Seriously, what do you really want to see I. World of Warcraft ?

[Tanaria]

@Mace and @Tanaria
However I kinda get the impression that realistically, the blood elves would try to connect more to the blood elf demon hunters, but the night elves will view them both as the same.

Well, as far as the Blood Elves go - they shunned the Demon Hunters as "freaks" during Legion, as stated by the Demon Hunter in the Vault of the Wardens.

I think their is a lot of interest to go off with this, rather than just putting the Blood Elf Demon Hunters on Outland and building some odd connection to the demonic Felblood Elves.
If Kayn Sunfury did return to Quel'Thalas, then I reckon we're in for an equally interesting time as the Night Elves, because the Silvermoon Blood Elves were not exactly keen on their Demon Hunter kin.

[Jackstraw]

Illidan may have been the only demon hunter shown in WC3, but he wasn't the only demon hunter, there were other night elf demon hunters who'd also been around for millennia. Illyana Ravencrest is one of them, and she isn't the only one.

Check out Legion expansion lore.

Fair enough.

Although really, Illysanna goes rogue after Kur'thalos dies, and reappears in the Vault of the Wardens as the War of the Ancient dies having followed Illidan's footsteps and somehow became a full fledged demon within Demon Hunter.

Which is strange, given the length Illidari go to get their power and to awake the Demon Within. But whatever, it's in the game. Still, Illysanna had even less exposure to the overall Kaldorei culture than Illidan given that nobody knew of her existance previous to her appearance in Blackrook Hold.

I'm not suggesting they return to their faction, yo'u'd know this if you acutally read what I said. I am duscussing how they would interact with thier kin, lest you forget you play a demon hunter night elf hero who is canoniccally involved with the things of the night elves.

I'm not nitpicking on your dialogue, and please do not suggest that, but the adherence of Illidari and Kaldorei and the reunion of Night elven DHs to their kin is a return to their faction. The DH hero is not involved with the NE things for anything other than gameplay reasons. And following to your statement and once more: the Illidari are not a NE led and based group. Their forefather and leader is one, but it has no roots in NE culture, does not identify as a NE group, its strokes are not NE.

And for all we know and to spice the discussion up, the roots of DH practice could very well be in the Zandalari daemoniacs, which possibly predate the entire NE civilization. The Fel as a tool has been abandoned for quite some time from the empire, but we know it was spread to a point in the past.

[Mace]

But where does that leave Blood Elf Demon Hunters? They are Illidari just as much as they nelf counterparts. I mean forget the whole "Outland/Fel Elf" nonsense, since that whole thing with the Blood Elves died in TBC - when the Silvermoon Blood Elves stepped through the Dark Portal and were horrified to discover the land and what the Sunfury were doing.

The Blood Elves, during Legion, shunned the Demon Hunters as "freaks." We know this via the Blood Elf Demon Hunter boss in Vault of the Wardens.

This is a very interesting avenue to explore, as you wouldn't expect this from the Blood Elves.

it doesn't have to be equal, and no one is leaving the blood elf ones in the dust, I just think that in general we will see more night elf related demon hunter stuff than blood elf, just like we see more night elf related druid stuff than we see tauren, troll or worgen. The tauren druids are just as dedicated, it 's just that druidism is more night elf centric and like demon hunters is often shown more with respect to them.

It doesn't mean that tauren or troll or worgen druidism aren't shown or explored, in the same way I think blood elf demon hunter with respect to blood elves would be seen. And I would support some stories that explore them interacting with blood elves. I'd like that too, I just feel that most would be interacting with night elves, and we'd see both night elven and blood elf ones them, I also think this is fitting - but that's just my opinion and you may feel it needs to be 50/50 - but like druidism and Elunism, Illidari/demon hunting is a night elf based thing.

It depends on whether the Night Elves want to spend those efforts on trying to restore the Temple. I mean, with their people battered after BFA - it seems that most of their efforts are to return to Kalimdor. I mean, if Blizzard do a Kalimdor/EK revamp, it's possible that a new temple, combining both the classic Temples of Elune, like the Darnassus one and the Temples that we see around the Broken Isles and Zin-Azshari, are made into one.
I do favor creating a huge Temple over the Well of Eternity, but having glass-like marble stone to where Tyrande and Malfurion stand and the second Well of Eternity, becomes a giant Moonwell.

I mean, not even the Nightborne are all that interested in the Tomb of Sargeras.

io have never felt all things elven should be dominated along faction lines. Druidism was the first thing to not be dominated by faction lines, nor are the Illidari, I think with the Nightborne priestesses, the order of Elune with regards to this temple will not be faction dominated either.

