[Speculation] Arthas Possessing Anduin? *spoilers*

[Saltysquidoon]

As far as I know, the RTS games are not direct canon to WoW.

That is so brain bendingly wrong I don't even know how you could say it with a straight face. If the RTS games were non-canon how could WoW exist? The only parts of the RTS series that are non-canon are the parts contradicted by later canon with his only by virtue of it being more recent not as a result of WoW having some primacy (which it certainly doesn't since the supposed canon supplementary books and novella regularly build upon and contradict the game).

Further Arthas' soul being the first one stolen by frostmourne is a foundational aspect of the character, I can't think of anything in wow that could even vaguely be interpreted as contradicting this.

[Rexosaurus]

Sounds dumb, so that's probably what's going on.

[LordVargK]

Well we know he was thrown into the maw.

But again, why did uther double take towards him, as if he felt a familiar presence and touch his scar, I dont think Uther ever even met Anduin as a baby.

Uther's scar was made with domination magic, the same magic now in Anduin's sword. Maybe he reacted to the presence of strong domination magic nearby.

[Mic_128]

Uther's scar was made with domination magic, the same magic now in Anduin's sword. Maybe he reacted to the presence of strong domination magic nearby.

Eh, I just think it was because from that side-on view, Anduin looked a lot like Arthas.

[catalystical]

That sounds like a possibility.

But my theory is we will see Arthas crossing paths with the reborn Sylvanas.

Arthas afterall did his own thing. He was a failure in the eyes of the Jailor and he holds the key to helping Anduin snap out of the Jailor's domination magic. Sylvanas may even be tasked to go find Arthas. In Uther's quest a soul ripped apart by a mourneblade has their memories tainted. Sylvanas will have to deal with hers too and she will have to deal with some twisted version her memories, like of her soul being ripped apart by Arthas.

It will be quite interesting to see how their interaction will be when a reborn Sylvanas meets a broken Arthas and how that may help Sylvanas finally find peace.

[Selah]

Well we know he was thrown into the maw.

But again, why did uther double take towards him, as if he felt a familiar presence and touch his scar, I dont think Uther ever even met Anduin as a baby.

That doesn't mean his soul was made into a crystal. From what I'm aware we know nothing of Arthas' fate currently. He could be a crystal or he could just be chained up somewhere.

Beyond that, we don't know much about these crystals even. From what I understand the only two interactions we've had with them is that the other half of Sylanas' soul was in one, and Uther's other half was in another. The only connection between the two is they were both killed by Frostmourne - a mourneblade. Which Anduin was wielding when he walked past Uther, which seemingly caused him to suffer some sort of ghost pain.

That leads to another issue, we don't know if Arthas' soul was ever claimed by Frostmourne. Remember, so far the lore indicates that souls that are split are only done so when killed by that blade. Frostmourne was shattered before Arthas died. From what we can tell, there was never a split in Arthas' soul, and the cinematic depicting his death seemingly showed his soul being whole as he was carried off to the Maw.

Now, given what we do know, there is the chance that King Terenas Menethil was forged into the sword which would be an interesting twist for Anduin.

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Agreed. Besides, whhy would the Blue Man want to socket Andy's blade precisely with the spirit/soul or w/e of Arthas? As far as we know, from Zovaal's PoV Arthas was quite an unruly, and ultimately unsatisfactory employee.

The relationship between Zovaal and Arthas had been an absolute mystery throughout this entire expansion. I'd be really curious to see them explore that relationship. Though, admittedly, I don't trust them to do that right now *glances at the 9.1 raid cinematic *

[Bylak]

Sounds dumb, so that's probably what's going on.

This reply made me literally lol. Thank you for bringing some joy to my day!

[Eapoe]

That is so brain bendingly wrong I don't even know how you could say it with a straight face. If the RTS games were non-canon how could WoW exist? The only parts of the RTS series that are non-canon are the parts contradicted by later canon with his only by virtue of it being more recent not as a result of WoW having some primacy (which it certainly doesn't since the supposed canon supplementary books and novella regularly build upon and contradict the game).

Further Arthas' soul being the first one stolen by frostmourne is a foundational aspect of the character, I can't think of anything in wow that could even vaguely be interpreted as contradicting this.

