This current streamers trend to exit wow is obviously partly hypocritical.

[crusadernero]

Both cash shops are bad. As both WoW and FF streamers have said, it's easier to ignore the cash shop being there if the game is good, and it makes a bad game all the worse.



You haven't refuted anything I said. Sanctioned gold RMT > useless egg rings and hats that nobody buys. WoW has lost over 50% of its playerbase and its profits are up. People sure do love that WoW token. WoW could offer their shop items to players in game as well but they don't. Your arguments as to why FF is "worse" can be equally applied to the WoW cash shop. It's an equal amount of greed in the cash shop existing. That you keep insisting FF is somehow worse when they're the same concept paints you as the fanatic here. It's sad to say, but it seems all that "mad" "triggered" "unhinged" stuff was projection on your part.

The WoW token is a whole other beast that FF has adamantly said they will never create an equivalent of because it destroys the integrity of the game. And they're right.

But I admit one thing, I am no match for the religious fervor of your belief in what you say. No amount of facts can convince you. What needed to be said has already been said. I rattled off tons of things Blizzard has done to squeeze their customers dry. If you refuse to acknowledge Blizzard taking advantage of people's gambling addictions, that's on you.



Man, you sure do love to defend the WoW token. While I was playing during the release of the WoW token, sure, boosts -began- to increase with garrisons. They'd existed before garrisons. They absolutely exploded with the WoW token. And now all people do is buy gold and get boosted. Regardless of what you think the "cause" is, garrisons no longer printing money, and the WoW token being used exclusively to pay for boosts, the WoW token is basically the sole reason boosting and carries flood the looking for group.

It's quite interesting that you love to point out that cash shops are bad and greedy to get a cheap shot at FF, and want other people to admit it, but when it comes to the WoW token, which is extremely worse and FF doesn't have, you can't admit it's bad for the game, and in fact love to defend it? Man this is the weirdest timeline.

I agree with you 100%, the wow token is the worst thing in the game. I despise it and I cant believe people refuse to see what is has done to the game.

At this point I dont care about cash shops anymore, cause they are here to stay no matter what. A shop that sell cosmetics is one thing, the wow token is something very different. It directly affects in game activity, AH prices and so much more. I have never bought the wow token and I never will. Cause of that token, prices for certain mounts have sky rocketed and stuff on the AH has stupid prices. The bronto mount in BfA would NEVER have costed 5 million gold if the wow token werent in the game.

I have always farmed gold for whatever I would need, but in retail wow right now its getting stupid. Prices are so high cause people buy stuff with gold from token and bots are everywhere.

[Kumorii]

Redefining pre-sales as first day sales helped a lot with that.

It's not redefining.. Its literally how everyone uses it. Pre-sales and 1 day sales are the exact same for how the numbers are used. Which is to gauge hype and the success of the marketing strategy. That's all 1 day sales are for.

It's not a metric on how good the game is by any means.. It just means people were hyped for the game.

[Raisei]

I think that Blizzard absolutely needs to curb boosting.

I am able to completely ignore it, so I really couldn't care less.

It is absolutely a menace and I'm saying this as someone who benefits from it passively with raid boosts. There is no way shape or form where this shit in either trade or LFG looks good or leaves a good impression of the game.

Menace? That's a bit dramatic for something that you can completely ignore unless you want to let yourself be triggered by it. There are far more important things then this that need attention.

Selling of ingame services is a sign of game's health? That one is hilarious, it's more of a sign of Blizzard not even bothering moderating that crap even a slightest. It's a sign of abandonment and disrepair.

Sounds more like you didn't understand the argument. People do not sell things if no one wants to buy them. Basic economics. The fact there is enough buisness for the goldsellers and boosters means that there is enough people playing for them to make money.

Besides that, how do you even moderate this? Accounts can be deleted and then the sellers make a new account. Banning IPs might help, but I am sure there are ways around that too. Not much left they can do, especially if the sellers live in a different country.

What happens with boosting currently is a precursor to what happens in China already, where you can't even get into popular activity groups without $$.

That is again extremely dramatic. No one forces you to use the services of a booster. Join a guild, run stuff with them and no one asks you to pay for it.

[Niwes]

I also never see survival hunters ingame, but according to mmochamp and official forums soooo many people play them. LMAAAAAAO
As long as we don't have any token / cash shop etc. data every discussion is kinda meaningless.