I don't think the Nightborne and broken isle elves are canonically as polarised as players assume... but blizzard hasn't really delved much into it. The only insight - the Thalyssra/Lor'themar love thing that returns to Suramar has nothing about faction involved in in it,.

I expect the Cathedral to be restored by an army of Elune Priests with kaldorei and Shal'dorei priests alike. Remember it is the sacred duty of the priesthood to defend Elune's lands and temples.

This one has now had the corruption removed, and there are lots of Priests of Elune in both Val'Sharah and Suramar that would take to the work.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

But it does have to be equal, in terms of player engagement.

You can't say to people who play Blood Elf Demon Hunters that they don't get content because they're not a Night Elf. The class is shared between just two races. The fact that the Silvermoon Elves shunned the Demon Hunters as "freaks" is enough of an interesting reason to also push for Illidari/Silvermoon Blood Elf racial content.

I mean, Kayn Sunfury is the canon Demon Hunter who is leading the charge on Azsuna. I mean, look at his surname...Sunfury...Sunfury Blood Elves under Kael'tas, plus the Sunfury Spire. Unlikely to be named after Kayn, but it's still very interesting and doesn't hinder the Night Elf Demon Hunters in any way.

For a class that's shared between just two races, it's very easy for both Sin'dorei and Kaldorei to get equal amounts of story developments, in terms of this race/class combo.

Now regarding the Cathedral - Nightborne Priests, by lore standards, are not your average Priests where faith is the driving factor. Indeed, Nightborne Priests seem to be Chronomancers, which are an extension to the Mage class, but they use time-magic to reverse wounds, rather than heal. This is extremely different and separates the Nightborne from all other Priest races. I reckon Blizzard should push this forward, because it truly is a different angle to take the Priest class.

With this in mind, it likely stands to reason why the Shal'dorei haven't done anything with the Tomb. I mean, in the Darion story before Shadowlands, it was noted that the fel-green lights had all but gone out around the Tomb, but that was it. The Nightborne have all but remained in their inner city of Suramar and around the Nighthold. Again, this is why I say - Nightborne interest in the Tomb doesn't seem to be all that high.

[Mace]

Fair enough.

Although really, Illysanna goes rogue after Kur'thalos dies, and reappears in the Vault of the Wardens as the War of the Ancient dies having followed Illidan's footsteps and somehow became a full fledged demon within Demon Hunter.

Which is strange, given the length Illidari go to get their power and to awake the Demon Within. But whatever, it's in the game. Still, Illysanna had even less exposure to the overall Kaldorei culture than Illidan given that nobody knew of her existance previous to her appearance in Blackrook Hold.

Retcon? recast? or missing information...? It's not the first and certainly won't be the last we heard.

the way the story is told in WotA and WC3, it felt like Illidan was the only demon hunter, and more only appeared in TBC, but TBC is when i think it was recast, because Altruis is already a well seasoned demon hunter when we meet him, and all the blood elf ones are juniors and trainees at the black temple with the vast majority of the instructors being night elven.. we actually wipe out most of the blood elven ones in the quest - then Illidan the novel shows us other demon hunters that came to it well before the events of WC3.

I guess it is possible there were others, but the language of WotA and what we saw in wc3, kind a makes it odd that there weren't others, otherwise you would have shown them right?

But then, that's a video game for you, it doesn't show everything, and that vagueness is often used to re-insert things later on .. especially when they flesh out lore.

I'm alright with it sometimes, but sometimes I'm just like wtf? The worse is when they change things for the worse and ruin a good thing.

I'm not nitpicking on your dialogue, and please do not suggest that, but the adherence of Illidari and Kaldorei and the reunion of Night elven DHs to their kin is a return to their faction. The DH hero is not involved with the NE things for anything other than gameplay reasons. And following to your statement and once more: the Illidari are not a NE led and based group. Their forefather and leader is one, but it has no roots in NE culture, does not identify as a NE group, its strokes are not NE.

And for all we know and to spice the discussion up, the roots of DH practice could very well be in the Zandalari daemoniacs, which possibly predate the entire NE civilization. The Fel as a tool has been abandoned for quite some time from the empire, but we know it was spread to a point in the past.

Fair enough, but this is the reason I want to see more and see how they will do it.

I would have loved some kaldorei reunion and exploration of that as I wrote to Username above, I wouldn't necessarily feel the Illidari need to become a Darnassian or Kaldorei entity anymore than the druids should be. In fact I want Elunism to extend beyond the kaldorei, but I know some fans really want it exclusively kaldorei.

Anyway the Illidari are established as their own faction, that is how it should be.

