Tyrande and Sylvanas and why i hate how they are portrayed.

[Asrialol]

"Hate" is a strong feeling to have about a game, and even the lore in that game. It's a red flag when it comes to your mental health, probably.

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas' revelation this expansion comes from the empathy she feels for Anduin despite their miniscule prior dynamic. Jaina is cast as an irrational woman for being pissed about her city being nuked during Mists, compared to Varian.

But the main one is Tyrande, who despite having her race steamrolled expansion after expansion and having the exact same goal of toppling Sylvanas as everyone else is cast as being irrational. This is more moderate than either her War Crimes or WC3 version, who was entirely fine with attacking the orcs (and the humans). Tyrande, and indeed the Alliance as a whole, have their grievances limited to Sylvanas for the purposes of absolving the cancerous tumor that is noblesavagery from any responsibility, and yet despite her views being identical to everyone else's, Tyrande is treated as being uniquely unreasonable, a trait not shared with anyone else.

Talanji needs to learn from Memeboi how to love her fellow man, but I don't count her because she doesn't give up on her completely correct grievances by the end of Shadows Rising.

I think maybe the whole Sylvanas and Anduin empathy thing is more because of Arthas than Anduin, perhaps.

[Super Dickmann]

I think maybe the whole Sylvanas and Anduin empathy thing is more because of Arthas than Anduin, perhaps.

The book cover suggests it's her projecting her brother onto Anduin and he's also the only other person outside the Jailer in Torghast, so it's not that galling, but ultimately it's also something that doesn't give her pause re: her sisters or Nathanos.

Anduin is the vessel of all that is supposed to be good in the franchise. There is never a case where he is wrong and another character is right to have questioned him.

[Powerogue]

The book cover suggests it's her projecting her brother onto Anduin and he's also the only other person outside the Jailer in Torghast, so it's not that galling, but ultimately it's also something that doesn't give her pause re: her sisters or Nathanos.

Anduin is the vessel of all that is supposed to be good in the franchise. There is never a case where he is wrong and another character is right to have questioned him.

"Man, this Arathi Highland meetup between the forsaken and their families that Anduin helped arrange that involved trusting Sylvanas was such a good idea! We're so glad we agreed to it!"

Anduin is the vessel of good intentions in this franchise, there's a distinct difference there.

[Triceron]

If you gender swap any male character to female, you'd get the same bad writing applied to them all. Anduin is your typical mary-sue turned damsel in distress turned evil despot ala Kerrigan, with a much more passive personality behind him. If he was female, people would be complaining like mad how he's been 'oppressed and manipulated'. Baine is a damsel in distress, and doesn't really amount much more than that. Like, these archetypes aren't targetting female characters, it just triggers certain people whenever it happens to a female character more than they really think about it applying to all characters.

[Powerogue]

I think maybe the whole Sylvanas and Anduin empathy thing is more because of Arthas than Anduin, perhaps.

Yes. It's less "oh poor Anduin, who I care about all of a sudden." And more "Damn, he looks exactly like Arthas. Standing there all dominated like that. Still, it's going to take something pretty blatant, like the Big Bad directly admitting to my face that he intends to do that to me too that could get it through my thick skull that we're the baddies."

I think Taliesin had a fair point that people being so stubborn towards believing something that they'll double down when presented with conflicting evidence is a very real phenomenon.

[Super Dickmann]

"Man, this Arathi Highland meetup between the forsaken and their families that Anduin helped arrange that involved trusting Sylvanas was such a good idea! We're so glad we agreed to it!"

Anduin is the vessel of good intentions in this franchise, there's a distinct difference there.

Anduin is not cast as being mistaken about this. Everyone involved in it who had hang-ups like Genn and Turalyon praise and apologize for him and everyone blames Sylvanas for shooting the defecting high traitors who'd be necked or get life imprisonment in any current state as well Desolate Council. Over the course of one hour he solves the Forsaken-Human divide and is only stopped from going all the way because of Sylvanas.