And no, i' m not a fan of the wowtoken - i hate the boosting sh*t that is going on. /2. on my realm is unusable.

yeah, thats how to make most money. 3 mio subs instead 4 mio subs ? np, as long as 2 mio pay you 7 bugs for free, by buying a wow token to pay boost grps, and you get even more profit in the end. hey, its all about good quarter figures these days. the times are loooong over (mid 2000s - 2010) when huge longterm investments for a longterm loyal customer base, by simply creating the best high quality product possible, was the way to go. smart cash grab systems like wow token, a therefore supporting game design and rotating some kids in and out of the game, for 2-3 months, while cleansing their wallets, …. thats the way to go in 2021. result: a lot of „WTS“ entries in /2 and PUG tool.

brave new wow world.

[Lolites]

Step in the right direction will be when they release 9.2 that will not be just a stamp sized new area and undertuned raid being the content that's supposed to last 8 months.

always makes me chuckle how after 7 (not 8) months, which is sooooooo much longer(1-2months max compared to other raid tiers) during the pandemic when ALL studios delayed content, a new raid, new (rather small, sure) zone, substantial changes to different zone, megadungeon, assaults, campaign, new daily and world q, crapload of colectibles and other smaller additions is treated like nothing

but during wotlk, after getting 3 new raid bosses and rehashed naxx we waited 5months and get raid and few daily q and thats it, then we waited 4months and get tiny raid with TWO ROOMS (one of them used for dungeon too) and it was enough...

9.1 have enough content compared to past patches, now you personaly might not like it, and thats okay, but saying there is "just a stamp sized new area and undertuned raid" is outright LIE

[sunxsera]

On my realm /2 is used for juvenile anal jokes. I do not see how that is in way better. Boosting at least serves a purpose even if I do not agree with it. Besides Boosting and Gold Selling happens in every online game, including the oh so praised FF.

In fact I have come to see the selling of ingame services as a sign of the games health. People wouldn't bother selling things for a game no one plays, would they?

the problem ist, that these boosters spam the chat so fast you can't see anyting.
there are like 10-20 boosting messages per second.
i still remember the thunderfurry and anal spam too - but i'd actually prefer that. at least /2. was useable back then.

you think all this spamming / boosting is a sign for the games health? i don't think so tbh. =\

in my opinion a game shouldn't have a way to buy every raidboss / m+ / pvp rating / rare mount / achievement for real money.
Just imagine cs:go offering ingame global elite boosts or league of legends offering challanger boosts.
i know many people would use it / do it with rmt - but it shouldn' t be offered from the game devs themselves.

But that's ofc just my opinion and i know many people see it different.

[crusadernero]

I am able to completely ignore it, so I really couldn't care less.





Sounds more like you didn't understand the argument. People do not sell things if no one wants to buy them. Basic economics. The fact there is enough buisness for the goldsellers and boosters means that there is enough people playing for them to make money.

See this is the issue - "basic economics" is used when explaining the wow token in a MMORPG. This is not about how people can generate gold, or understanding "basic economics" within the realm of a MMORPG. Most of us understand that wheres theres a desire and/or need to buy a service, you can make money off of it. But this is something non should advocate for in wow. It doesnt do anything good for the overall health of the game at all. It actually hurts the game, especially when you pair it with the blantant botting that goes on without Blizzard doing shit about it.

I remember "back in the old days" were people would buy gold too, but it was nothing like this. If it were, prices would have doubled, tripled or more. Imagine BfA without the token - would the bronto cost 5 million? ofc not, its to tempt people to buy wow token. Would prices for legendary crafting mats have the prices they have now without the token? No they wouldnt.

Having mounts, cosmetics and all that crap doesnt affect the playerbase to much. But the token? Yezz it has ruined so much more for so many players.

- - - Updated - - -

always makes me chuckle how after 7 (not 8) months, which is sooooooo much longer(1-2months max compared to other raid tiers) during the pandemic when ALL studios delayed content, a new raid, new (rather small, sure) zone, substantial changes to different zone, megadungeon, assaults, campaign, new daily and world q, crapload of colectibles and other smaller additions is treated like nothing

but during wotlk, after getting 3 new raid bosses and rehashed naxx we waited 5months and get raid and few daily q and thats it, then we waited 4months and get tiny raid with TWO ROOMS (one of them used for dungeon too) and it was enough...