Because it’s been shown that there are differences between the RTS games and WoW and they aren’t 100% identical in how things have happened. The foundation was there and is almost completely alike, but they aren’t 100%.
Much like how the Star Wars novels have been stated to be not canon but they are still pulling source material from them for movies.
His soul also wasn’t stolen. It was given when he took up the cursed sword. He knowingly gave it when seeking vengeance on Malganis, which is shown in game in WoW. If it is shown differently in WC3 then they obviously are not canonically identical, are they?

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I mean, his soul gets stolen by Frostmourne either way. What difference does it make if it gets claimed by being struck or by willingly offering it?

1st: because it was given, not stolen. So saying stolen it is spreading a false narrative.
2nd: the established lore we have, right now, is that it is done to some people (not all considering we’ve only seen 2 victims of it) when they are struck down by the sword. Not by possessing it.

[Saltysquidoon]

Because it’s been shown that there are differences between the RTS games and WoW and they aren’t 100% identical in how things have happened. The foundation was there and is almost completely alike, but they aren’t 100%.
Much like how the Star Wars novels have been stated to be not canon but they are still pulling source material from them for movies.

No, you aren't comparing startwars books to movies, you're comparing the OT to the PT (or at this point the ST)

His soul also wasn’t stolen. It was given when he took up the cursed sword. He knowingly gave it when seeking vengeance on Malganis, which is shown in game in WoW. If it is shown differently in WC3 then they obviously are not canonically identical, are they?.

First of all are you implying you're trying to discuss lore around arthas without having played or watch ROC or TFT? That's folly because WoW constantly calls back to events in those games about him without directly showing anything making the RTS games defacto canon (because otherwise what are they calling back to).

Further, the 'Arthas claims frostmourne' cinematic in Wrath is a shot-for-shot recreation of the events in WCIII (or at least as much of a recreation as wows shitty in-game cutscenes could be at the time), the script is the same though which matters for our purposes.
Whomsoever takes up this blade shall wield power eternal. Just as the blade rends flesh, so must power scar the spirit.. Immediately after this arthas states he was willing to 'pay any price' so not only was his soul stolen he knew it was going to happen.
Tichondrius then confirms in the next mission that Frostmourne steals souls and Arthas' soul was the first one it stole..

[iamthedevil]

"Whomsoever takes up this blade shall wield power eternal. Just as the blade rends flesh, so must power scar the spirit."

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1st: because it was given, not stolen. So saying stolen it is spreading a false narrative.

Seems pretty misleading so I'd say you are spreading a false narrative lol.

[Soon-TM]

"Whomsoever takes up this blade shall wield power eternal. Just as the blade rends flesh, so must power scar the spirit."

Seems pretty misleading so I'd say you are spreading a false narrative lol.

Meh, he/she is ultimately doing the same thing as Danuser & co., i.e. retconning recontextualising everything in the old lore that Constrains™ them.

[Eapoe]

"Whomsoever takes up this blade shall wield power eternal. Just as the blade rends flesh, so must power scar the spirit."

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Seems pretty misleading so I'd say you are spreading a false narrative lol.

How is it misleading? Also, Magni literally tells him it’s a cursed blade before Arthas chooses to take it and leave him for dead.

[rhorle]

Immediately after this arthas states he was willing to 'pay any price' so not only was his soul stolen he knew it was going to happen.

How can something be stolen when it is given as payment? Arthas willingly gave his soul for the power. As you stated he said he was willing to pay any price. Also the dialogue says "Yours was the first one it claimed". It never says anything about it being stolen.

I think to much is getting hung up on the word steal. The blade was empowered to take souls and would do so even if one was willingly given to the blade. The enchantment did not have a moral code that would refuse a soul if it is was willing. The thing we do know is that Tichondrius, and the dreadlords, were lying in the dialogue. It wasn't forged by the Lich King but in fact the Jailer (or the runecarver).

We also know that the sword doesn't steal the soul of whoever holds it since several would have to have held it. And even the reforged version (Legion Artifact) doesn't consume the soul of the person holding it. Though that would likely be a less powerful version due to the shattering despite empowering it again to feed on souls. So something else would have had to help Arthas give his soul away then simply holding/using the sword.

https://youtu.be/b917r9duQTA?t=71 that video link starts at the "Yours was the first one it claimed" line.

