Too much friction to enjoy the game

[Tronski]

Is it just me who feels restricted in my ability to play Shadowlands the way I want and therefore unable to fully enjoy the game? Areas of friction limiting my freedom and enjoyment include:

1) Legendaries:
Blizzard appears to have put a significant amount of effort into creating all the different legendary memories (approximately 20 per class) and each can be crafted into 11 different slots and each slot can be upgraded by 6 item level tiers. To craft the legendaries requires a significant amount of gold or materials for the base item, x40 Korthite crystals which I receive around 2 per day (20days to farm), 1550 Soul ash, and 1650 Soul Cinders (4 weeks of torghast). What is the purpose of this design? How does Blizzard intend for the player to interact with this complex and restrictive process? I would enjoy trying them all myself but it appears that the only option is to carefully pick 1 or 2 to invest in and hope it remains a competitive choice. Why did they make so many options then restrict the player's ability to try them out?

2) Covenants:
I've spent around 4 months collecting and leveling max command table companions, 2 months collecting conduits, 3 months on the sanctum upgrades. Why do players need to forfeit this and start over in a new covenant to try another class-covenant combination and experience the rest of the shadowlands story? What is the intent of this restriction?

3) Conduit Energy: Why does this exist?

I understand some amount of friction to make game decisions seem meaningful but the amount of friction is too high that I feel controlled by the game. I make a decision then I'm stuck unless I'm willing to invest a tremendous amount of time grinding to catch up. It's opressive.

The problem is never the systems themselves, it's that Blizzard doesn't respect your time whatsoever and gate these system behind extreme grinds to extend your playtime. Since Legion (first Activision expansion, go figure) they have outdone themselves on these grinds.

[DechCJC]

Everything is the way it is for the sake of metrics. It’s designed to be effective at keeping you playing, not enjoying your play time.

[Johnjohn]

Not only that, but as a casual player unless I really dedicate a lot of time to these grinds I don't even finish them before they reset lol. I barely even get to see the reward anymore. Its insane to me that patches are now introducing new systems instead of expansions.

Its endless and tedious.

[Biomega]

and on fights where burst is not desirable they are weaker, and its due to nature of fights, not due to covenant balance...

That's just not true. There is no situation of "burst is not desirable" - if burst isn't needed, it simply factors into overall damage; where, as I've shown earlier, they STILL do better by a significant margin. This isn't a dichotomy of burst is good vs. burst is bad, that is a completely inaccurate representation.

[Tic Tacs]

OP, they've been doing everything you've described for the past 2+ expansions now. Release the game, everything is heavily restricted - time gated/hard to acquire, slowly ease down the restrictions and by the end of the expansion you have everything.

They are doing it to keep people playing/subbed, I have no other explanation since playerbase questioned that for many years now, with Shadowlands these systems are more obvious now especially with renown.

[Hollycakes]

Is it just me who feels restricted in my ability to play Shadowlands the way I want and therefore unable to fully enjoy the game? Areas of friction limiting my freedom and enjoyment include:

1) Legendaries:
Blizzard appears to have put a significant amount of effort into creating all the different legendary memories (approximately 20 per class) and each can be crafted into 11 different slots and each slot can be upgraded by 6 item level tiers. To craft the legendaries requires a significant amount of gold or materials for the base item, x40 Korthite crystals which I receive around 2 per day (20days to farm), 1550 Soul ash, and 1650 Soul Cinders (4 weeks of torghast). What is the purpose of this design? How does Blizzard intend for the player to interact with this complex and restrictive process? I would enjoy trying them all myself but it appears that the only option is to carefully pick 1 or 2 to invest in and hope it remains a competitive choice. Why did they make so many options then restrict the player's ability to try them out?

2) Covenants:
I've spent around 4 months collecting and leveling max command table companions, 2 months collecting conduits, 3 months on the sanctum upgrades. Why do players need to forfeit this and start over in a new covenant to try another class-covenant combination and experience the rest of the shadowlands story? What is the intent of this restriction?

3) Conduit Energy: Why does this exist?

I understand some amount of friction to make game decisions seem meaningful but the amount of friction is too high that I feel controlled by the game. I make a decision then I'm stuck unless I'm willing to invest a tremendous amount of time grinding to catch up. It's opressive.

Sorry this is off topic and I do agree with what you've said but is no one going to mention the only 9 posts in 10 years thing? lol
Well done.
It's actually 9 in 11 so less than 1 a year lel. Love it <3

[burnout180]

I read all of the responses and as expected with a diverse community, the responses vary in focus. Some say don't play like this and argue how others are wrong and need to change themselves. The players are the problem is a concerning outlook. This game was once inclusive of many different players, with different goals, likes, and dislikes. This is reflected in the game's global reception. Therefore it is possible for us to all play side by side in our own ways and not feel like the game is fighting against that. I could get lost in the details of specific components of the game but these two quotes target the root of the issues.