9.1 have enough content compared to past patches, now you personaly might not like it, and thats okay, but saying there is "just a stamp sized new area and undertuned raid" is outright LIE

9.1 is a decent patch. I find it allright enough and its certainly not the worst content update in wow. But in 2021 people gotta shit on wow no matter what. No matter what Blizzard brings in 9.2 & 10.0, people will shit on it. Thats just the reality of it, sadly.

Thats how its always been. I dunno how it is on other fansites for other MMORPGs, but I doubt many of them have so many threads talking shit about the game on a daily basis for literally anything.

[Unholyground]

I quit before I even cleared Nathria, the game was a chore, so I cashed my tokens and bought D2R and not going back until it is either free to play or buy to play with no sub. I could no longer justify the monthly fee with the lack of content WoW gets when most free to play games get 10 times the content with 0 fee.

[rhorle]

I remember "back in the old days" were people would buy gold too, but it was nothing like this. If it were, prices would have doubled, tripled or more. Imagine BfA without the token - would the bronto cost 5 million? ofc not, its to tempt people to buy wow token. Would prices for legendary crafting mats have the prices they have now without the token? No they wouldnt.

So you don't remember when the gold selling services would use hacks and corpses to spell out messages? You also can't say that the AH mount wouldn't have existed with out the token. As it was a gold sink aimed at those who play the AH and those people tend to hit the gold cap with out buying tokens (or selling boosts).

- - - Updated - - -

Any time when you have more people spamming to sell a run than you do people looking to group for a run, that is a terrible sign for any game idk how you could try to interpret it any differently?

The only thing it is a sign of is that there are a lot of people trying to make gold through group content (or illegal third parties trying to make $$).

[Ezyah]

I would like to thank FF14 for driving Asmongold and his horde of apes or Preach and his gang of simps away. Hopefully we'll have more people able to think on their own staying.

[rhorle]

Yeah and street crime is only a sign of people trying to make more money. Sure if you want to be extremely simplistic to the point of almost feigning ignorance, yeah.

So what was unhealthy about the game back in Vanilla, TBC, and WotLK when gold spammers were out in force? Advertising, and spamming of it, has nothing to do with the health of a game. It just has to do with the measures put in place to combat spam. It is extremely easy to carry others if you are good at playing the game. Why wouldn't people get in on that if they have a group capable?

[Gaidax]

always makes me chuckle how after 7 (not 8) months, which is sooooooo much longer(1-2months max compared to other raid tiers) during the pandemic when ALL studios delayed content, a new raid, new (rather small, sure) zone, substantial changes to different zone, megadungeon, assaults, campaign, new daily and world q, crapload of colectibles and other smaller additions is treated like nothing

but during wotlk, after getting 3 new raid bosses and rehashed naxx we waited 5months and get raid and few daily q and thats it, then we waited 4months and get tiny raid with TWO ROOMS (one of them used for dungeon too) and it was enough...

9.1 have enough content compared to past patches, now you personaly might not like it, and thats okay, but saying there is "just a stamp sized new area and undertuned raid" is outright LIE

So practically because patch 3.2 was pretty shit, then it's ok to have 9.1 pretty shit too?

Guess what though, patch 3.2 happened back in 2009 when sub count was above 10m and we just only really began having popular gaming explode. Even back when people were much more positive and WoW was booming that patch was considered to be a meme.

Fast forward 11 years, with playerbase decimated and gaming booming (especially thanks to C19 btw) - Blizzard releases what is even worse (because for its faults at least 3.2 tried some new stuff) and you expect me to not say it's complete dogshit and waste of everyone's time to the point you have people claim a step in the right direction is when some tails are added?

Don't make me laugh. COVID? Whole fucking gaming industry is ballooning hard, yet somehow Blizzard with all its experience and $$ manages to fuck that up? Heck look at Activision's Warzone, they don't give a fuck it's COVID - the game is spiking into stratosphere because it's good and keeps pumping updates. Rehash of 10 more CoD versions? What you mean like WoW effectively is with its expansions?

The issue is not COVID - the issue is Blizzard not doing enough and/or not planning well enough.

- - - Updated - - -

I would like to thank FF14 for driving Asmongold and his horde of apes or Preach and his gang of simps away. Hopefully we'll have more people able to think on their own staying.

Great plan, you need to be Blizzard exec there. Cutting their noses to spite the face is their thing for years now, you'd fit.

