1. #24401
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    The interesting question will be, how to deal with this in the long term.
    Hope for something that actually gets rid of it or else wait for the inevitable mutation that royally fucks everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  2. #24402
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Hope for something that actually gets rid of it or else wait for the inevitable mutation that royally fucks everyone.
    <sigh> Or neither of those two scenarios.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    <sigh> Or neither of those two scenarios.
    I don't know where you get your optimism from, considering the past years, but I don't share it. I know, sars-cov-2 can't mutate too much or something but I'd rather we not risk it if we have, and we do, the means to fight it right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  4. #24404
    Quote Originally Posted by caractacus View Post
    Where are you getting your information from on how deadly covid is? Because I have to tell you you are way off.
    I guess death rate will be quite a lot higher when people can't get the necessary oxygen in hospitals anymore when those are overrun. There is a slight difference between a home and an ICU when it comes to survival chances.

  5. #24405
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    It's delta.

    And it's mostly the unvaccinated. With delta, we're definitely seeing some breakthrough cases where vaccinated people get sick, but very, very few of them are dying. Delta is cutting a swathe through the unvaccinated, though.
    I wish they would start to give more detailed data on this / started collecting such data earlier.
    I know that German hospitals are now only beginning to gather data on whether a person in ICU/morgue was vaccinated or not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Hope for something that actually gets rid of it or else wait for the inevitable mutation that royally fucks everyone.
    Maybe. Or maybe protection against severe cases/death will last long enough to get by with a yearly shot.

    Unfortunately, we are only starting to gather the necessary data, so it will be some time before the situation becomes clearer.

    Fact is though, that Delta will ravage the unvaccinated part of the population, so it'll be interesting whether politicians can keep their tentative promise of "no further hard lockdowns" during winter.

  6. #24406
    Herald of the Titans Tuor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Hope for something that actually gets rid of it or else wait for the inevitable mutation that royally fucks everyone.
    We can only wait and see where this leads to. I hope that the virus eventually gets replaced by another virus, after all, there are other coronaviruses that seem to have caused a pandemic, like the 1890 one.

    So far, all viruses that caused a pandemic eventually get replaced by other viruses. The question here his, given the hight Rt of sars-cov-2, how long will it take?

  7. #24407
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Schleswig-Holstein's state registration office today reported the corona infection events for vaccinated and unvaccinated people in the north for the first time. The infection rate among the unvaccinated is 104.2, more than ten times higher than among the vaccinated, said a spokesman for the Ministry of Health. For unvaccinated people, as of yesterday, it was 104.2 infections per 100,000 inhabitants within seven days. In the case of vaccinated persons, the value was therefore 8.8.

    According to the Ministry of Health, the cases taken into account come from the reports from the health authorities. The reference value comes from data from the Federal Ministry of Health and the Robert Koch Institute. As of yesterday, the rate of fully vaccinated people in Schleswig-Holstein was 63.9 percent.
    Certainly sounds encouraging.

  8. #24408
    Texas Anti-Mask ‘Freedom Rally’ Organizer Fighting For His Life With COVID-19
    His pregnant wife said this week that the hospital was “out of options” for her husband.


    Dude! You have got 3 young daughters and a pregnant wife. What is wrong with you.

    I wish somebody had told him that.

    When he first felt symptoms on July 26, his wife told the Standard-Times, he refused to get tested or seek medical care. He instead began treating himself with a cocktail of Vitamin C, zinc, aspirin and ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug that has been falsely promoted as an effective treatment for COVID-19 by conservative media. He was taken to the hospital on July 30.

    Jessica Wallace told the Standard-Times that she was “less conservative” than her husband and personally wears a mask.

    “Caleb would tell me, ‘You know masks aren’t going to save you,’ but he understood I wanted to wear them,” she said. “It gives me comfort to know that maybe, just maybe, I’m either protecting someone or avoiding it myself.”

