter how big that army was, as long as that power remained, it had to be disabled so the scourge could cross, and then the elves found themselves overwhelmed and in chaos.. Those trying to figure out what was wrong and those trying to defend.

And what it turns out was a power beyond the natural world, did Anasterian even stand a chance? it's kinda incredible that Illidan was able to go toe to toe with Arthas for as long as he did. And survived the encounter.

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How can not showing them do anything mean they are rubbish when the lore tells you they are the most gifted Arcanists of the night elves?

Surely that just simply means blizz just haven't shown them yet. if blizzard meant them to be rubbish poor mages, they'd have shown them as exactly that - not by absence of input, but by statement, shown orc mages out mage them, and being useless specifically. Rather they are just pretty much not developed like many many other groups in wow, who have occasion mentions, and NPCs showing up but not doing anything.

We never see the Silvermoon guards in action in the story, does that mean they can't fight? Doesn't the lore remark they are very good? but we never see it. Until Legion we never saw the wardens in wow. Do we assume they are rubbish too?

While the Shen'dralar specifically weren't shown, we are told a lot about the Highborne, and shown some in Azsuna and Suramar.. it's not specifically the Shen'dralar, but it gives you an idea of their level of competence and power.

We are shown indeed. The Moonguard got eradicated by Nightborne, down to single digit numbers. The Shen'dralar are nowhere to be found. The old magic of the empire has been defeated by whatever we did in Zin'azshari.

[ravenmoon]

We are shown indeed. The Moonguard got eradicated by Nightborne, down to single digit numbers. The Shen'dralar are nowhere to be found. The old magic of the empire has been defeated by whatever we did in Zin'azshari.

teh Shen'rlar survived and allied to the Darnassians, and rebuilt their caste.. all the night elf mages in MoP, WoD, Legion kirin'tor, BFA assaults, those are all from the ones they trained. We might not see much action form them directly, but blizzard has shown the Nelf mages every expansion since they brought them out.

Moonguard survived those, the best of the best, the knowledge, the training, the devices.. survived.. the Nightborne almost wiped them out but didn't, as Moonguard is not a race, they can now train the night elf mages for advanced magical warfare.

The kaldorei empire was destroyed by the Legion first then the sundering wiped the rest out.. we didn't destroy it. however vestiges of it survived in Suramar with the Nightborne, and in Eldre'thalas till up to about 1 or 2,000 years ago when it started falling into ruin to the state the horde meet it in classic. In cataclysm, Estulan the Highborne starts efforts to reclaim and restore the city.


Night elves aren't looking to rebuild a magic empire, but they do have the magic of their empire still with them in their Highborne and Moonguard groups. I estimate the next time blizzard show night elven arcane work it would be through them instead of a new random group. they have a lot to draw from thanks to the activities they developed in legion and cataclysm.

[Beloren]

teh Shen'rlar survived and allied to the Darnassians, and rebuilt their caste.. all the night elf mages in MoP, WoD, Legion kirin'tor, BFA assaults, those are all from the ones they trained. We might not see much action form them directly, but blizzard has shown the Nelf mages every expansion since they brought them out.

Moonguard survived those, the best of the best, the knowledge, the training, the devices.. survived.. the Nightborne almost wiped them out but didn't, as Moonguard is not a race, they can now train the night elf mages for advanced magical warfare.

The kaldorei empire was destroyed by the Legion first then the sundering wiped the rest out.. we didn't destroy it. however vestiges of it survived in Suramar with the Nightborne, and in Eldre'thalas till up to about 1 or 2,000 years ago when it started falling into ruin to the state the horde meet it in classic. In cataclysm, Estulan the Highborne starts efforts to reclaim and restore the city.


Night elves aren't looking to rebuild a magic empire, but they do have the magic of their empire still with them in their Highborne and Moonguard groups. I estimate the next time blizzard show night elven arcane work it would be through them instead of a new random group. they have a lot to draw from thanks to the activities they developed in legion and cataclysm.

It occurs to me the fans are far more into the Shen'dralar than blizz. I don't think you'd see much about them until blizzard decides to delve into the alliance night elves.

I suspect they didn't show up doing much in Legion because Legion night elves were not Darnassians at all, but new groups. Alliance night elves only showed up for 7.1, and only Sentinels showed up with some anicents - no Nelf druids, no wardens, no DHs, no Highborne either - which was odd. I don't htink I even saw Moon Priestesses there.. it was very odd - seeing how detailed the night elf lore was in 7.0 - the Darnassiasn showing by comparison was very sloppy and shoddy. Almost like they wanted to make them look uncommitted to helping.