The roots of demon hunter are night elven not because it is culturally night elven because it is Illidan adapting the fel knowledge of Sargeras to use as a weapon, using kaldorei education and techniques that form his understanding of magic. it is very similar to how druidism is formed by Malfurion adapting the teachings of Cenarius and utilising them, the differences is the kaldorei culturally accepted Cenarius' teachings hence the nature magic support, and they don't culturally support Sargeras' fel knowledge, though until TBC the only demon hunters that did were night elven

In that vein it is or rather was entirely night elven until those events. However you do have point, whereas druidism incorporated the arcane affinity and cultural aspects basing itself on the balance between nature and arcane, also accepting some aspects from Elunism - seeing balance druids do have a spell that involves Elune's power.. Demon hunters on the other hand aren't employing nay of that.

But that's fine, arcane and nature don't belong to night elves but yet we associate druidism and arcane power with them, when truthfully the same should and can be said of another night elf adapting fel power for use by other night elves.

Zandalari
As for the Zandalari connection, Zandalari had evidence of arcane, nature and even void/shadow usage before the night elves came to be, but there are a lot of magics they had access to and could employ but never developed them to the level and specialisation the elves did. With arcane the night elves specialised and created magecraft, with nature they specialised and created druidism, with fel, they didn't create warlocks (Eredar did), but they created demon hunters - the trolls didn't do any of that with the rudimentary arcane, nature, shadow, death etc knowledge, they had a priest orientated society entirely calling upon Loa to lend them or bestow powers on them rather than investigate the very powers themselves like the elves did - some of those abilities the trolls used, utilised a measure of arcane or nature, holy or death magic, but no speciality - it is possible shamanism is one of the classes they first invented, and likely they were the first priests we know of on Azeroth, not the night elves.

Demoniacs
Demoniacs would be newer than demon hunters, .. demons don't come to Azeroth before the night elves call them, Illidan is already a demon hunter by then. And we have no evidence of demoniacs before the Zandalari we meet in MoP, it is very likely they are a post WC3 phenomena, because all the demons were expelled from Azeroth with the Well's implosion, save for the night elves who'd been turned to satyr. And demons only start returning with the humans over using arcane magic without the knowledge of their elven teachers nearly 10,000 years later, and it is this that leads up to the events of Wc3 where there is a full scale invasion and while they are defeated, there are still quite a few around in various places.

Furthermore Zandalari aren't commonly known for being warlocks at all, so the demoniacs must have been a specific new thing, definitely not one linked to the demon hunters.

Anyway, it's blizzard that write the lore. I mean so what if the night elves are the originators of the druid, mage and demon hunter class? That's just how the lore puts it. (someone's got have invented a thing and be the best at it - why not night elves for some things right?) - other races originate other classes too.. trolls probably spawned the hunter, shaman and priest - I don't think anyone can claim to have bene the originator of a warrior class, but the rogue class we may have to divide by spec and attribute to different classes, night elves probably are the originators of the subtlety spec, trolls the assassination spec, but outlaw? That's probably a part of every race.. who knows.

Humans were definitely the first paladins, and I think the lore puts them as the first priests of the holy light on Azeroth anyway. Draenei holy light is a different vein, whereas Thalassian version is also a slightly different vein, or at least they approach the same thing differently. one worshipfully, one pragmatically and one via the Naaru.



- - - Updated - - -

But it does have to be equal, in terms of player engagement.

.

Why? You may like it to be equal, I may be fine with it being equal, but it doesn't need to be even for player engagement.

Despite their illustrious arcane acumen, do we see focus on mages often going to the Shen'dralar, moonguard, Nightborne or Farondis? Or even high elves, void elves, blood elves and especially Draenei who are reportedly very talented at it too.

No, it's almost largely on humans, and canonically, elves, especially night elven kind are far more prolific.. Druidism is another example, while Tauren druids are as good as night elven ones, but we see the focus of the class is more towards the race the lore follows the story of it.

Night elves may have started and excelled the greatest at magecraft, as the Highborne and Nightborne show, but it is humans and the Dalarna wizards that get the focus, not even the Blue Dragonflight, it is anything but equal.

[Tanaria]

Why? You may like it to be equal, I may be fine with it being equal, but it doesn't need to be even for player engagement.

Despite their lilustrious arcane acumen, do we see focus on mages often going to the shen'dralar, moonguard, Nightborne or Farondis? Or even high elves, void elves, blood elves and especially Draenei who are reportedly very talented at it too.

No, it's almost largely on humans, and canonically, elves, especially night elven kind are far more prolific.. Druidism is another exmaple, while Tauren druids are as good as night elven ones, but we see the focus of the class is more towards the raec the lore follows the story of it.