  9. #24409
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    I don't know where you get your optimism from, considering the past years, but I don't share it. I know, sars-cov-2 can't mutate too much or something but I'd rather we not risk it if we have, and we do, the means to fight it right now.
    It's not really optimism, though, it's realism. It's the most likely outcome based upon an understanding of the nature of viruses in general and coronaviruses in specific.

    There's a good article in The Atlantic about what I've been saying for a long, long time now.

    The Coronavirus Is Here Forever. This Is How We Live With It.
    In the 1980s, doctors at an English hospital deliberately tried to infect 15 volunteers with a coronavirus. COVID-19 did not yet exist—what interested those doctors was a coronavirus in the same family called 229E, which causes the common cold. 229E is both ubiquitous and obscure. Most of us have had it, probably first as children, but the resulting colds were so mild as to be unremarkable. And indeed, of the 15 adult volunteers who got 229E misted up their nose, only 10 became infected, and of those, only eight actually developed cold symptoms.

    The following year, the doctors repeated their experiment. They tracked down all but one of the original volunteers and sprayed 229E up their nose again. Six of the previously infected became reinfected, but the second time, none developed symptoms. From this, the doctors surmised that immunity against coronavirus infection wanes quickly and reinfections are common. But subsequent infections are milder—even asymptomatic. Not only have most of us likely been infected with 229E before, but we’ve probably been infected more than once.

    This tiny study made little impression at the time. In the ’80s and ’90s, coronaviruses still belonged to the backwater of viral research, because the colds they caused seemed trivial in the grand scheme of human health. Then, in the spring of 2020, scientists urgently searching for clues to immunity against a novel coronavirus rediscovered this decades-old research. Before the emergence of SARS-CoV-2, which causes COVID-19, only four known coronaviruses were circulating among humans, including 229E. All four of these coronaviruses cause common colds, and in the most optimistic scenario, experts have told me, our newest coronavirus will end up as the fifth. In that case, COVID-19 might look a lot like a cold from 229E—recurrent but largely unremarkable.

    That future may be hard to imagine with intensive-care units filling up yet again during this Delta surge. But the pandemic will end. One way or another, it will end. The current spikes in cases and deaths are the result of a novel coronavirus meeting naive immune systems. When enough people have gained some immunity through either vaccination or infection—preferably vaccination—the coronavirus will transition to what epidemiologists call “endemic.” It won’t be eliminated, but it won’t upend our lives anymore.

    With that blanket of initial immunity laid down, there will be fewer hospitalizations and fewer deaths from COVID-19. Boosters can periodically re-up immunity too. Cases may continue to rise and fall in this scenario, perhaps seasonally, but the worst outcomes will be avoided.

    We don’t know exactly how the four common-cold coronaviruses first came to infect humans, but some have speculated that at least one also began with a pandemic. If immunity to the new coronavirus wanes like it does with these others, then it will keep causing reinfections and breakthrough infections, more and more of them over time, but still mild enough. We’ll have to adjust our thinking about COVID-19 too. The coronavirus is not something we can avoid forever; we have to prepare for the possibility that we will all get exposed one way or another. “This is something we’re going to have to live with,” says Richard Webby, an infectious-disease researcher at St. Jude. “And so long as it’s not impacting health care as a whole, then I think we can.” The coronavirus will no longer be novel—to our immune systems or our society.

    Endemicity as the COVID-19 endgame seems quite clear, but how we get there is less so. In part, that is because the path depends on us. As my colleague Ed Yong has written, the eventuality of endemic COVID-19 does not mean we should drop all precautions. The more we can flatten the curve now, the less hospitals will become overwhelmed and the more time we buy to vaccinate the unvaccinated, including children. Letting the virus rip through unvaccinated people may get us to endemicity quickest, but it will also kill the most people along the way.