He's a pestilential Gary Stu made marginally better in Shadowlands because he finally gets to personally suffer some consequences and because every other Azeroth-connected character is aggressively boring so his moments of characterization, like calling out Sylvanas on her mental retardation and his pain over being a sock puppet are more evocative.

[geco]

Tyrande: Justice claims.
Tyrande: The rage is mine.
Tyrande: My life for hers.

Elune: Tyrande invoked me, it is her choice whether to pursue vengeance or renewal.

[Powerogue]

Tyrande: Justice claims.
Tyrande: The rage is mine.
Tyrande: My life for hers.

It does bring up interesting questions. There's plenty of examples where giving up an obsession with hating someone is far from the same thing as forgiving them or caring for their well-being.



So, Sylvanas is in our clutches. Once we get the information extracted from her that we need to stop Zovaal, what do we do with her?

1) Despite it justifiably sickening everyone in every faction, if Sylvanas, now merged in soul and seemingly capable of understanding the wrong in her actions, tried to fix them? And I'm not talking some last minute selfish sacrifice like she tried to do (and hilariously failed) by flipping off Zovaal, but actual, rough, long-term fixing. Would Tyrande let that happen?

2) If Thrall took it upon himself to honor their last bargain, the proof that "the Horde has changed", what would Tyrande's reaction be? I just picture him throwing a bag with Sylvanas's head in it on her lap and her barely reacting, just handwaving and saying "burn it."

Of those theoreticals I'd pick #2 myself.

[geco]

It does bring up interesting questions. There's plenty of examples where giving up an obsession with hating someone is far from the same thing as forgiving them or caring for their well-being.

Never talk about forgiveness. Although it is good that you take it out because then that is the feeling that History gives.

But back to the topic. We have a Tyrande who three times says she wants revenge and when Elune comes the pose then suddenly changes her choice.

This is too suspicious.

___
Besides that the choice does not make sense. Because Tyrande was already doing a night warrior renovation and she didn't really have to choose anything. Because now after saving the forest from her goddess's sister, she could continue hunting Sylvanas.

[VladlTutushkin]

It does bring up interesting questions. There's plenty of examples where giving up an obsession with hating someone is far from the same thing as forgiving them or caring for their well-being.



So, Sylvanas is in our clutches. Once we get the information extracted from her that we need to stop Zovaal, what do we do with her?

1) Despite it justifiably sickening everyone in every faction, if Sylvanas, now merged in soul and seemingly capable of understanding the wrong in her actions, tried to fix them? And I'm not talking some last minute selfish sacrifice like she tried to do (and hilariously failed) by flipping off Zovaal, but actual, rough, long-term fixing. Would Tyrande let that happen?

2) If Thrall took it upon himself to honor their last bargain, the proof that "the Horde has changed", what would Tyrande's reaction be? I just picture him throwing a bag with Sylvanas's head in it on her lap and her barely reacting, just handwaving and saying "burn it."

Of those theoreticals I'd pick #2 myself.

It will go like that: "Sylvanas good now, Tyrande peaceful now, chooz renual, forgib."

Thats plus some flimsy excuse from Thrall and what not.

If you think Sylvanas will face any consequences aside from MAYBE a stern talking or two you are kidding yourself, your ancestors and your gods. (last part was for flavor's sake)

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Anduin is not cast as being mistaken about this. Everyone involved in it who had hang-ups like Genn and Turalyon praise and apologize for him and everyone blames Sylvanas for shooting the defecting high traitors who'd be necked or get life imprisonment in any current state as well Desolate Council. Over the course of one hour he solves the Forsaken-Human divide and is only stopped from going all the way because of Sylvanas.

He's a pestilential Gary Stu made marginally better in Shadowlands because he finally gets to personally suffer some consequences and because every other Azeroth-connected character is aggressively boring so his moments of characterization, like calling out Sylvanas on her mental retardation and his pain over being a sock puppet are more evocative.

Only a few were defecting. The rest were coming back , and coming back in accordance with the established rules of the meeting.

Even Stalin was less paranoid, he would have at least had those coming back questioned before having them shot dead.