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They were mentioned in WoT, and their leader shows up in both the mission table and Darkshore warfront of 8.x, so they're conscious of them. However we see far many more of them with the alliance armies in the assault, and in Legion, they were tagged with Kirin'tor operations rather than Darnassian ones..


Don't know if this is sending us a message about them. Remember they showed up as alliance portal casters and mages in WoD - which was interesting they used nigihte lves instead of Draenei and humans.

[Tanaria]

It occurs to me the fans are far more into the Shen'dralar than blizz. I don't think you'd see much about them until blizzard decides to delve into the alliance night elves.

I suspect they didn't show up doing much in Legion because Legion night elves were not Darnassians at all, but new groups. Alliance night elves only showed up for 7.1, and only Sentinels showed up with some anicents - no Nelf druids, no wardens, no DHs, no Highborne either - which was odd. I don't htink I even saw Moon Priestesses there.. it was very odd - seeing how detailed the night elf lore was in 7.0 - the Darnassiasn showing by comparison was very sloppy and shoddy. Almost like they wanted to make them look uncommitted to helping.

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They were mentioned in WoT, and their leader shows up in both the mission table and Darkshore warfront of 8.x, so they're conscious of them. However we see far many more of them with the alliance armies in the assault, and in Legion, they were tagged with Kirin'tor operations rather than Darnassian ones..


Don't know if this is sending us a message about them. Remember they showed up as alliance portal casters and mages in WoD - which was interesting they used nigihte lves instead of Draenei and humans.

I believe fans talk more about the Shen'dralar than Blizzard does.

They get mentioned briefly - I mean one of Tortheldrin's Lorekeeper had traveled to Light's Hope Chapel to deposit a Paladin Archive (Lorekeeper Mykos, I believe), but that's it.
Wrathion talks about them in terms of their library and it being destroyed and them taking a brief study in the Void (which is kind of moot now, because the Void Elves are the big stars in that department.)

And when it comes to Magi, what do the Shen'dralar bring that is different to the Humans and High Elves, for example.

[Jackstraw]

And when it comes to Magi, what do the Shen'dralar bring that is different to the Humans and High Elves, for example.

Knowledge.

In terms of raw power, we're shown the Shen'dralar aren't quite up to the task. However, their vast array of tools originated in the old Kaldorei empire could lead to a better understanding of past foundations of magic and studying new and improved ways to perfect its modern use.

I quoted it to no end, but Telemancy is advanced teleporting. Time magic stems from the Nightwell but can be integrated with something else and made better. Shen'dralars are great abjurers? All the merrier, seals and runes always come in handy.

[Tanaria]

Knowledge.

In terms of raw power, we're shown the Shen'dralar aren't quite up to the task. However, their vast array of tools originated in the old Kaldorei empire could lead to a better understanding of past foundations of magic and studying new and improved ways to perfect its modern use.

I quoted it to no end, but Telemancy is advanced teleporting. Time magic stems from the Nightwell but can be integrated with something else and made better. Shen'dralars are great abjurers? All the merrier, seals and runes always come in handy.

Perhaps, but seeing is believing.

If we could actually see lore based nelf mages like Mordent, actually be given time to shine and to advise the younger races, then we can start giving the Shen'dralar some valid points, but until then...

[Beloren]

I believe fans talk more about the Shen'dralar than Blizzard does.

They get mentioned briefly - I mean one of Tortheldrin's Lorekeeper had traveled to Light's Hope Chapel to deposit a Paladin Archive (Lorekeeper Mykos, I believe), but that's it.
Wrathion talks about them in terms of their library and it being destroyed and them taking a brief study in the Void (which is kind of moot now, because the Void Elves are the big stars in that department.)

And when it comes to Magi, what do the Shen'dralar bring that is different to the Humans and High Elves, for example.

Nothing really, except maybe an ode to the night elves. It is the same thing I thought about nightborne too.. it's all very nice and well, but they bring nothing new.

But then, the question is also flipped back.. do they have to/ Perhaps there purpose is just to show more of kaldorei lore and expand kaldorei story.. or rather advance it - this seems as good a motivation for doing anything.