Night elves may have started and excelled the greatest at magecraft, as the highborne and Nightborne show, but iti s humans and the Dalarna wizards that get the focus, not even the GBlue Dragonflight, it is anythign but equal.

Because we're talking about giving race and classes more identity.

You can't just strip players because they rolled a Blood Elf Demon Hunter of things.

I mean, so what if Humans get most Mage attention - that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about players who choose their races, getting racial lore and classes that truly stand out for that race. The Blood Elves, for example have their Blood Knights, Magisters and Farstriders. That won't deter people from playing a Human or draenei Mage, but the idea is that your playing a Mage of Quel'Thalas.

Likewise, playing a Demon Hunter - you can either go with the Night Elves and go to Kalimdor and have fun there or you go to Quel'Thalas with your Blood Elf and have fun there.

[Mace]

Because we're talking about giving race and classes more identity.

You can't just strip players because they rolled a Blood Elf Demon Hunter of things.

I mean, so what if Humans get most Mage attention - that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about players who choose their races, getting racial lore and classes that truly stand out for that race. The Blood Elves, for example have their Blood Knights, Magisters and Farstriders. That won't deter people from playing a Human or draenei Mage, but the idea is that your playing a Mage of Quel'Thalas.

You are presuming stripping is happening.

No stripping is happening. saying I would like to see more of the Illidari involved with the night elves especially after the revelations of Legion is not saying i want to strip the blood elves away or want them removed.

When it comes to demon hunters my interest is more centred to night elves where this class has played a key role in all their stories -- war of the ancients, Wc3, TBC, Cata, Legion - they've been there.

But why do you think I am trying to strip players? I don't get the logic there. I have even said to the contrary, did you not see what I wrote? Or just not believing?

[Tanaria]

You are presuming stripping is happening.

No stripping is happening. saying I would liek to see more of the Illidari invovled with the night elves especially after the revelations of Legion is not saying i want to strip the blood elves away or want them reomved.

When it comes to demon hutners my interest is more centred to night elves where this class has plaeyd a key role in all their stories -- war of the ancients, Wc3, TBc, Cata, Legion - they've been there.

But why do you think I am trying to strip players? I don't get the logic there. I have even said to the contrary, did you not see what I wrote? Or just not believing?

I'm talking about player content in terms of the race/class combo story.

It's easy to create an equal story for Sin'dorei Demon Hunters, without taking anything away from the Night Elves. Remember, the Illidari as a collective is made up of 5 races, 2 of which are the Demon Hunter army.

Blood Elf Demon Hunters and Blood Elf Warlock players could have a intertwined story.

And I did see what you wrote - something about Fel Elves of Outland...

[Mace]

Now regarding the Cathedral - Nightborne Priests, by lore standards, are not your average Priests where faith is the driving factor. Indeed, Nightborne Priests seem to be Chronomancers, which are an extension to the Mage class, but they use time-magic to reverse wounds, rather than heal. This is extremely different and separates the Nightborne from all other Priest races. I reckon Blizzard should push this forward, because it truly is a different angle to take the Priest class.

With this in mind, it likely stands to reason why the Shal'dorei haven't done anything with the Tomb. I mean, in the Darion story before Shadowlands, it was noted that the fel-green lights had all but gone out around the Tomb, but that was it. The Nightborne have all but remained in their inner city of Suramar and around the Nighthold. Again, this is why I say - Nightborne interest in the Tomb doesn't seem to be all that high.

Technically they haven't explained what Nightborne priests are exactly.. I think until otherwise stated, it's safe to assume they are Priestesses of Elune, giving their history, the significance of Suramar, the allusions to the priesthood in the quests, the fond memories, the return of the Priestess refugees from Val'Sharah who join up with Thalyssra, the Nightborne female flirt admiring Tyrande...

Just because a priest uses arcane magic like starfall, or chronomancy magic doesn't' mean the priesthood is necessarily revolved around time worship or arcane worship without any evidence or account that supports. Some remark that the arcane is considered sacred to night elves because it is through this the connection to Elune is made and Elune is associated with it, having believed to have dwelt within the well etc etc - the sentinels still revere the waters as sacred.. but that is established lore.


While I haven't seen any Nightborne priests cast chronomancy magic (I'm not saying they can't - just that you help me understand where you made this connection) or are you just presenting it as a possibility they could use? Bear in mind to be a priest, it has to be based on faith and spirituality, if it's just magical manipulation then that's more mage and not actually a priest, kinda like a surgeon or doctor is a scientist not a priest healing you with the power and name of Jesus Christ by a word of faith or power.