    The path to endemic COVID-19 will also depend on how much the virus itself continues to mutate. Delta has already derailed summer reopening plans in the U.S. And with so much of the world still vulnerable to infection, the virus has many, many opportunities to luck into new variants that may yet enhance its ability to spread and reinfect. The good news is this virus is unlikely to evolve so much that it sets our immunity back to zero. “Our immune responses are so complex, it’s basically impossible for a virus to escape them all,” says Sarah Cobey, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Chicago. For example, levels of antibodies that quickly neutralize SARS-CoV-2 do indeed drop over time, as happens against most pathogens, but reserves of B cells and T cells that also recognize the virus lie in wait. This means that immunity against infection may wane first, but the protection against severe illness and death are much more durable.

    Protection against severe illness and death was, in fact, the original goal of vaccines. When I spoke with vaccine experts as the trials were under way last summer, they universally told me to temper expectations. Vaccines against respiratory viruses rarely protect against full infection because they are better at inducing immunity in the lungs than in the nose, where respiratory viruses gain their first foothold. (Consider: The flu shot is 10 to 60 percent effective depending on the year.) But “the extraordinary efficacy” from the initial clinical trials raised expectations, Ruth Karron, the director of the Center for Immunization Research at Johns Hopkins University, told me. With the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines 95 percent effective against symptomatic infection, eliminating COVID-19 locally, like measles or mumps in the U.S., suddenly seemed possible.

    Then came the less pleasant surprise: new variants, like Beta, Gamma, and now Delta, that erode some protection from vaccines. “We now are where we thought we would be a year ago,” Karron said. The vaccines still protect against serious illness very well, as expected, but herd immunity again seems out of reach. The virus will continue to circulate, but fewer people will get sick enough to be hospitalized or die. Highly publicized outbreaks among vaccinated people, such as in Provincetown, Massachusetts, already show this pattern playing out. And entire countries with high vaccination rates, such as the U.K., Iceland, and Israel, are also seeing spikes with only a fraction of their pre-vaccine deaths.

    The timing and severity of reinfections and breakthrough infections once COVID-19 becomes endemic depend on how quickly the protective effects of immunity against the virus wanes. And that, in turn, depends on a combination of two factors: first, how quickly our immune systems get rusty against SARS-CoV-2, and second, how quickly this coronavirus evolves to disguise itself. The immunological machinery is simply harder to rouse against an old enemy. But a reinfection or breakthrough infection does reinvigorate the immune response. A breakthrough case acts “like a booster for the vaccine,” as Laura Su, an immunologist at the University of Pennsylvania, told my colleague Katherine J. Wu. In the 229E study, the doctors also found that the volunteers who did not get infected the first time were more likely to be infected when exposed a year later, compared with volunteers who got sick the first time—suggesting that more recent illness is more protective.

    The virus itself will also change with time. As more people gain immunity via either infection or vaccination, the coronavirus will try to find ways to evade that immunity too. This is a natural consequence of living with a circulating virus; the flu also mutates every year in response to existing immunity. But in the endemic scenario, where many people have some immunity, the coronavirus will not be able to infect as many people or replicate as many times in each person it infects. “I’m very confident that the rate of adaptation is going to be set by the prevalence of SARS-CoV-2 in the world,” Cobey says. You might think of viral replication as buying lottery tickets, in which the virus accumulates random mutations that very occasionally help it spread. And the fewer lottery tickets the virus has, the less likely it is to hit the mutation jackpot. The appearance of troubling new variants may slow down.

    Reinfections with the four common coronaviruses are likely driven by a combination of our immunity fading and the viruses themselves evolving. Putting together everything we do know, a pattern starts to emerge: We are likely first exposed to these common coronaviruses as children, when the resulting disease tends to be mild; our immune systems get rusty; the virus changes; we get reinfected; the immune response is updated; the immune system gets rusty again; the virus changes again; we get infected. And so on.

    In the best case, COVID-19 will follow the same pattern, with subsequent infections being mild, says Stephen Morse, an epidemiologist at Columbia University. “If the burden of disease is not high, we take [the virus] very much for granted,” he says. Still, these colds are not completely benign; one of the common-cold coronaviruses has caused deadly outbreaks in nursing homes before. In a less good scenario, COVID-19 looks like the flu, which kills 12,000 to 61,000 Americans a year, depending on the season’s severity. But deaths alone do not capture the full impact of COVID-19. “A big question mark there is long COVID,” says Yonatan Grad, an immunologist and infectious-disease researcher at Harvard. There are still no data to prove how well the vaccines prevent long COVID, but experts generally agree that a vaccinated immune system is better prepared to fight off the virus without doing collateral damage.