[Mic_128]

If you gender swap any male character to female, you'd get the same bad writing applied to them all. Anduin is your typical mary-sue turned damsel in distress turned evil despot ala Kerrigan, with a much more passive personality behind him.

I would have said more like Valerian Mengsk. I mean, hell, they're basically the same person, right down to the blonde ponytail.

[Eggroll]

Well, not every women. Look at Jaina. She was able to deal with her emotions and now she evolved into a great character. Also there are few men who are completely out of control.

No Jaina wasn't "able to deal with her emotions", like Tyrande, she had her capital destroyed by the Horde, her people mass murdered - and then miraculously let go of her need to bring those responsible to justice.

And the Horde, yet again, got off scot free for genocide. Yay. No reparations, no rebuild, no internment camps for war criminals, nothing.

It is exactly this portrayal of "emotions" that is misogynistic. It's like emotions are "bad" by default.

To me, it feels like it is written by a narcissistic, abusive, psychopathic asshole.
Someone who tortures a person and then mocks them for being in pain. Yikes.

Also, see my signature.

There is of course a solution to this: don't use factions and leaders as major plot devices.

[Super Dickmann]

Only a few were defecting. The rest were coming back , and coming back in accordance with the established rules of the meeting.

Even Stalin was less paranoid, he would have at least had those coming back questioned before having them shot dead.

Per Calia while she was trying to rope Elsie into defecting, everyone was defecting save Elsie herself and those that were already with Sylvanas from Day 1. Some of them just happened to start drifting back once the dark rangers took position, ergo, they were in the process of defecting but gave up on it once it became clear they might fail. Defecting to someone screeching about being your rightful monarch in an ostensible peace summit with a power you're at war with, as the Horde and Alliance only had an armistice at the time and were still at war, constitutes high treason. If you happen to be a high official, say the administrator of the capital city, that's even more iffy. In my country, that gets you life imprisonment, but we tend to be pussies about this sort of thing. Most everywhere else that either gets you the chair or you later end up killing yourself with two shots to the back of the head.

No Jaina wasn't "able to deal with her emotions", like Tyrande, she had her capital destroyed by the Horde, her people mass murdered - and then miraculously let go of her need to bring those responsible to justice.

The worst thing the Horde did to Jaina prior to BFA was nuke a mostly evacuated city that was involved in a war against them. Boo-hoo. I don't count them killing her dad because she was very happy to let that happen or their actions in the Second War because if she cared one iota about dragons cooking her brother she wouldn't immediately be joining up with them in WC3 and mention him zero (0) times until he turned from a pile of ash to a corpse for the purposes of pathos.

Even the later retcon of Garrosh feeding Theramore survivors for a full year to use them for target practice elevates him to having behaviour identical to Kul Tiras itself. Her forgiving the Horde is still asinine because it doesn't follow at all from what she's witness to and from her own perspective Theramore would be very traumatic as would losing her home to people who she gave everything to for no justifiable reason, but let's not kid ourselves on how much she's actually suffered on any kind of objective scale.

[Icelin]

Before i begin, small exposition to put things in perspective. I am a dude from Russia, land where women still considered rebellious kitchen gadgets. So when i thought “oh, thats kinda sexist” about WoW lore i double checked myself before deciding to write it down.


So, Tyrande and Sylvanas - two characters that played a considerable role in BfA and Shadowlands and which both make me suddenly think that such portrayal of women is just not right.


They both are used to show the weird and ugly idea that women choosing violence or force to achieve their goals are “wrong” or doing this in bad faith and because of “being controlled by emotions” instead of common sense or justice and good of their people.

I honestly didn't like when Jaina went on a murder spree in Dalaran on the Blood Elves. (Sunreavers) She was a loose cannon. "Controlled by emotions" Killing people that were not responsible for the order Garrosh made. Innocent bystanders. She also imprisoned people. Almost killing Thrall at one point too.