We are at the point in the story where I want to see more racial development than new strange worlds.. even if it's just for one expansion focusing on the playable races, then back to new worlds - I would like that. Especially for Thalassian elves.. there are soo many things to explore, like I suggest in the Deatholme topic, not to mention when are we going to get an updated Silvermoon and Quel'thalas we haev all this friction with void elves, high elves, lore with San'layn , Amani troll to explore.. what happened to the wretched? How are we viewing EPL and WPL? are we advancing? are we fighting our alliance counterparts or getting a long better or both?

Then like the Shen'dralar are to the night elves, what about our Farstrider and warlock/fel elf sides? The Farstriders are to us pretty much like the shen'dralar/Highborne are tot hem.. they are a huge part of our make up, not the core atm, hmm, well unlike the arcane practitioners for the night elves, Farstriders were never the core, but always a very important military group - Lor'themar is one, Halduron too,

then there is the warlock theme @matrix123mko is really into - I would like to see more of that too. what about Sunreaver battle mage faction? the Magisters are more the intellectuals like the Shen'dralar are, the Sunreavers seem to be the more battle mind lot like the Moonguard are to the night elves. There is all that dynamic.. Rommath and Aethas Sunreaver, could be rivals, they have different philosophies, one is very blood elf inward looking (Rommath), the other is hellbent on blood elves in the international community (Aethas), he wants blood elves to dominate the Kirin'tor and be at the centre of all the institutions of magic. one things if the Farondis restore their academy (or such activity is relocated to Dire Maul /Eldre'thalas in a revamp, - wait do you think they'd give them a new magical learning centre and a city in two different locations?) Aethas would send delegations to have blood elves be a part.


Can you imagine Rommath wanting to capitalise on this in some sort of power struggle, use Aethas over eagerness to paint him as an enemy sympathiser while simultaneously taking glory for everything the blood elf representatives gain for Silvermoon from their time there .. a little bit of rival complexity.

I want to see more.. sigh

Anyway back OT, this could be the reason why we get Shen'dralar development. It is no indication that Dire Maul will be done for them however. every indication points to Hyjal now, but still.. I'm mildly curious what they'll end up deciding they've been doing there

Last update had Estulan successful in the quests he gives us. Adventurers did what he asked... will they use this? because night elves don't have a home and it is abig issue, makes me curious about them.. But I have made it clear I don't want them spending more time giving night elves things, rather focus on updating our zone.

What I am a bit nervous is what would blizzard do? Would it be better for them to open up Suramar to them, and totally focus on rebuilding Quel'thalas into an awesome zone with an awesome city, or should they take time away to sort a city for them in either Hyjal or Feralas and would that leave us with less quality directed to our efforts. I can't decide which is the better option if they were going to do something.

They ofc most likely will do nothing, but then, seeing all the fan interest in both a night elf capital and an update for blood elves (and void/high elves home), can they really afford to do nothing?

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Knowledge.

In terms of raw power, we're shown the Shen'dralar aren't quite up to the task. However, their vast array of tools originated in the old Kaldorei empire could lead to a better understanding of past foundations of magic and studying new and improved ways to perfect its modern use.

I quoted it to no end, but Telemancy is advanced teleporting. Time magic stems from the Nightwell but can be integrated with something else and made better. Shen'dralars are great abjurers? All the merrier, seals and runes always come in handy.

Wow, this is very profound. I like how you put it. @ravenmoon - this is basically your essays surmarised beautifully in an eloquent 2 line paragraph.

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Perhaps, but seeing is believing.

If we could actually see lore based nelf mages like Mordent, actually be given time to shine and to advise the younger races, then we can start giving the Shen'dralar some valid points, but until then...

You and Geco have a point on this one, but so does Jackstraw and Ravennmoon too - blizzard don't tend to show everything, but then should we believe it without seeing it? - your point is not invalid by any means even if the lore has a statement that says otherwise.

If we don't see it in game, how do we know they still have it for sure? We cannot be certain Mr Ravenmoon, we can only say they have the knowledge. You are right that the arguments could have been made for the night elf empire's majesty, and you claim they were made. I don't doubt you, the difference is blizzard ended up SHOWING that empire well in Suramar and Zin'Azshashri, they also showed the Moonguard in battle in Suramar quest lines- so we don't doubt their abilities, also showed Farondis Highborne magical power, as well as Azshara's so we don't doubt them. But they have yet to show the Shen'dralar.


And for a company that often changes their lore, especially stuff they wrote changes much more than stuff we see (but that still changes) Tanaria has a point, even if you think he's being difficult, believe it when you see it.