    The transition to endemic COVID-19 is also a psychological one. When everyone has some immunity, a COVID-19 diagnosis becomes as routine as diagnosis of strep or flu—not good news, but not a reason for particular fear or worry or embarrassment either. That means unlearning a year of messaging that said COVID-19 was not just a flu. If the confusion around the CDC dropping mask recommendations for the vaccinated earlier this summer is any indication, this transition to endemicity might be psychologically rocky. Reopening felt too fast for some, too slow for others. “People are having a hard time understanding one another’s risk tolerance,” says Julie Downs, a psychologist who studies health decisions at Carnegie Mellon University.

    With the flu, we as a society generally agree on the risk we were willing to tolerate. With COVID-19, we do not yet agree. Realistically, the risk will be much smaller than it is right now amid a Delta wave, but it will never be gone. “We need to prepare people that it’s not going to come down to zero. It’s going to come down to some level we find acceptable,” Downs says. Better vaccines and better treatments might reduce the risk of COVID-19 even further. The experience may also prompt people to take all respiratory viruses more seriously, leading to lasting changes in mask wearing and ventilation. Endemic COVID-19 means finding a new, tolerable way to live with this virus. It will feel strange for a while and then it will not. It will be normal.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    We can only wait and see where this leads to. I hope that the virus eventually gets replaced by another virus, after all, there are other coronaviruses that seem to have caused a pandemic, like the 1890 one.

    So far, all viruses that caused a pandemic eventually get replaced by other viruses. The question here his, given the hight Rt of sars-cov-2, how long will it take?
    What do you mean "replaced"?

    It's not that they get replaced, it's that the viruses are no longer novel; at some point, everyone's immune system has had a chance to learn to fight the virus in question. Once that happens, the Rt of SARS-CoV-2 will be drastically lowered.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  10. #24410
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Certainly sounds encouraging.
    And that's just infection rate, not even hospitalization and death rates, which should necessarily be even lower.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  11. #24411
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Texas Anti-Mask ‘Freedom Rally’ Organizer Fighting For His Life With COVID-19
    His pregnant wife said this week that the hospital was “out of options” for her husband.


    Dude! You have got 3 young daughters and a pregnant wife. What is wrong with you.

    I wish somebody had told him that.
    Goddammit. I know my first thought is "Serves him right. Kick him out of the hospital and make space for people who actually listen to reason." but those kids of his don't deserve to go through such pain. I hope people aren't harassing the wife with "Well, maybe if your husband were smarter/followed science, he wouldn't be in such a condition" online at the very least.

  12. #24412
    All the stories out there about the people being in hospitals being unvaccinated ones makes ya wonder if we are not locking down in the US in order to try to cull that section of the population off.

    Scary stuff.

  13. #24413
    sort of a random musing. I'm the only one of my family that got moderna, everyone else got Pfizer. I'm also the only one in my family that had strong week's worth of side effects vs them getting minor pain at the injection site for 2 days. I'm genuinely starting to wonder if when we have to go for a third shot if they will let me have pfizer instead of moderna. because even looking through this thread, it seems like people who got pfizer didn't have nearly as many side effects and those that got moderna (I'm only comparing mrna vaccines to keep it apples to apples)

  14. #24414
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    sort of a random musing. I'm the only one of my family that got moderna, everyone else got Pfizer. I'm also the only one in my family that had strong week's worth of side effects vs them getting minor pain at the injection site for 2 days. I'm genuinely starting to wonder if when we have to go for a third shot if they will let me have pfizer instead of moderna. because even looking through this thread, it seems like people who got pfizer didn't have nearly as many side effects and those that got moderna (I'm only comparing mrna vaccines to keep it apples to apples)
    Well I got 3x Pfizer and aside from pain in my arm where the shot was done, there was nothing for me. Same for few other people I know.