Tyrande is forced to choose “renewal” which rings back to “women should not go to war” idea that really should not be prevalent in fantasy, god knows we have it all over Military irl (in Russia at least). That females are too “emotional and unstable” and driven by sudden petty angers and hysterics instead of cold and calculating intellect or brave and patriotic heart. And it is layered THICK with “her anger” this and “her rage” that. Tyrande presented as a woman in hysteria, instead of an avenger and heroine of her people! Her own daughter disapproves of her actions and wants her to “calm down”.

I just gave you a source where this has happened with a female character in this franchise. The whole reason she was unstable in my mind is innocent bystanders were involved. Including almost killing one of her closest allies. She did go to war tho. Women are able to go to war and not deemed as hysterical. I am not sure where you are getting this notion from. It has been done several times in the past. Tyrande was probably deemed "hysterical" because she wasn't listening to her allies. No matter how much they plead with her. Including her "daughter." This term can be used for males too and it is called going rogue. Which makes them a liability ultimately.

And so in the end Tyrande chooses to come back to Shandris and “let go of anger”, essentially laying down her arms and returning to “hearth and home”. “Girl done playing soldier” as is! Quite disgusting tbh. It surprisingly angered me, even though before i often laughed at feminists on the net and posted “go back making sandwiches” type memes.

I already stated once before if they want to progress this story. I feel it is better for her to be in a better state of mind. Not everyone will feel this way. It very well could be done.

Then Sylvanas… while i hate her guts and consider her a cancerous character that ruins the franchise i now feel almost double bad for her. So her decisions were not made by her sinister, cruel mind but were a result of psychosis! Of her being “not herself” because of Jailer. All her agency is gone now! She is shown as gullible, foolish thing who made all the wrong choices but ALSO made them because of a Big Man behind her who put her in power. Who gave her control over others. Who gave her strength and ability to fight. Take away that man and she is NOTHING.

I feel like this is a presumptuous statement. She took a hit, do we really know if she is rendered completely powerless? She might not have the powers from the Jailer. Doesn't mean she doesn't have some strength within herself.

Also her mind was “unstable”, a common theme of derogatory description of women, that their mental health is fragile and they are prone to insanity more then men. Idk how it really is but i dont think its true…

Not all female characters in the franchise have been portrayed this way. It seems like when they are a central focus, it might happen to make things more "interesting". Which can be a bit exhausting, it has happened to many characters in this franchise despite gender.... I really enjoyed the whole Velen vs Kil' Jaeden story. (I understand other people might not feel the same way..)

Your closing statement was about feeling angered. I would look on the positive. Sylvanas lost her crutch. Which seemed to be something that bothered you. If Night Elves really wanted revenge including Tyrande, she would have a more tactical mind to do so now. So to me it seems like they addressed all the issues that you are not very happy about.

[Gaidax]

While OP did make sense for me, I caught myself in a thought that with a bit of reaching and a smidge of glue you can tie just about everything there is to the pet agenda of your choice.

In my opinion, both characters are simply "human" or well... "elf".

I don't think you can expect stellar perfection out of a person who has her whole home burned down before her with a literal smell of fried meat filling her nostrils as everything she stood for burns down around her.

Of course it's a deep trauma that fucks with your mind - you don't need to be a female to experience that. Go ask your Afghanistan vets.

And her going on warpath is also fully understandible, I'm not sure how it's even hysterical response there given the circumstances. It's not like she goes full road rage over cold coffee.

She consorted with power that is beyond her understanding and messed up with her body and soul. That's OK too, shit like this can happen. You have more than enough people drunk with power that go off the rails irl too, male or female alike. This is pretty similar.

Same goes for Sylv. She's driven by a very real fear of having fate worse than hell and it's not irrational either, because she got a preview in lore sometime around WoTLK as to what awaits her.

Yes she got power from a guy, so what. What are we going to go full gender separation now for all heroes and villains, lest we may trigger some SJW landmine?

TLDR - people need to chill with reaching a tad. Not everything is a hidden crime against humanity or must be danced around to almost a maniacal level to try and avoid some sucked out of thumb controversy.