OP, they've been doing everything you've described for the past 2+ expansions now. Release the game, everything is heavily restricted - time gated/hard to acquire, slowly ease down the restrictions and by the end of the expansion you have everything.

They are doing it to keep people playing/subbed, I have no other explanation since playerbase questioned that for many years now, with Shadowlands these systems are more obvious now especially with renown.

Everything is the way it is for the sake of metrics. It’s designed to be effective at keeping you playing, not enjoying your play time.

The dominant culture at Blizzard has been replaced and is reflected in the content. The game is driven by financial performance indicators and the players/consumers are being manipulated to improve these financial metrics. The culture that committed to the goals inscribed in the Orc statue compass outside Blizzards headquarters is lost:
1) Gameplay First
2) Every Voice Matters
3) Lead Responsibly
4) Commit To Quality
5) Learn & Grow
6) Embrace Your Inner Geek
7) Play Nice, Play Fair
8) Think Globally

[rhorle]

The dominant culture at Blizzard has been replaced and is reflected in the content. The game is driven by financial performance indicators and the players/consumers are being manipulated to improve these financial metrics. The culture that committed to the goals inscribed in the Orc statue compass outside Blizzards headquarters is lost:

It hasn't been lost. It hasn't changed. Blizzard was always focused on financial performance and convincing people to give them more money. The difference is you, and others, no longer romanticize them so you see things differently.

[burnout180]

Sorry this is off topic and I do agree with what you've said but is no one going to mention the only 9 posts in 10 years thing? lol
Well done.
It's actually 9 in 11 so less than 1 a year lel. Love it <3

I've been an active user the whole time. I just prefer to read.

- - - Updated - - -

It hasn't been lost. It hasn't changed. Blizzard was always focused on financial performance and convincing people to give them more money. The difference is you, and others, no longer romanticize them so you see things differently.

Definitely I have changed but that doesn't mean Blizzard hasn't too in its 30 years of existence. Of course, they cared about financials, we all do it's how we interface with our society's economy. But we also have values and boundaries in the pursuit of financials.

[rhorle]

Definitely I have changed but that doesn't mean Blizzard hasn't too in its 30 years of existence. Of course, they cared about financials, we all do it's how we interface with our society's economy. But we also have values and boundaries in the pursuit of financials.

What values changed for Blizzard though? They always tried to monetize their products. Merchandise, Collector's editions, TCG loot cards, etc. Blizzard hasn't changed as much as you and others want to claim. It is just that now that people are no longer satisfied with the product they look for reasons and blame the easy target of "Blizzard has changed". Usually it is blamed on Activision even though Vivendi are the ones that merged their games division with Activision in the first place. Or that as long as the studio has been called Blizzard they have had a parent company.

Look at Diablo North and how it was shut down and the few kept merged into the main Blizzard. It has always been about financial performance and making money. The methods to do it over the years have changed as the industry has. It is also silly to claim they want money at all costs since their games haven't been heavily monetized. They could make a ton of money selling more Overwatch skins as the single charity skin for OW earned more then all the charity pets for WoW.

[burnout180]

What values changed for Blizzard though? They always tried to monetize their products. Merchandise, Collector's editions, TCG loot cards, etc. Blizzard hasn't changed as much as you and others want to claim. It is just that now that people are no longer satisfied with the product they look for reasons and blame the easy target of "Blizzard has changed". Usually it is blamed on Activision even though Vivendi are the ones that merged their games division with Activision in the first place. Or that as long as the studio has been called Blizzard they have had a parent company.

Look at Diablo North and how it was shut down and the few kept merged into the main Blizzard. It has always been about financial performance and making money. The methods to do it over the years have changed as the industry has. It is also silly to claim they want money at all costs since their games haven't been heavily monetized. They could make a ton of money selling more Overwatch skins as the single charity skin for OW earned more then all the charity pets for WoW.

What's your point?

Let me try to understand.
The first paragraph seems to be themed around Blizzard hasn't changed. The people are the problem and like to blame the easy target "Blizzard has changed". You're saying the customer is the correct target, not the company?

People also often blame the incorrect parent company Activision and forget about Vivendi. What's the relevance?

The second paragraph seems themed around the industry has changed. I am silly (btw I didn't claim they want money at all cost, I regret it was interpreted that way). Blizzard can monetize WoW even more and makes more money off of other games. What your point? Since they're not fully exploiting WoW, could make more elsewhere and the industry has changed then nothing is wrong?

[Gaidax]

(1) About T6 legendaries - it might be shocking, but T6 legendary is an item you completely customize with stats and powers you want and have it at ilvl that is beyond anything that exists ingame. I'd say that warrants some effort there to make - you literally get absolute BIS item there second to none.

