To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[Kallisto]

It’s funny you describe it like that yet over half the people here say those who complain offer no solutions whatsoever.

Let people voice their complaints and stop the appeal to authority crap. Once upon a time Blizzard actually listened to player feedback. Hell they used to discuss ideas for the future far ahead of time so we could engage in a conversation. I remember in vanilla they had an amazing webpage that showed things they were working on for the near future and things they were considering long term. They engaged with us on forums well before doing anything. To get a feeling for what players liked or may find problematic. It actually worked well which is why in my opinion every expansion until Cata was an improvement on the previous expansion. Then they decided hey fuck discussions around MoP.

Really you act like every player wants something vastly different. From what I’ve seen that isn’t the case at all. And honestly it doesn’t matter if they did. If most players are saying hey this mechanic sucks please change it because of “blank”, it doesn’t matter what their idea for a fix is. It tells Blizzard this is a problem and it’s up to them to figure out what to do better.

OK here's a quick question about listening to feed back and you better answer in a way that isn't "Cater to me fuck the rest."

100 people complain. When asked for solutions they ha e 200 different ideas that can't help exist in the same game. Your job is to make every single fucking last one of them feel like they have catered to 100%.

Do it and again the rules. No making about catering to just you and every single one of them has to be made happy 100%. Go oh and no "you can't" either.

[Musty]

Except this is not how game design works? I studied game design and have released an Android game before. One of the main things you learn when studying game design is how to get player feedback and how to use it, maybe blizzard should look up some courses.

When I built my first prototype for my game, I gave it to people to test and give feedback. Turns out the game was way too hard and they couldn't get past the first section. I HAD to make it easier and more friendly otherwise no one would want to play it.

No one is saying blizzard should do everything everyone says but they should make the game FUN and if players don't find it fun, they should change it.

I recently tried to play my warrior for PvP, grinded some battlegrounds and got some gear. Decided I wanted to upgrade of my gear and guess what, I couldn't because I had to farm renown. If you think this is fun, you have brain damage.

[jaysphan129]

meh I wouldnt throw preach in with those two mongoloids

[KaPe]

OK here's a quick question about listening to feed back and you better answer in a way that isn't "Cater to me fuck the rest."

100 people complain. When asked for solutions they ha e 200 different ideas that can't help exist in the same game. Your job is to make every single fucking last one of them feel like they have catered to 100%.

Do it and again the rules. No making about catering to just you and every single one of them has to be made happy 100%. Go oh and no "you can't" either.

You make it sound like Blizzard devs have no brain of their own and cannot filter the feedback in any way. Like it's their first game ever and the entire development process is based on some random internet posts. And yet, considering that 9.1.5 seems to implement a lot of suggestion from players shows that they *do* know which kind of feedback counts. They know how to filter out the noise and choose what matters. The issue is that they have their own "vision" they don't want to see changed - and thus it feels like feedback is ignored for months/years, until it finally happens in (usually) last major patch.

Also, the fact that Preach could do an interview with Ion (more than once, even) shows that they do realize that these people can influence thousands of players - far more than some random "fire Ion and delete LFR, now!" post does. They are not idiots who cannot grade feedback in different ways depending on the source.

[Revamp Man]

Guys I just got off the ptr
Oh my god it’s terrible
I can swap from necroLord to kyrian THE HORROR!!!!
I can swap between ST and aoe conduits constantly and it made me sick
Worst part is little Timmy was doing the same thing and I found out and I just….I can’t
Someone save me

[Kralljin]

100 people complain. When asked for solutions they ha e 200 different ideas that can't help exist in the same game. Your job is to make every single fucking last one of them feel like they have catered to 100%.

Then you should have a CM to compile that feedback and present in a decent form to the developers, those then decide what to act further.
Devs aren't supposed to copy ideas from the communtiy at verbatim, but rather look to the underlying issue.

If people are starving and beg for food, then the smart solution is to give those people work so they can buy food, not just *give* them food.

And here's the deal in regards to SL: They are basically now giving into the "Covenant restrictions suck!" feedback - just almost one year later, they are essentially admitting that they were wrong in those instances.
Which, you know, would not even be the greatest issue in the grand scheme of things, but rather, that this has now happened for the 3rd time.

It happened with AP / Legiondaries in Legion
It happened with Azerite / Corruption in BfA
It happened with Covenants / AoE cap in SL

If you think your design is superior, fine, then you simply have to live with certain people not liking your decisions, you can't make everyone happy.
But your MO to design a game just cannot be to first disagree with feedback, only to then implement months later, at a certain point you should wisen up and realize that those restrictions and inconveniences are not making the game better.

Because that is the underlying theme of all those cases: They are restrictions to prevent the player to play the game in a certain way.

[Zantera]

Complaints about Shadowlands loot were valid - they gave us both the valor upgrade system and additional drops in raids. It doesn't matter if some people wanted triple the drop rate. You don't ignore entirety of feedback just because there are some extreme cases. It's developers job to go through it and decide what's worthwhile. Unfortunately, in recent years they decided it means "ignore it for months and then implement in the last major patch".

I think when it comes to loot, they have failed to find the right balance. In Legion and BFA loot didn't feel rewarding at all because you had your 'fixed' slots you couldn't replace, and the abundance of loot just made upgrades feel a lot less exciting than before. Especially with something like titanforging at its most RNG. SL took it too much in the opposite direction initially - I think partly due to people's "make it more like Classic" comments. So they tried to make loot more rare like it was in classic and the pendulum swung the other way.