[Eggroll]

The worst thing the Horde did to Jaina prior to BFA was nuke a mostly evacuated city that was involved in a war against them. Boo-hoo. I don't count them killing her dad because she was very happy to let that happen or their actions in the Second War because if she cared one iota about dragons cooking her brother she wouldn't immediately be joining up with them in WC3 and mention him zero (0) times until he turned from a pile of ash to a corpse for the purposes of pathos.

Even the later retcon of Garrosh feeding Theramore survivors for a full year to use them for target practice elevates him to having behaviour identical to Kul Tiras itself. Her forgiving the Horde is still asinine because it doesn't follow at all from what she's witness to and from her own perspective Theramore would be very traumatic as would losing her home to people who she gave everything to for no justifiable reason, but let's not kid ourselves on how much she's actually suffered on any kind of objective scale.

I mean, the Burning of Teldrassil should have opened old wounds, it is absolutely not reasonable for her to not be able to relate to Tyrande and the nelves.

It's like the hen and the egg at some point. But it's always the Horde that actually retaliates, and it's always the Alliance that loses cities and territories on a big scale. So why is it ok for the Horde to actually retaliate, like in the bombing of Theramore, but not for the Alliance, despite them having far superior war machinery?

[Nerovar]

I mean, the Burning of Teldrassil should have opened old wounds, it is absolutely not reasonable for her to not be able to relate to Tyrande and the nelves.

It's like the hen and the egg at some point. But it's always the Horde that actually retaliates, and it's always the Alliance that loses cities and territories on a big scale. So why is it ok for the Horde to actually retaliate, like in the bombing of Theramore, but not for the Alliance, despite them having far superior war machinery?

Because the Alliance are the good guys in this story who need to teach the Horde how civilization works.

[Super Dickmann]

I mean, the Burning of Teldrassil should have opened old wounds, it is absolutely not reasonable for her to not be able to relate to Tyrande and the nelves.

It's like the hen and the egg at some point. But it's always the Horde that actually retaliates, and it's always the Alliance that loses cities and territories on a big scale. So why is it ok for the Horde to actually retaliate, like in the bombing of Theramore, but not for the Alliance, despite them having far superior war machinery?

I entirely agree that Jaina should not have forgiven the Horde. Nothing in the expansion would lead her to that conclusion and while from an outside perspective I consider her mostly to have got what's coming to her re: Theramore, from her own perspective it would be a very traumatic experience that would only be reinforced with later things like the Horde attacks on Kul Tiras. Instead she and her whole kingdom forgive them apropo of nothing.

As regards pushback, the only ones consistently denied it are the night elves. Night elves and dwarves are also the ones who are invariably less powerful than their lore would suggest. As regards the rest of the Alliance the power differential with the Horde is minimal to negative.

[ravenmoon]

Before i begin, small exposition to put things in perspective. I am a dude from Russia, land where women still considered rebellious kitchen gadgets. So when i thought “oh, thats kinda sexist” about WoW lore i double checked myself before deciding to write it down.


So, Tyrande and Sylvanas - two characters that played a considerable role in BfA and Shadowlands and which both make me suddenly think that such portrayal of women is just not right.


They both are used to show the weird and ugly idea that women choosing violence or force to achieve their goals are “wrong” or doing this in bad faith and because of “being controlled by emotions” instead of common sense or justice and good of their people.



Tyrande is forced to choose “renewal” which rings back to “women should not go to war” idea that really should not be prevalent in fantasy, god knows we have it all over Military irl (in Russia at least). That females are too “emotional and unstable” and driven by sudden petty angers and hysterics instead of cold and calculating intellect or brave and patriotic heart. And it is layered THICK with “her anger” this and “her rage” that. Tyrande presented as a woman in hysteria, instead of an avenger and heroine of her people! Her own daughter disapproves of her actions and wants her to “calm down”.


And so in the end Tyrande chooses to come back to Shandris and “let go of anger”, essentially laying down her arms and returning to “hearth and home”. “Girl done playing soldier” as is! Quite disgusting tbh. It surprisingly angered me, even though before I often laughed at feminists on the net and posted “go back making sandwiches” type memes.