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@ravenmoon
So far for the shen'dralar, we've seen the mages they trained up in action. They seem just as good as other mages of any race. You may argue that replacing human and draenei mages with night elf mages is actually telling, and you may have a point, but it isn't conclusive, it could just be random substitution they sometimes carry out.

Until they show them to do or create something remarkable and wonder filled, I would say they have yet to fulfil their lore description and they are open to criticism of having lost their edge. If htat is the case, should I believe they've still got it or have it back before I see evidence of this?

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Ok, I'll answer this in one post rather than constantly editing.

The use of Fel Magic in Silvermoon is a very small niche. Yes, some Blood Elves still continue the practice, but it's few and far between. The Farstriders do get small lore developments. The Blood Elf presence in Nazjatar was that of the Farstriders, under Lor'themar's command and the Ranger Captain, Natacha.
Now Fel Magic and the Fel Crystals (in the main), have been removed and replaced by Blood Crystals/Gems from the Isle of Thunder. It's highly likely that the only Fel Crystal that has confirmation of remaining in Silvermoon would be the one in the Sanctum, beneath Murder Row, where the Elven Warlocks practice.

The use of Fel Magic in Silvermoon is very similar to the use of the Arcane (not in terms of Elune, but the arcane that mages draw upon), in Night Elf society. It's a very small niche and not every elf is going to jump at it. Druidism, Sentinel and the Priesthood are still the main paths for the average Darnassian.

It seems to me, that as a rule of thumb, people do indeed like these niche aspects of Blood Elf and Night Elf society, but they are niche and uptake of practice is small.

Now, as you say - we do have crossovers, but as far as the Horde Silvermoon and Alliance Hyjal (??) Elves go, these niches in question, aside from the Sin'dorei Battle-Magi concept, are few and far between.

This is Blizzard as well.

[ravenmoon]

@Tanaria, @Jackstraw and @Beloren

TIME WILL TELL !!!!!!! . If blizzard accurately show them based on their lore, they will be incredible in this field .. but there are mitigating factors, blizzard could nerf them in the present - they always nerf the playable night elf faction in wow, ALWAYS (okay maybe Tyrande's show in 8.1 was the exception) - but everyone knows they constantly nerf them, so it wouldn't entirely surprise me if we didn't see a good showing later - it won't even disappoint, it would just be another quip for fans to point at blizz for either nerfing nelves or not being consistent.

They could be perpetually ignored, happens a alot, so we will never know.

however @Tanaria, absence of evidence is not proof of lack. Please bare that in mind. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean that is proof they are rubbish.

If blizzard want to give night elves an amazing city and give them a strong showing down the line, they have this group as one of their key tools to use, and the Moonguard also. If blizzard want to show wonderful arcane works of the night elves in the actual playable group - they have given themselves the best group in the lore for that purpose. They wrote the shen'drlaar to be the wonder maestros, so don't be surprised if they use them when they want to build up the night elves into a great race again.

[Beloren]

Ok, I'll answer this in one post rather than constantly editing.

The use of Fel Magic in Silvermoon is a very small niche. Yes, some Blood Elves still continue the practice, but it's few and far between. The Farstriders do get small lore developments. The Blood Elf presence in Nazjatar was that of the Farstriders, under Lor'themar's command and the Ranger Captain, Natacha.
Now Fel Magic and the Fel Crystals (in the main), have been removed and replaced by Blood Crystals/Gems from the Isle of Thunder. It's highly likely that the only Fel Crystal that has confirmation of remaining in Silvermoon would be the one in the Sanctum, beneath Murder Row, where the Elven Warlocks practice.

The use of Fel Magic in Silvermoon is very similar to the use of the Arcane (not in terms of Elune, but the arcane that mages draw upon), in Night Elf society. It's a very small niche and not every elf is going to jump at it. Druidism, Sentinel and the Priesthood are still the main paths for the average Darnassian.

It seems to me, that as a rule of thumb, people do indeed like these niche aspects of Blood Elf and Night Elf society, but they are niche and uptake of practice is small.

Now, as you say - we do have crossovers, but as far as the Horde Silvermoon and Alliance Hyjal (??) Elves go, these niches in question, aside from the Sin'dorei Battle-Magi concept, are few and far between.

This is Blizzard as well.

True, but then should blizzard expand these portions further too because they are popular with the fans of these races? not universally so, but htey do garner a lot of interest, and it's not as if some of these facets play a lot in the lore of the groups in question.