    This is just an anecdote though and we don't use Moderna yet, so can't compare. I understand we're only going to start using Moderna starting next week for first timers only.

    But then better to get anything you can and fully. Some temporary side effects are worth the protection.

  15. #24415
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    sort of a random musing. I'm the only one of my family that got moderna, everyone else got Pfizer. I'm also the only one in my family that had strong week's worth of side effects vs them getting minor pain at the injection site for 2 days. I'm genuinely starting to wonder if when we have to go for a third shot if they will let me have pfizer instead of moderna. because even looking through this thread, it seems like people who got pfizer didn't have nearly as many side effects and those that got moderna (I'm only comparing mrna vaccines to keep it apples to apples)
    I got moderna myself. Only had a sore arm the second shot for 1/2 day. TBH i think if you got pfizer you'd probably have the same effects as moderna. though it's a booster, maybe no side effects since your body is already adjusted for it.

  16. #24416
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    It’d be nice if you vaccinated your occupied territories too, but I guess that’s not a concern.
    We offered them plenty vaccine back in May, first they accepted, then they refused - it went to South Korea instead who happily took it all.

    Can't vaccinate stupidity.

  17. #24417
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    yeah, give em a bunch of expiring doses and pretend you’re doing good.
    It had one month to go.

    PA did not take it, South Korea took just fine. Guess they don't need to conjure bullshit refuse statements just to snub them evil zionists at cost of cutting their own arm.

    But sure, you be you.

    https://apnews.com/article/middle-ea...47975c2fa647c4

    This was supposed to go to PA, but they decided to halt it. Not our problem.

    Last edited by Gaidax; 2021-08-28 at 01:34 AM.

  18. #24418
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Fewer doses, fun. Clearly they didn’t fully meet standards and you WERE trying to force expired shit on PA. Have fun being a Trumpster who denies it!
    Wat...

    Yeah ok whatever floats your boat... sheesh.

    I guess idiotic agendas are more important than vaccine, who would have thought. And I'm the "Trumpster" here, says the anti-vaxxer.

  19. #24419
    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    I got moderna myself. Only had a sore arm the second shot for 1/2 day. TBH i think if you got pfizer you'd probably have the same effects as moderna. though it's a booster, maybe no side effects since your body is already adjusted for it.
    I guess that's the hope - my reaction to second shot WAS milder. my booster eligibility is months away (from everything that I saw, they are not recommending getting it too soon). though I would imagine severity of the reaction would be similar with close genetic relatives? again this is anecdotal it just seems like while its still possible to have mild symptoms with moderna, its more likely to have stronger side effect response with moderna than pfizer. (it makes a difference to me cause I genuinely do not handle pain well and that week was... rough... )

    P.S. personaly... PA reaction is strongly reminding me of the rhetoric I've seen from some conservatives where vaccine is not trusted because its coming from democrats now.

  20. #24420
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    sort of a random musing. I'm the only one of my family that got moderna, everyone else got Pfizer. I'm also the only one in my family that had strong week's worth of side effects vs them getting minor pain at the injection site for 2 days. I'm genuinely starting to wonder if when we have to go for a third shot if they will let me have pfizer instead of moderna. because even looking through this thread, it seems like people who got pfizer didn't have nearly as many side effects and those that got moderna (I'm only comparing mrna vaccines to keep it apples to apples)
    I got two Pfizer shots. I wouldn't even describe it as a mild local discomfort at the point of injection. I literally had worse from playing paddle.

    GF got Moderna, on the first shot she was knocked out for 48 hours. Mild fever, exhaustion, headache. Second shot she got sleepy next night and slept a solid 10 hours. That was about it.

    I think it just varies from person to person and immune response to immune response.

    I also had Covid early on, tested and diagnosed, I had 1 night of high fever, mild joint pain, mostly from the fever, for about 2 days and that was it.

    Other people fucking die from it, other people who are otherwise younger and healthier.

    It's a crap shoot.

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