Some say gnome priests are surgeons/doctors - in Warcraft triage works, so there is an element of that, but then priests access magic, so is it just because we don't have a surgeon class skin for gnome priests?

Anyway, the Cathedral won't be the "Shal'dorei's" or any dorei's do deal with, it would be the order of Elune - now the presumption is that members of the Kaldorei, Shal'dorei and Gilnean worgen races are followers of this order so they'll be involved with it.

As for the Cathedral, we don't know what, if anything has been done by anyone, we don't even know how they are getting along, we know this is the Cathedral of Eternal Night, Elune's most holy temple, we know priests of Elune have been involved with the expedition we made there, whether these have Nightborne involved or not, who knows. Would be nice if they did. But it remains to be seen.

[arandomuser]

Madeleine Roux
--- snip ---
Don't u love being born cousin to someone who can get u jobs? remember bust ur ass studying and get degree so u can fuck urself with it since working now need relatives not actual study and hard work

yes i remember when during a sylvanas fight she gave us a critical theory lesson and answerring a pop quiz on feminism was a mechanic...her politics clearly has no influence on her work, i got news for you every dev on the team is left leaning, i guess its time for you to quit and play your japanese ethnostate developer game weebfantasy 14, and ive got news for you. go play something else..good advice in this situation

[Tanaria]

As for the Cathedral, we don't know what, if anythign has been done by anyone, we don't even know how they are getting along, we know this is the Cathedral of Eternal Night, Elune's most holy temple, we know priests of Elune have been inovlved with the expedition we made there, whether these have nightborne inovlved or not, who nows. Would be nice if they did. But it remains to be seen.

Well, the most recent information relating to that whole place is that the fel-green lights have gone out, but nothing more.

So Demons aren't spawning from it, Nightborne aren't using it. At the current time, it's a dormant location.

Technically they haven't explained what nightborne priests are exactly.. I tihnk until otherwise stated, it's safe to assume they are Priestesses of Elune, giving their history, the significance of Suramr, the allusions to the priesthood in the quests, the fond memories, the return of the Priestess rfugees from Val'shaarh who join up with Thalyssra, the nightborne fmele flirt admiring Tyrande...

Just because a priest uses arcane magic like starfall, or chronomancy magic doens't' mean the priesthood is necessarily revolved around time worship or arcane worship without any evidence or account that supports. Some remark that the arcane is considered sacred to night elves because it is through this the connection to Elune is made and Elune is assocaited with it, having believed to have dwelt within the well etc etc - the sentinels still revere the waters as sacred.. but that is established lore.

Actually, we do:
Unlike the night elves, the shal'dorei do not appear to worship Elune. They, instead, revere the stars themselves, without naming a specific divinity. Nightborne priests seem to call to the stars to channel their magic.[8] For healing, the nightborne use chronomancy to rewind time, reversing the wounds rather than healing them in the traditional manner.[9]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Pri...tborne_priests

It's a different angle to take for Priests, as a whole, but if it makes the Nightborne stand out from the rest, I'm all for it.

While I haven't seen any nightborne priests cast chronomancy magic (I'm not saying they can't - just that you help me understand where you made this connection) or are you just presenting it as a possiblity they could use? Bear in mind to be a priest, it has to be based on faith and spiritiuality, if it's just magical manipulation then that's more mage and not actually a priest, kinda like a surgeon or doctor is a scientist not a piresthealing you with the power and name of Jesus Christ by a word of faith or power.

Not all Priests require "faith" or are "faith-driven." Case-in-point, Ren'dorei and Forsaken and now, Shal'dorei.

Anyway, the Cathedral won't be the "shal'dorei's" or any dorei's do deal with, it would be the order of Elune - now the preusmption is that members of the Kaldorei, shal'dorei and gilnean worgen races are followeres of this order so they'll be involved with it.

But we don't know, because even after the Fourth War, the Temple is dormant.

Night Elves and Worgen have gone back to Kalimdor and live around Nordrassil and northern Kalimdor.
Nightborne are still in Suramar.

[username993720]

Shen'drlaar are not likely at all to pick up the fel in this society, nor would htey want to, anymore than the Farondis highborne or druids and priests

I don't see a reason why Shen'dralar not, and Nightborne yes.

that's not to say some lone rebel nightelf might not, but there is a context to all of these thigns. Nighte lves, including illidan hunted power for s in gular purpose of eradicating the demons, not out of megolomania or love of demons or power to rule and control poeple, which is the motivation of your standard warcraft warlock.