It also must be noted that you absolutely don't need to craft all dozen of powers you have there and you most certainly don't need to have them all at T6. Legendary effects are as good at T1 as they are at T6, so whether legendary you have is T6 (requires effort) or T4 or less (basically a freebie as of now) - the difference is pretty small.

So right now it's a combination of top end ultimate items requiring reasonable effort given their power, but not being hard blocked either, because lesser versions are literally as good when it comes to key powers themselves.

Not sure what's the issue then... maybe only that base items are a bit too overpriced at the moment, but it will also go down in time.

---

(2) I, personally, like Covenant system a lot - in my opinion ability to tweak your character in some way that will differentiate it from other people playing same character is pretty great.

Now, of course, this is WoW and community self-trained itself to be good slaves to the meta, no matter how minor the difference might be, so that's where this idea bumps into a hard wall of reality. In the end if you are a Warlock, then you are either Night Fae or What??? Which is a weakness of this system given the kind of community we have.

I hope next expansion they take this system but somehow evolve in such a way where all performance enhancing benefits of covenants (or whatever rebrand it will be), such as abilities and soulbinds are available for all akin to talents where you pick one but can change. But on the other hand the flavor, perks like dungeons and world access, minigames and other stuff are locked behind hard choice like now. This, IMO, would be the best way for this.

So bottom line, Covs are good - can be evolved in even better system that will make many happy.

---

(3) I would not mind seeing conduit energy gone. I imagine they did it so that people won't go crazy with constants rebinding and reslotting of everything for that single best soulbind across multiple specs. It 100% would be annoying AF.

But maybe it's ok to just shrug and let players decide on that one instead. Relaxing it a bit would be ok too, like double the pool and give 2 points per day. Still achieves the goal, but has a bit more freedom there.

[Jamais]

What's your point?

Wantee to quotw your original post, but i am just gonna do it on this one. I disagree with your original post and I think these issues are vastly more complex then the simple "time metrics" or other buzzwords people keep repeating.

Please tell me how during classic (and to a smaller, but noticeable extent TBC) respected your time compared to modern WoW? There is a reason why many people called Vanilla the walking simulator. Mathematically, in Vanilla you would die if you pulled more then 2-3 mobs, with the exception of frost mages. Stuff like resist etc. if it existed today, it would also be blasted as an arbitary, fake way to slow you down. When I was playing Vanilla, i simply didnt have enough time to do any meaningful progress on ky char. Atunements, raid mats, consumables - all of those things slowed the player down in face of doing "real content".

Shadowlanda has its faults, but i am not convinced the points you made hold true. Sorry but you cant compare the grind in SL to Legion. There is no mandatory grind, and i dont count doing an hour and a half of torghast a week a grind. In Legion, i was so burned out from farming AP out of fear from missing out that i unsubbed for 8 months. BfA improved on this since the neclace was clsss wide. In SL anima is purely for cosmetics and covenant stuff.

In Legion legendaries were much more powrful and much more rng and frustrating, before last patch where you needed, guess what, grind the currencY. in SL you get your bis item in two weeks.

Player mentality had a lot to do with the perception of ingame systems, as is evident from Vanilla and TBc. Simply put, the minn max obsession is what caused this...and Blizzard wanted to break this with covenants, but it fell flat on its face. Half of the compaints about SL ia having too much to do, hals is about not having anything to do. Also, Blizzard never should have listened to a fair numbers of streamers, and among those, Preach is by far the worst since his PoV was from that of a m raider. Most of the peoplw who left SL are casuals, since the mantra of let loot be loot left them walled from progression atfer the removal of TF and loot in general being more scarse after BfA showered you with epics. Ive warned many people repeatedly during beta that they are in for a quite a shock about being given less loot.

Removal of TF, loot mattering more, no endless grind for power were direct feedback response from the devs. And it opened a whole can of other complaints which we are now seeing.

P.S. let loot be loot was not a bad decision. There was a certain element of satisfaction when in early SL, i got un upgrade with buying a helm at exalted with a faction. Honestly, i cant remember doing that in 10 years.

[rhorle]

People also often blame the incorrect parent company Activision and forget about Vivendi. What's the relevance?
[I]

The dominant culture at Blizzard has been replaced and is reflected in the content. The game is driven by financial performance indicators and the players/consumers are being manipulated to improve these financial metrics.

So you weren't complaining that Blizzard is to focused on financials now? The relevance is that they always were focused on those things but you as a player didn't notice or didn't care. Because you were still enjoying the game enough that it wasn't an issue. Nothing is wrong with the way Blizzard is developing their game. It isn't overly monetized. They are not focusing just on profit at all costs over game play any more then they were in the past.