Then Sylvanas… while i hate her guts and consider her a cancerous character that ruins the franchise i now feel almost double bad for her. So her decisions were not made by her sinister, cruel mind but were a result of psychosis! Of her being “not herself” because of Jailer. All her agency is gone now! She is shown as gullible, foolish thing who made all the wrong choices but ALSO made them because of a Big Man behind her who put her in power. Who gave her control over others. Who gave her strength and ability to fight. Take away that man and she is NOTHING.


Also her mind was “unstable”, a common theme of derogatory description of women, that their mental health is fragile and they are prone to insanity more then men. Idk how it really is but i don't think its true…


And now i am done writing, sorry for my tangent. I just felt strangle conflicted, as if i shouldnt write it down like that and make myself sound “unmanly” but i am moved to do so anyway because of how weird and fucked up those two characters were portrayed!


Thread warning:

Keep things specific to wow lore. We can discuss the writing of female characters, but not if it turns into winge about irl agendas.

Don't over think things.. this is warcraft.

For Sylvanas to truly be redeemed, and become a heroine again, her time as an evil witch has to make her look pathetic, used, and week.

I think Tyrande shows the struggle of choosing between revenge and forgiveness, in the case of a horrible situation having occurred.

What I don't like is how women keep playing soldiers in many of these US programs as men, and not as women. Now I know the way some women work is very man like - it's how they choose to be, and is often due to how some of them are brought up.. usually by father's without mothers having much of an influence in their lives.

Without generalising and psycho analysing much, some of these shows basically lazily just gender swap the character without altering it.. so it's literally a man, but looks like a woman, which always comes off as false to me. However I do note that this is a power fantasy of a certain type of woman anyway, and it makes me feel weird (your fantasy is to be male like) - flattering, but women have such amazing qualities themselves and love how their approach is softer and different, and I tend to like when women are portrayed positively, and with strength, but in their own way.. not with aggression and dominance in typical male ways and there are also many female characters in many shows and movies that do an excellent job.. the woman is cool, she's a leader, she has strength and shines, but in her own way, you just don't feel she's a man.

I guess it depends on the quality of the writer really, and how much they understand about people. Or what the fantasy involved is. .

As long as there are enough good programs giving good examples of the strength that both sexes have, so at least people don't think we all have to be like testosterone pumping males.. and that is the gold standard or only way to do it. Which sadly when hollywood settles on a formula... you just get everything going that way these days. Well, not everythign but too much.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

No Jaina wasn't "able to deal with her emotions", like Tyrande, she had her capital destroyed by the Horde, her people mass murdered - and then miraculously let go of her need to bring those responsible to justice.

And the Horde, yet again, got off scot free for genocide. Yay. No reparations, no rebuild, no internment camps for war criminals, nothing.

It is exactly this portrayal of "emotions" that is misogynistic. It's like emotions are "bad" by default.

To me, it feels like it is written by a narcissistic, abusive, psychopathic asshole.
Someone who tortures a person and then mocks them for being in pain. Yikes.

Also, see my signature.

There is of course a solution to this: don't use factions and leaders as major plot devices.

Yeah, sometimes it’s like that even in real life when people hurt you and then you react badly and yet it’s you who has to apologise for your reaction. Then mostly you are considered weak for choosing to apologise. When you however chose revenge because you can’t stand the pain they caused you are considered crazy and psychotic. It’s so confusing you know. See, Uther for example blaming himself for throwing Arthas into the Maw, but Arthas killed so many people that this is unbelievable. It’s all that he deserved. People may defend him for not being in control or making bad choices but there were many innocents that ended up in the Maw and I think this isn’t fair. Still, maybe if Jaina continued her crusade against the Horde it would lead her to certain death, instead she choose to save Azeroth with Thrall and others, seeing that not every Horde is evil. Sometimes when you chose to renewal instead of revenge this can bring remarkable results as nothing is better than your enemies seeing you thrive. Revenge makes you feel better for the short period of time then you have to take steps into recovery. It speeds up the whole process but you still waste time for revenge. I don’t really know which is better. I tried both in life but gained similar results.