Have you missed the picture i posted?
Illidan was a power hungry sorcerer in his youth, and it continued in his Demon Hunter arts. Yes, he did so to kill the Dreadlord in Felwood, but he also liked the power of it.

You can provide escapism and still tackle matters aside from the very consensual topics of "war bad" "together strong" "be excellent to each other". You can address relatable topics, in your universe. It just has to be made well. But we can agree that for now, WoW isn't good at either the consensual shit, the modern shit or the escapism.

Why would they need more ? First generations DK are a thing of the past, there's one mention of different DK being possible is from an old Metzen interview. You don't have any obligation to provide a shit ton of flavor text or quests in order to illustrate a variety of class variations. You can show a few examples here and there. Only roleplayers care about playing a warrior that was not trained by the dude from his noob zone anyway and we can grasp any piece of information to make that happen.

Sure it was nice to have a little context for the introduction of certain race-class combinations, like the human/UD hunters, the priests/paladin tauren. But some others like BE warrior or Hunter gnomes don't need that kind of explanation.

Also you know what, class-race restrictions are what deprived us of Warlock Zandalari and Warlock/Paladin KT. For the sake of not having all classes available to a few races, they cut some combinations, while shoe-horning druids to both of them, again for the sake of I dunno, faction equity or something.

I care for lore. Otherwise, there's no uniqueness to the various race/class combinations. "A Tauren can be a Paladin? wtf? Oh... they're actually followers of the sun". "Gnomes can be priests? Oh, they're actually medics...". These kind of things are important to explain the reason for the various class/race combinations. Not just a mere "Here you go. You can be that class now for no reason at all".

Blood elf Warrior are most likely Spellbreakers, given their city guards. Gnome Hunters are a thing due to their heavy use of technology, like Goblins.

Zandalari Warlocks were deprived because:
"In Mists of Pandaria, demoniacs were one of the only professions not to appear among the Zandalari, contrary to haruspices and others, and in Battle for Azeroth, Zandalari have a much more holy aspect to them. Following the announcement of the Zandalari allied race, Blizzard stated that Zandalari have no connection to fel magic and therefore cannot play as warlocks. So it is likely that Zandalari abandoned this practice a long time ago."

Kul Tirans were retconned to believe in the sea, rather than the Holy Light. But, Paladins could be added due to them having Knights and Priests of the Holy Light. As for Warlock, i don't see a reason why they would have them.

Druids were given to the Zandalari because of their Loa worship, which are Wild Gods, just like the Darkspears have. Kul Tirans were taught Druidism by the Drust.

At least they give them reasons, instead of "just because".

[DatToffer]

I care for lore. Otherwise, there's no uniqueness to the various race/class combinations. "A Tauren can be a Paladin? wtf? Oh... they're actually followers of the sun". "Gnomes can be priests? Oh, they're actually medics...". These kind of things are important to explain the reason for the various class/race combinations. Not just a mere "Here you go. You can be that class now for no reason at all".

Yes. They are important. But they also can just be a footnote. One flavor text of a class master. You really don't need much.

Blood elf Warrior are most likely Spellbreakers, given their city guards. Gnome Hunters are a thing due to their heavy use of technology, like Goblins.

And they had close to no explanation, because the thing fit pretty naturally. You don't need to explain everything. You wouldn't need to explain druid dwarves or warlock KT and Zandalari. Since shaman goblins exist, you probably don't even need to explain any other shaman race.

You'd need to give at least some context for the most wacky combinations. Why Orc Druids ? Gnome Druids ?? Mechagnome Druids ??? Draenei Warlocks ?? Tauren Rogues ?? But as long as they don't raise eyebrows, it's fine by me.

Zandalari Warlocks were deprived because:
"In Mists of Pandaria, demoniacs were one of the only professions not to appear among the Zandalari, contrary to haruspices and others, and in Battle for Azeroth, Zandalari have a much more holy aspect to them. Following the announcement of the Zandalari allied race, Blizzard stated that Zandalari have no connection to fel magic and therefore cannot play as warlocks. So it is likely that Zandalari abandoned this practice a long time ago."

Kul Tirans were retconned to believe in the sea, rather than the Holy Light. But, Paladins could be added due to them having Knights and Priests of the Holy Light. As for Warlock, i don't see a reason why they would have them.

Druids were given to the Zandalari because of their Loa worship, which are Wild Gods, just like the Darkspears have. Kul Tirans were taught Druidism by the Drust.

At least they give them reasons, instead of "just because".

I remember the Zandalari and KT class presentation being quite a mess. Some really funky shit like KT Mage not being present and Zandalari warlock being a thing (which made it the first race to get all classes).