The arcane use , by mages is a major factor in the Hyjal group. The absence of practice of magic influenced and dominated this group for a long time, and now they've lifted it, it i is still one of their central issues it doesn't look like it was small or niche, it's just that it's actual visibility is small, but it's subject matter is huge.

Fel with us is slightly different, fel is the foundation of how we were distinguished from those that remained high elves, it plays a role in our origin but undoubtedly development shifted away from that after TBC. But why do some fans want us to be masters of fel?

[ravenmoon]

Ok, I'll answer this in one post rather than constantly editing.

The use of Fel Magic in Silvermoon is a very small niche. Yes, some Blood Elves still continue the practice, but it's few and far between. The Farstriders do get small lore developments. The Blood Elf presence in Nazjatar was that of the Farstriders, under Lor'themar's command and the Ranger Captain, Natacha.
Now Fel Magic and the Fel Crystals (in the main), have been removed and replaced by Blood Crystals/Gems from the Isle of Thunder. It's highly likely that the only Fel Crystal that has confirmation of remaining in Silvermoon would be the one in the Sanctum, beneath Murder Row, where the Elven Warlocks practice.

The use of Fel Magic in Silvermoon is very similar to the use of the Arcane (not in terms of Elune, but the arcane that mages draw upon), in Night Elf society. It's a very small niche and not every elf is going to jump at it. Druidism, Sentinel and the Priesthood are still the main paths for the average Darnassian.

It seems to me, that as a rule of thumb, people do indeed like these niche aspects of Blood Elf and Night Elf society, but they are niche and uptake of practice is small.

Now, as you say - we do have crossovers, but as far as the Horde Silvermoon and Alliance Hyjal (??) Elves go, these niches in question, aside from the Sin'dorei Battle-Magi concept, are few and far between.

This is Blizzard as well.

Niches in the playable faction yes, but they are NOT niches in the umbrella racial groups overall.

arcane (as in mage usage) maybe a small group, but it's far more represented amongst the Darnassians than fel has been expounded amongst the blood leves.. and in the wider night elf representation and umbrella group it is far larger.

Perhaps those of us who also like it might have to settle for its occurrence in the Nightborne, naga, Moonguard and Farondis who are non faction aligned night elf groups and ofc pre-sundering tales. - perhaps.. but it would be nice to see more of that stuff associated with the Hyjal group too.

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True, but then should blizzard expand these portions further too because they are popular with the fans of these races? not universally so, but htey do garner a lot of interest, and it's not as if some of these facets play a lot in the lore of the groups in question.

The arcane use , by mages is a major factor in the Hyjal group. The absence of practice of magic influenced and dominated this group for a long time, and now they've lifted it, it i is still one of their central issues it doesn't look like it was small or niche, it's just that it's actual visibility is small, but it's subject matter is huge.

Fel with us is slightly different, fel is the foundation of how we were distinguished from those that remained high elves, it plays a role in our origin but undoubtedly development shifted away from that after TBC. But why do some fans want us to be masters of fel?

It shifted purely because you were been written more as your high elf past than what your blood elf future could have been.

Blizzard wanted you to be alliance high elves but on team red, instead of blood elves a different faction of reformed high elves. All the traits of your bad boy renegade behaviour have been heavily downplayed since TBC, you are essentially alliance high elves with some minor variation. They basically put alliance high elves on the horde without making them different.

What they should have done is ALSO show the fel mastery part in your faction. Yes it exists outside your faction in the fel elves and Illidari blood elves, but not in your faction. They are far more heavily focused on showing your light qualities than anything else currently. They might shift to your fel expertise later.. it is there in the lore so maybe they haven't moved away from it, or maybe they did, and they will move back to it so they can make you feel more different from alliance high elves which are now a thing.

also @Tanaria , Farstrider involvement in Naz'jatar was so minimal. Yes they were there, but they only play a visible role in the opening sequence.. and are barely shown with Lor'themar who is also barely shown, just like Genn is - under used if you ask me. I wouldn't really count it as serious Farstrider involvement, not in the level Beloren seems to have suggested in the reply above.

[Tanaria]

Niches in the playable faction yes, but they are NOT niches in the umbrella racial groups overall.

arcane (as in mage usage) maybe a small group, but it's far more represented amongst the Darnassians than fel has been expounded amongst the blood leves.. and in the wider night elf representation and umbrella group it is far larger.