Blizzard at top WoW streamers: "fuck those guys who needs them and their hundreds of thousands followers anyway lulz, we can just rearrange some words in our quarterly report - problem solved".

I'm legit shocked you don't understand just the magnitude of the disaster this is.

[Lolites]

9.1 is a decent patch. I find it allright enough and its certainly not the worst content update in wow. But in 2021 people gotta shit on wow no matter what. No matter what Blizzard brings in 9.2 & 10.0, people will shit on it. Thats just the reality of it, sadly.

yeah i think its good patch, not bad, but not great either
but to be fair, people were bitching about wrath when it was current too, only after it was over it became best thing ever...
though its always funny when some people whine about current patches/expansion being empty and as a example of greatnes praise wrath and its patches...

[rhorle]

Guess what though, patch 3.2 happened back in 2009 when sub count was above 10m and we just only really began having popular gaming explode. Even back when people were much more positive and WoW was booming that patch was considered to be a meme.

Are you remembering correctly? Why was Argent Tourney raid patch a meme? Even more laughable that you don't think Shadowlands (or at least 9.1) tried anything new.

[rhorle]

Back then it was an indication that more moderation was needed to combat those gold spammers and Susanexpress. It's like the Obi Wan meme Blizz was meant to destroy gold sellers, not become them.

Funny how the indication of spam changes based on the argument you want to make. Just shows that it isn't an indicator of game health.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Don't make me laugh. COVID? Whole fucking gaming industry is ballooning hard, yet somehow Blizzard with all its experience and $$ manages to fuck that up? Heck look at Activision's Warzone, they don't give a fuck it's COVID - the game is spiking into stratosphere because it's good and keeps pumping updates. Rehash of 10 more CoD versions? What you mean like WoW effectively is with its expansions?

So what gaming industry are you watching? Because the only one I see seems to be filled with games like baldur's gate, PoE2, God of war, cyberpunk77 dlc, prince of persia, FFxiv expan, ect, all delayed.

Is it just Cod? Is that the only game you follow outside of blizzard ones?

[rhorle]

If you want to believe that who am I to worry about it. Like in my original point you have to feign a lot of ignorance to make it that simple, but you do you.

What? You just stated it has nothing to do with the health of the game because spammers back in the day didn't equal the game being "unhealthy". All the spammers today indicate is that there needs to be more moderation. It has nothing to do with the health of the game. Because the spammers would exist regardless even if the game was peaking in popularity.

[Gaidax]

Are you remembering correctly? Why was Argent Tourney raid patch a meme? Even more laughable that you don't think Shadowlands (or at least 9.1) tried anything new.

Because it featured a 2 rooms raid with 6 bosses. After Ulduar it was a joke and we rightfully complained about it to no end. Heck even without Ulduar, it was one of the worst full tier patches ever.

Also please list all them exciting new features of 9.1. Torghast facelift and poor-man's Maw Assaults? Bigg... Even besides that, it's simply a poor man's patch. Korthia is probably one of the shittiest zones added as a patch, but hey we got more Maw and Torg, because it's what people love.

[Echo of Soul]

Sounds more like you didn't understand the argument. People do not sell things if no one wants to buy them. Basic economics.

Just because people want to buy it doesn't mean that it should be sold. Hard drugs and guns for example.

The fact is that you can buy gold legally with real money, that should never be allowed in any game, especially when you can use that gold to buy boosts making the game P2W.

[Soon-TM]

I agree with you 100%, the wow token is the worst thing in the game. I despise it and I cant believe people refuse to see what is has done to the game.

At this point I dont care about cash shops anymore, cause they are here to stay no matter what. A shop that sell cosmetics is one thing, the wow token is something very different. It directly affects in game activity, AH prices and so much more. I have never bought the wow token and I never will. Cause of that token, prices for certain mounts have sky rocketed and stuff on the AH has stupid prices. The bronto mount in BfA would NEVER have costed 5 million gold if the wow token werent in the game.

I have always farmed gold for whatever I would need, but in retail wow right now its getting stupid. Prices are so high cause people buy stuff with gold from token and bots are everywhere.

At this point I'm starting to think that even stuff like PoE's cash shop (and its arguably P2W stash tabs) is less harmful overall than the widespread carry culture that tokens enable and feed. And PoE is a F2P game for crying out loud.