So any piece of lore who appeared in an interview regarding these sudden changes is just a band-aid to a not well-thought design. Which leads me to think that you can make anyshit happen, as long as you can utter some wild explanation at some point. Even if it's not ingame. Even if it's too late. Even if it's just one line in an interview.

[Mace]

Well, as far as the Blood Elves go - they shunned the Demon Hunters as "freaks" during Legion, as stated by the Demon Hunter in the Vault of the Wardens.

I think their is a lot of interest to go off with this, rather than just putting the Blood Elf Demon Hunters on Outland and building some odd connection to the demonic Felblood Elves.

Is that all you think I wanted to do with Belf demon hunters? Why? In the same sentence I told you they'd also be patrolling regions and zones.. Outland was an area where they could do things a bit independent of the night elf Illidari for a more blood elf centred story especially if it involved the Fel elves - and possibly recruiting them or destroying them or something.

But it's one of many areas - the reason it is selected is because of the demonic presence in outland still not dealt with.

Anyway, there are many areas they could do with belves and illidari, including invent some new ones. but they moved blood elves away from the Illidari in TBC - taking them to the horde and to the burning legion eventually betraying Illidan. When they return in Cata and Legion, the focus seems more heavily night elf centric

[Tanaria]

Is that all you think I wanted to do with Belf demon hunters? Why? I n the same sentence I told you they'd also be patrolling regions and zones.. Outland was an area where they coudl do things a bit indepenednet of the night elf Illidari for a more blood elf centred sotry espeically if it inovlved the FEl elves - and possibly recruiting them or destroying them or something.

But it's one of many areas - the reason it is selected is because of the demonic presence in outland still not dealt with.

Anyway, there are many areas they could do with belves and illidari, including invent some new ones. but they moved blodo leves away from the Illidari in TBC - taking htem to the horde adn to the burning legion eventually betraying Illidan. When they return in Cata and Legion, the focus seems more heavily night elf centric

They can be independent...in Quel'Thalas...their homeland...just like the night elf ones going to their old homeland of northern kalimdor..?

But they didn't move the Blood Elves away from the Illidari in TBC. The Sunfury Blood Elves at Karabor and the Eclipsion Blood Elves were all fanatically loyal to Illidan and the Illidari. We saw Elite Blood Elves in the Black Temple, that made up the defense of the Black Temple and the Illidari Council - again, a Council made up of Blood Elves.

And their is no such thing as the "fel elves" as one standard race. Fel Elves could be Satyr, Felblood Elves, Felborne Elves, Night Elf Felsworn Demon Hunters, Blood Elf Felsworn Demon Hunters.

And going back to the purpose of this thread, the general vibe is racial focus and bringing classes along with it. Blood Elf Demon Hunters, just like their Night Elf counterparts, should have story involving their homeland of Quel'Thalas. Outland was never their home and the only place we saw Felblood Elves was in Hellfire at Throne of Kil'jaedon, but again - they were destroyed by the Shattered Sun Offensive.

All I'm saying is focus doesn't need to and shouldn't be tilted one way. This is an instance where Blood Elf Demon Hunter players can get their story and Night Elf Demon Hunter players can get their story, but both coming back to Mardum. If we were talking about the Mage class or the Warlock class, then yes - we would have a lot more stories to tell, across a lot of different races...not all of them making sense. In this instance - we've just got 2 races that can be a Demon Hunter. It's easy for both to be given an equal length of story.

Don't worry - you will get your night elf focus, if you play a night elf demon hunter. It just won't come at the expense of blood elf demon hunter players being given a reduced story, which doesn't really suit them (Outland, Fel Elves (whatever they are) etc.)

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Moments when the Alliance and the Horde lose other than the Broken Shore or when the boss kill the players or force them to flee like Arthas did in WOTLK.

[username993720]

Yes. They are important. But they also can just be a footnote. One flavor text of a class master. You really don't need much.

So can the entire lore. But, we wouldn't want that, would we?

And they had close to no explanation, because the thing fit pretty naturally. You don't need to explain everything. You wouldn't need to explain druid dwarves or warlock KT and Zandalari. Since shaman goblins exist, you probably don't even need to explain any other shaman race.

You'd need to give at least some context for the most wacky combinations. Why Orc Druids ? Gnome Druids ?? Mechagnome Druids ??? Draenei Warlocks ?? Tauren Rogues ?? But as long as they don't raise eyebrows, it's fine by me.

"Long at the forefront of cutting-edge technology in Azeroth, the inventive gnomes are finally ready to break out the big guns. Their propensity for things that go "bang" and knack for high-tech weapons like rocket launchers, high-powered rifles, and death rays make them perfect candidates for hunting down prey."