Perhaps those of us who also like it might have to settle for its occurrence in the Nightborne, naga, Moonguard and Farondis who are non faction aligned night elf groups and ofc pre-sundering tales. - perhaps.. but it would be nice to see more of that stuff associated with the Hyjal group too.

Probably.

Blizzard seem quite clear on keeping niche aspects, niche and the main aspects at the forefront.
Extremely prevalent during the Darkshore and Arathi Warfronts.

You can still play a Blood Elf Warlock or Night Elf Mage, but their roles in society are extremely small and very niche. Both are not looked well upon (Kael'thas and Azshara's doing, respectively.)

True, but then should blizzard expand these portions further too because they are popular with the fans of these races? not universally so, but htey do garner a lot of interest, and it's not as if some of these facets play a lot in the lore of the groups in question.

The arcane use , by mages is a major factor in the Hyjal group. The absence of practice of magic influenced and dominated this group for a long time, and now they've lifted it, it i is still one of their central issues it doesn't look like it was small or niche, it's just that it's actual visibility is small, but it's subject matter is huge.

Fel with us is slightly different, fel is the foundation of how we were distinguished from those that remained high elves, it plays a role in our origin but undoubtedly development shifted away from that after TBC. But why do some fans want us to be masters of fel?

True, but it's timing.

I mean, if their was a choice to develop a Human Mage or Night Elf Mage, the Human will likely win every time, because Human Magi are just more popular and being exposed to the Kirin Tor twice...night elf mages stand no chance.

Fel was an aspect in showcasing the differences between Blood Elves and High Elves, but it was an aspect. The main thing that drove the current High Elves away was not fel magic...it was the sucking of arcane creatures to sate addiction. It was, for all intensive purposes, an Arcane-magical practical, but not a practice the High Elves liked.

But also, we've got the Blood Knights, who weren't a thing with the High Elves. Fel was just one of three aspects that showed differences between Blood Elves and High Elves.

Now, the Blood Elves have forsaken a lot of their use and reliance on fel magic, for Blood and Fire magical practices.

It shifted purely because you were been written more as your high elf past than what your blood elf future could have been.

Blizzard wanted you to be alliance high elves but on team red, instead of blood elves a different faction of reformed high elves. All the traits of your bad boy renegade behaviour have been heavily downplayed since TBC, you are essentially alliance high elves with some minor variation. They basically put alliance high elves on the horde without making them different.

What they should have done is ALSO show the fel mastery part in your faction. Yes it exists outside your faction in the fel elves and Illidari blood elves, but not in your faction. They are far more heavily focused on showing your light qualities than anything else currently. They might shift to your fel expertise later.. it is there in the lore so maybe they haven't moved away from it, or maybe they did, and they will move back to it so they can make you feel more different from alliance high elves which are now a thing.

also @Tanaria , Farstrider involvement in Naz'jatar was so minimal. Yes they were there, but they only play a visible role in the opening sequence.. and are barely shown with Lor'themar who is also barely shown, just like Genn is - under used if you ask me. I wouldn't really count it as serious Farstrider involvement, not in the level Beloren seems to have suggested in the reply above.

Both factions' involvement was minimal.
Everything from the Alliance to the Horde was small.

But the point still stands. The Silvermoon Blood Elves did what they thought was right. The Sunfury Blood Elves (Blood Elf Demon hunters and Void Elves) are now more of your "bad boy Thalassians."
As Liadrin says, "We have not lose who we are" but they are still Sin'dorei since they continue to fight for those who died during Arthas' attack.

Whatever problems the Sin'dorei have, are only problems that the High Elves have. The Sin'dorei aren't going to change, to please Vereesa and her little band of thugs.

[Jackstraw]

Perhaps, but seeing is believing.

If we could actually see lore based nelf mages like Mordent, actually be given time to shine and to advise the younger races, then we can start giving the Shen'dralar some valid points, but until then...

Believe it or not, we actually see the Shen'dralar contributing with artifact and knowledge in game.
During Cataclysm, in the Molten Front campaign, Kaldorei mages offer support in all the efforts concerning the Firelands, including but not limited to selling of ancient artifacts of considerable power.

My take is then that, although their field of expertise narrowed due to cultural and - let's say - external circumstances, what they're good at is actually really good.
Unlike other Kaldorei, who still keep a proven excellence in the divine and natural magic.

[ravenmoon]

Probably.

Blizzard seem quite clear on keeping niche aspects, niche and the main aspects at the forefront.
Extremely prevalent during the Darkshore and Arathi Warfronts.