Could they do better? Sure. But even if they did better that doesn't mean you'll suddenly fall in love with the game again or the issues that caused you to stop play, or dislike the current game, change.

[Gaidax]

The dominant culture at Blizzard has been replaced and is reflected in the content. The game is driven by financial performance indicators and the players/consumers are being manipulated to improve these financial metrics. The culture that committed to the goals inscribed in the Orc statue compass outside Blizzards headquarters is lost:
1) Gameplay First
2) Every Voice Matters
3) Lead Responsibly
4) Commit To Quality
5) Learn & Grow
6) Embrace Your Inner Geek
7) Play Nice, Play Fair
8) Think Globally

I am sorry, but considering the internal cesspit Blizzard developed back when old guard was around, I have to laugh at this statement. Can't really say "Every Voice Matters" when they are being bloody sued by a state about pretty much not doing exactly that. And no it's not the evul Activision - it's internal Blizzard issue proper.

They can write all they want on the statues, but reality is Blizzard's mess is totally their own making and nothing to do with Activision. D3, HoTS and Starcraft effectively killed off is not because "Activision", it's because Blizzard simply failed like half the shit they etched on that statue when it came to these games.

---

Also, this is some huge ass offtopic... No, legendary system, covenants and conduit energy are here not because "something something Activision".

[burnout180]

So you weren't complaining that Blizzard is to focused on financials now? The relevance is that they always were focused on those things but you as a player didn't notice or didn't care. Because you were still enjoying the game enough that it wasn't an issue. Nothing is wrong with the way Blizzard is developing their game. It isn't overly monetized. They are not focusing just on profit at all costs over game play any more then they were in the past.

Could they do better? Sure. But even if they did better that doesn't mean you'll suddenly fall in love with the game again or the issues that caused you to stop play, or dislike the current game, change.

You keep misinterpreting me. Being driven by financial performance indicators doesn't mean "focusing just on profit at all costs over game play".

Could they do better? Sure.

We were in agreement all along. Blizzard can do better and they should.

[Seranthor]

Is it just me who feels restricted in my ability to play Shadowlands the way I want and therefore unable to fully enjoy the game? Areas of friction limiting my freedom and enjoyment include:

1) Legendaries:
Blizzard appears to have put a significant amount of effort into creating all the different legendary memories (approximately 20 per class) and each can be crafted into 11 different slots and each slot can be upgraded by 6 item level tiers. To craft the legendaries requires a significant amount of gold or materials for the base item, x40 Korthite crystals which I receive around 2 per day (20days to farm), 1550 Soul ash, and 1650 Soul Cinders (4 weeks of torghast). What is the purpose of this design? How does Blizzard intend for the player to interact with this complex and restrictive process? I would enjoy trying them all myself but it appears that the only option is to carefully pick 1 or 2 to invest in and hope it remains a competitive choice. Why did they make so many options then restrict the player's ability to try them out?

2) Covenants:
I've spent around 4 months collecting and leveling max command table companions, 2 months collecting conduits, 3 months on the sanctum upgrades. Why do players need to forfeit this and start over in a new covenant to try another class-covenant combination and experience the rest of the shadowlands story? What is the intent of this restriction?

3) Conduit Energy: Why does this exist?

I understand some amount of friction to make game decisions seem meaningful but the amount of friction is too high that I feel controlled by the game. I make a decision then I'm stuck unless I'm willing to invest a tremendous amount of time grinding to catch up. It's opressive.

Perhaps the solution is admitting that Wow might not be for you any longer, and move on.

[rhorle]

You keep misinterpreting me. Being driven by financial performance indicators doesn't mean "focusing just on profit at all costs over game play".

That what does it mean? Because you used as a negative descriptor of what they have become. They have always been drive by financial performance. It is a company and not a charity. Putting profit, those financial indicators, above game play is what most people mean when they say what you did. So why not state what you did say instead of repeatedly say I'm misinterpreting it incorrectly.

[Doffen]

(2) I, personally, like Covenant system a lot - in my opinion ability to tweak your character in some way that will differentiate it from other people playing same character is pretty great.

That is the biggest reason why I like the Covenant system. I choose Covenant based on theme, abilities and cosmetics, and in a position where I can choose anything as I please. Me in the 1% of Venthyr Arcane Mages appearently. See, I am unique.

Saying that, I wouldnt mind your solution either. And flavor is important. Its the uniqueness that draws me personally.

Remember Venthyr is a must for m+ or no invite though before it came live? Glorious days. Didn't really live up to the meta-dream.

[Vampyrr]

It depends on how you like to play the game.

None of this makes sense, because you can look up which conduit is the best, which covenant is the best and which legendary is the best. There is no need to swap and experiment - this is not the game for it(and will never be).

Except that changes on spec. And since changing specs doesnt change covenants and conduits your statement doesnt work at all