"Some blood elves become warriors — especially those seeking to be spell breakers. In the aftermath of the Third War, Kael'thas took a group of the strongest blood elf warriors and spellcasters and joined the Alliance against the Scourge (most of these later joined him in Outland). Although non-playable blood elf warriors do exist, most are in service of Illidan (or at least Kael'thas). There is also a group of blood elf and draenei warriors who form part of the Shattered Sun Offensive, the Shattered Sun Warriors."

The rest is for players to speculate.

Dwarven Druids would be Wildhammers, due to their relations to Gryphons and the wilds.

A Kul Tiran Warlock would probably be of the Heartsbane coven, as they are the closest thing to a Warlock they have (Warlock is the male counterpart of a Witch).

A Zandalari Warlock would be a Demoniac, a spellcaster who absorbs the soul of a demon.

Goblin Shamans make deals with the Elements. a totally different approach from other Shamans.

Orc Druids would come from their animalistic natures. In the RPG, they have the primalist class, a savage archetype who slowly turns into an animal.

The chances for Mechagnome Druids are slim.

Draenei Warlocks would probably come from the demonic Eredar.

Tauren Rogues would be of the Grimtoten tribe.

I remember the Zandalari and KT class presentation being quite a mess. Some really funky shit like KT Mage not being present and Zandalari warlock being a thing (which made it the first race to get all classes).

So any piece of lore who appeared in an interview regarding these sudden changes is just a band-aid to a not well-thought design. Which leads me to think that you can make anyshit happen, as long as you can utter some wild explanation at some point. Even if it's not ingame. Even if it's too late. Even if it's just one line in an interview.

They can.
Wouldn't consider it good, though.

Moments when the Alliance and the Horde lose other than the Broken Shore or when the boss kill the players or force them to flee like Arthas did in WOTLK.

Time to lose sometimes. There are no risks in knowing you will win every single time.

[sighy]

True, but I was just thinking of continuing that story between the Sentinels and the San'layn. Add the Shen'dralar Highborne into this story and you've got an interesting story. You've got Shandris and Mordent, who are begrudgingly working together and you've got a Blood Princess, causing trouble in the south of Darkshore. Maybe some Blood Crystals which the Shen'dralar teleport back to Eldre'Thalas, so they can study them?

Of course, San'layn/Sin'dorei/Dark Ranger is also something that could be really cool.

It'd make for a very nice Forsaken and Blood Elf crossover. Could say that the remaining ones in Northrend were freed, when CoD got shattered and now found themselves looking for a place in the world, with the Forsaken being an obvious choice given their history of being largely ex-scourge and broadly acception of the shady dubious types. Always was a shame that the more diverse aspects of the Forsaken were generally sidelined, in favor of generic ex human model number 3. Especially now that Undercity and large portions of Tirisfall have been wrecked. So having a focus around Quel'thalas and Plaguelands could be nice. Night Elves have been snooping around Quel'thalas even back in TBC so could include Sentinels that way. Or have another side of the story in Kalimdor.

[Soon-TM]

I'd love to fight some angry masons again.
Or maybe some religious zealots with a hatred for all things spooky and scary.
Maybe some gangs in Stormwind's Old Town.
I'd love to help some nobles backstab and doublecross eachother.
I'd love to help a farmer defend his lands from kobolds and gnolls.
I'd love to fight witches, vampires and werewolves.
A necromancer could be fun.

Really I'm down for anything as long as it's A: simple, local and down to earth and B: well characterized

I mean come on, in hindsight right, how good was the Onyxia arc? It was excellent, and absolutely perfect for WoW. There's a dragon, who's a a person, and she's enchanted the king and seized the throne for herself, uncover her plot and get rid of her.

Fully agree. I really want to see more "world" in the, you know, World of Warcraft, and less, much less Marvel/anime-esque BS. Having just three or four characters shoved down your throat during an entire expansion or, even worse, multiple expansions is just tiresome. It would be annoying enough even if that small handful of characters was well described and coherently written, but alas... This is Danuser & co. we're dealing with.

[username993720]

Fully agree. I really want to see more "world" in the, you know, World of Warcraft, and less, much less Marvel/anime-esque BS. Having just three or four characters shoved down your throat during an entire expansion or, even worse, multiple expansions is just tiresome. It would be annoying enough even if that small handful of characters was well described and coherently written, but alas... This is Danuser & co. we're dealing with.

This should be turned into a meme with the heads of Hermione, Ron and Harry being replaced with those of Thrall, Jaina, Anduin and Baine (extra head ).