You can still play a Blood Elf Warlock or Night Elf Mage, but their roles in society are extremely small and very niche. Both are not looked well upon (Kael'thas and Azshara's doing, respectively.)

No, they brought those aspects forward as a focus for the first time since wow began, yet in the previous expansion focused on a demon hunters, highborne, wardens and Suramar night elves. - Could I not have made that argument except for the other side too.


All it shows me , in the wider picture is that both aspects are important, and they are certainly not niche.

True, but it's timing.

I mean, if their was a choice to develop a Human Mage or Night Elf Mage, the Human will likely win every time, because Human Magi are just more popular and being exposed to the Kirin Tor twice...night elf mages stand no chance.

And yet you keep seeing Night elf mages a lot, where they could have used human mages, and night elven sorcerers still play a large role, I mean Azshara and Illidan - look at them, Elisande, Thalyssra and Farondis , what's that telling you? Mage craft and wizadry is a large part of the night elf storyline.

Fel was an aspect in showcasing the differences between Blood Elves and High Elves, but it was an aspect. The main thing that drove the current High Elves away was not fel magic...it was the sucking of arcane creatures to sate addiction. It was, for all intensive purposes, an Arcane-magical practical, but not a practice the High Elves liked.

But also, we've got the Blood Knights, who weren't a thing with the High Elves. Fel was just one of three aspects that showed differences between Blood Elves and High Elves.

Now, the Blood Elves have forsaken a lot of their use and reliance on fel magic, for Blood and Fire magical practices.

And yet you boast about

Both factions' involvement was minimal.
Everything from the Alliance to the Horde was small.

But the point still stands. The Silvermoon Blood Elves did what they thought was right. The Sunfury Blood Elves (Blood Elf Demon hunters and Void Elves) are now more of your "bad boy Thalassians."
As Liadrin says, "We have not lose who we are" but they are still Sin'dorei since they continue to fight for those who died during Arthas' attack.

Indeed, which was why I surprised you counted the even tinier sin'dorei involvement as showing Farstrider stuff

Whatever problems the Sin'dorei have, are only problems that the High Elves have. The Sin'dorei aren't going to change, to please Vereesa and her little band of thugs.

It's the developers that develop Tanaria, whatever we want or think should happen. you keep stressing the kaldorei sentinel and druids stuff recently shown as an indication of their main direction/thing.. while it is a main characteristic of that group, I should point out to you that the light amongst the sin'dorei is what's been greatly developed.. and by your standards this means that this is what the blood elves are going to be chiefly about.

Arcane and fel are in the past.. they are still there, but it's the light.

You constantly criticise my inclusion of night elven arcane lore and display in the game as I try to point out to the community that it's apart of a wider picture, and as a sum of the whole it is relevant. It suits your arguments to minimise it because of your faction bias which is why you keep harping on to only tehe forest side, yet the same thing is happening with your blood elves, and you love the arcane lore they have, yet the light is dominating.

You don't apply the same standard across the board, this is evidence of your bias and your agenda, even if you're not aware of it.

It would be better if you acknowledged both, and changed your viewpoint from being threatened by kaldorei getting great magic and cities alongside their druidic and sentinel portions and rather celebrate the fullness of a race even if you don't particularly play/like them...

meanwhile appreciate your blood elves for being their own arcane , light, fel, hunting based race in the man they have shown, and stop trying to control them into one aspect.. you might end up finding you lose out entirely if blizzard takes your view, because they can just as easily switch the blood elves to a singular light focus and use the Nightborne for the arcane.. because players like you kept campaigning, twisting the truth, arguing against all others for that singular focus..all becuase you didn't want night elves to look good like your blood elves.

Beware, beware, you might actually get what you asked for. Don't come crying on here when it is not to your liking. You will find no pity or comfort.

[Jackstraw]

@Tanaria, @Jackstraw and @Beloren

TIME WILL TELL !!!!!!! .

Time already told. We went through this.
If we enter speculation we can probably argue that some Shen'dralar would eventually rise to Khagdar levels of power, or Jaina, or any of the main Nightborne cast.
As it stands their knowledge cannot be argued and neither their sheer DBZ power level.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

The first two patches of Legion focused on Night Elf stuff, but had Khadgar and Velen involved.
Then in 7.3, Velen and the Draenei story was enhanced.

And night elf sorcerers don't play a large role. Where were they during 8.1? Where were they during 8.2? Not even the 7th Legion in Nazjatar had any night elf mages...it's just like the Blood Elf Warlocks. Hardly shown...maybe an NPC or two dotted around for a quest.