[Razion]

It would but Varian died before the wheel of death broke so he wouldn't be with the jailer.

Do we know exactly when in Legion it broke? Isn't it speculation?

I think the major complication with Varian is we aren't sure if Gul'dan destroyed his soul along with his body when he evaporated him.

[Saltysquidoon]

How can something be stolen when it is given as payment? Arthas willingly gave his soul for the power. As you stated he said he was willing to pay any price. Also the dialogue says "Yours was the first one it claimed". It never says anything about it being stolen.

You're right it's ultimately a semantic argument, and we could continue to litigate it (did Arthas give informed consent, can you even consent, given the sword obligatorily takes the soul no matter what can it even be characterised as payment or a gift). But ultimately that's all drift, the entire debate started by a poster arguing arthas didn't have his soul taken by frostmourne which I think most people here ultimately agree is not supported by the existing lore.

We also know that the sword doesn't steal the soul of whoever holds it since several would have to have held it. And even the reforged version (Legion Artifact) doesn't consume the soul of the person holding it. Though that would likely be a less powerful version due to the shattering despite empowering it again to feed on souls. So something else would have had to help Arthas give his soul away then simply holding/using the sword.

Who touched Forstmourne other than Arthas ever (Unless you're counting the people who 'touched' the pointy bit with their chest)?
Further, the blades of the fallen prince had the soul-stealing aspect heavily played down by blizzard, the soul-stealing artifact ability was scrapped in the alpha for the passive spectral blades, and soulreaper was renamed frostreaper, the only aspect of the succ that remained on live was the passive soul biter that was just a damage bonus.
Also, how do we know PC DKs of the races who could canonically have been the deathlord even have their entire soul (thanks danuser for this gift that keeps on giving)? They were directly raised by frostmourne after all.

[Mic_128]

Arthas [...]and he holds the key to helping Anduin snap out of the Jailor's domination magic.

Whuh? What key is that?

[gcsmith]

Was Arthas soul split and put in a crystal? He was never hurt by frostmourne? Also by your logic Arthas hair turned gray because he was controlled by his own soul? None of these shower thoughts make any sense.

The curse said whoever wields it has their soul damaged, so maybe if you actually draw on its power you lose part of your soul to it.

[Shaqthefat]

As far as I know, the RTS games are not direct canon to WoW. Just a main driving force and huge well of lore to draw from as/if needed.
That stated, what I mean is this: if in WC3 he was struck down by Frostmourne before becoming the LK, then that is in direct conflict with WoW as it’s shown, in game, that he and Magni tracked it down and Arthas willingly took up the cursed blade and thereby gave up his soul.

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To the OP:
Blizzard could go this direction. I’d rather they did not, but that’s my opinion. It could be just as likely that Zovaal just needed a powerful soul to empower the blade and bind the user to him.

As to Uther, he could have easily just have touched his scar due to the similarities between Anduin and the new blade to that of Arthas.

They're a direct canon. Can't believe there are people who actually believe they aren't canon. Arthas's soul was claimed by Frostmourne when he first picked it up. That was shown and established in WC3

[kaelix1]

That is so brain bendingly wrong I don't even know how you could say it with a straight face. If the RTS games were non-canon how could WoW exist? The only parts of the RTS series that are non-canon are the parts contradicted by later canon with his only by virtue of it being more recent not as a result of WoW having some primacy (which it certainly doesn't since the supposed canon supplementary books and novella regularly build upon and contradict the game).

Further Arthas' soul being the first one stolen by frostmourne is a foundational aspect of the character, I can't think of anything in wow that could even vaguely be interpreted as contradicting this.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Arthas soul been first that was taken by frostmourne is not only said in W3 lore but in WOTLK lore as well, i remember Uther himself said it at one point(or might be another character)

[TickTickTick]

Agreed. Besides, whhy would the Blue Man want to socket Andy's blade precisely with the spirit/soul or w/e of Arthas? As far as we know, from Zovaal's PoV Arthas was quite an unruly, and ultimately unsatisfactory employee.

TBH, it was Mal'Ganis who lured Arthas to Northrend and Frostmourne. It's entirely possible Arthas soul is a very powerful / special one and the Jailer decided that even though Arthas kind of opposed his will, he doesnt want this soul to go to waste. So he just used it to further enforce his will.