I counted the forces that were involved in the Nazjatar story. Shal'dorei Arcanists, Sin'dorei Rangers, Honorbound Warriors. These were the Horde forces.

The Sin'dorei Rangers were the main use to defeat one of Azshara's Sea Witches, when the Horde first lands in Nazjatar and meets up with Lor'themar.

It's the developers that develop Tanaria, whatever we want or think should happen. you keep stressing the kaldorei sentinel and druids stuff recently shown as an indication of their main direction/thing.. while it is a main characteristic of that group, I should point out to you that the light amongst the sin'dorei is what's been greatly developed.. and by your standards this means that this is what the blood elves are going to be chiefly about.

Arcane and fel are in the past.. they are still there, but it's the light.

You constantly criticise my inclusion of night elven arcane lore and display in the game as I try to point out to the community that it's apart of a wider picture, and as a sum of the whole it is relevant. It suits your arguments to minimise it because of your faction bias which is why you keep harping on to only tehe forest side, yet the same thing is happening with your blood elves, and you love the arcane lore they have, yet the light is dominating.

You don't apply the same standard across the board, this is evidence of your bias and your agenda, even if you're not aware of it.

It would be better if you acknowledged both, and changed your viewpoint from being threatened by kaldorei getting great magic and cities alongside their druidic and sentinel portions and rather celebrate the fullness of a race even if you don't particularly play/like them...

meanwhile appreciate your blood elves for being their own arcane , light, fel, hunting based race in the man they have shown, and stop trying to control them into one aspect.. you might end up finding you lose out entirely if blizzard takes your view, because they can just as easily switch the blood elves to a singular light focus and use the Nightborne for the arcane.. because players like you kept campaigning, twisting the truth, arguing against all others for that singular focus..all becuase you didn't want night elves to look good like your blood elves.

Beware, beware, you might actually get what you asked for. Don't come crying on here when it is not to your liking. You will find no pity or comfort.

I've never denied that the Light is a big thing in their society.

Why do you think one of my 3 most played characters are a Blood Elf Paladin? My 3 best characters in WoW are always my Blood Elf Mage, Blood Elf Hunter and Blood Elf Paladin, because they represent the core fighting force of current Quel'Thalas and I do love it.
Would I love a bit lore on their Magi side? Yes, but I'm not complaining since I did get to see some of that with some their Fire Mages in Arathi and the Blood Mages in Nazmir, along with some Blood Elf Arcane Mages joining the Honorbound, with their Nightborne cousins.

The Blood Knights (Paladins), Magisters (Mages) and Farstriders (Hunters, Rogues and maybe Warriors) are the three core sections of Sin'dorei society.

Demon Hunters, like their night elf counterparts in the lore, aren't part of the core Silvermoon society. Whether they will be or not is up for debate. I'd reckon they won't be.
Warlocks now, are a very small niche, with most blood elves choosing to wield fire and blood magic
Death Knights aren't part of Sin'dorei society, but if you wanted to RP a San'layn, then Blood Death Knight fills that.

[ravenmoon]

Why do you think one of my 3 most played characters are a Blood Elf Paladin? My 3 best characters in WoW are always my Blood Elf Mage, Blood Elf Hunter and Blood Elf Paladin, because they represent the core fighting force of current Quel'Thalas and I do love it.
Would I love a bit lore on their Magi side? Yes, but I'm not complaining since I did get to see some of that with some their Fire Mages in Arathi and the Blood Mages in Nazmir, along with some Blood Elf Arcane Mages joining the Honorbound, with their Nightborne cousins.

The Blood Knights (Paladins), Magisters (Mages) and Farstriders (Hunters, Rogues and maybe Warriors) are the three core sections of Sin'dorei society.

Demon Hunters, like their night elf counterparts in the lore, aren't part of the core Silvermoon society. Whether they will be or not is up for debate. I'd reckon they won't be.
Warlocks now, are a very small niche, with most blood elves choosing to wield fire and blood magic
Death Knights aren't part of Sin'dorei society, but if you wanted to RP a San'layn, then Blood Death Knight fills that.

My main characters were a night elf demon hunter, blood elf hunter, nightborne warlock and void elf priest

[Tanaria]

My main characters were a night elf demon hunter, blood elf hunter, nightborne warlock and void elf priest

Congrats, but I chose mine because I want to play alongside the main aspects of Quel'Thalas.