Personally I don't mind the drop rate we currently have in SL but I would like some form of added safety net or extra roll with the weekly vault. Either make it so you can't get 2-3 of the same item slot as options OR make it like a slot machine where they let you pull a lever once and reroll our options. I still probably have 5 or 6 slots that aren't 252 and a main reason is half the weeks I've gotten useless items. The fact that domination shards are also an obstacle doesn't help.

[KaPe]

I think when it comes to loot, they have failed to find the right balance. In Legion and BFA loot didn't feel rewarding at all because you had your 'fixed' slots you couldn't replace, and the abundance of loot just made upgrades feel a lot less exciting than before. Especially with something like titanforging at its most RNG. SL took it too much in the opposite direction initially - I think partly due to people's "make it more like Classic" comments. So they tried to make loot more rare like it was in classic and the pendulum swung the other way.

There's also the fact that they left PvP as a superior way of getting gear - upgradeable, targetable items, that were superior to non-mythic/weekly m+ loot. It was better for getting PvE loot than actual PvE, which was not a thing that should happen.

Either way, my point was that Blizz did act on player feedback in this case - and relatively quickly, too. It shows that they do listen to it, including "all the Preaches". They're just too stubborn about some ideas, taking far too long to fix them and making people feel like their input is worthless.

[Flade]

So you are saying that autistic people are folks the world should be "saved" of? $&#@ing reported.

You just posted cringe, think before posting cringe next time.

[Aliven]

Then you should have a CM to compile that feedback and present in a decent form to the developers, those then decide what to act further.
Devs aren't supposed to copy ideas from the communtiy at verbatim, but rather look to the underlying issue.

If people are starving and beg for food, then the smart solution is to give those people work so they can buy food, not just *give* them food.

And here's the deal in regards to SL: They are basically now giving into the "Covenant restrictions suck!" feedback - just almost one year later, they are essentially admitting that they were wrong in those instances.
Which, you know, would not even be the greatest issue in the grand scheme of things, but rather, that this has now happened for the 3rd time.

It happened with AP / Legiondaries in Legion
It happened with Azerite / Corruption in BfA
It happened with Covenants / AoE cap in SL

If you think your design is superior, fine, then you simply have to live with certain people not liking your decisions, you can't make everyone happy.
But your MO to design a game just cannot be to first disagree with feedback, only to then implement months later, at a certain point you should wisen up and realize that those restrictions and inconveniences are not making the game better.

Because that is the underlying theme of all those cases: They are restrictions to prevent the player to play the game in a certain way.

They are there to stretch time played. To have people log in. They are created with purpose, those are problems Blizzard intentionally put into wow to then "fix" it.

They dont deserve even a single praise for this. They deserve bag of dicks.

[Tubben]

Be careful what you wish for.


You're basically Homer in this episode.

Haha, so true.

[Soon-TM]

You just posted cringe, think before posting cringe next time.

Reported

[Lolites]

Let people voice their complaints

never said they cant
i just said in 99% cases blizzard knows BETTER than them, and have no reason to listen to their bullshit

Once upon a time Blizzard actually listened to player feedback.

yep, like they listened to feedback there is nothing to do in wod outside raid - they added AP, they listened people felt forced to grind - they made it optional in sl, now people complain they are forced to grind AND there is nothing to do... you see why this "feedback" is mostly useless?

every expansion until Cata was an improvement on the previous expansion

oh yeah that was definitely bcs of player feedback

Really you act like every player wants something vastly different.

bcs they do... well, not every, but if you ask 1000 players you will get 200-500 different ideas, a lot of them mutualy exclusive

If most players are saying hey this mechanic sucks please change it because of “blank”, it doesn’t matter what their idea for a fix is. It tells Blizzard this is a problem and it’s up to them to figure out what to do better.

and as i said before, that is completely okay with me if they say WHY it doesnt work, like "remove AOE cap it makes game slower" is valid opinion, "remove torghast bcs its shit" is whining

you are ofc free to voice your opinion, thats point of forums, just dont tell blizz "doing THIS will definitely make the game better for all", and if you happen to give your opinion about how to make the game better dont act like its ONLY idea that will make game better or as if blizard HAVE TO listen to you

- - - Updated - - -

No one is saying blizzard should do everything everyone says but they should make the game FUN and if players don't find it fun, they should change it.

this is such stupid thing to say define what is "fun" to everybody please, if its so easy to make game "fun"
there are as of now people playing wow who dont consider raiding or m+ or battlegrounds or arenas fun, should we remove all of that? no, bcs someone else DOES consider it fun... there is no such thing as a game feature that is fun to everybody...

as for your game and feedback on it, sure, if you get feedback "game is too hard" its not realy a problem, if your feedback was "game is shit, change it" what would you do? or if the feedback was "its shit, make it fun"?

- - - Updated - - -

I recently tried to play my warrior for PvP, grinded some battlegrounds and got some gear. Decided I wanted to upgrade of my gear and guess what, I couldn't because I had to farm renown.

are you aware you can farm renown by doing ...battlegrounds?
battlegrounds do reward renown its not the fastest way (by far id say) but if thats what you want to do in game, that shouldnt be an issue...

- - - Updated - - -

If you think this is fun, you have brain damage.

what a lovely opinion nicely summing why blizz shouldnt listen to most of their playerbase
"what I PERSONALY like is fun, what i dont like is not, and if someone else does like it he is brain damaged"

[Alexplode]

Be careful what you wish for.


You're basically Homer in this episode.

This guy is the 1% mythic raider or a blizzard employee on disguise.

[mst3kfan]

Preach was spot on about his PTR critiques of: Legion leggos, azerite armor, and covenants. Asmon is more of a reactionary, his best critiques are usually of Twitch. But for Ion to ignore prominent criticisms over and over, this is why the game is tanking. The one system they did right in Shadowlands, PvP, was the one spot where they actually listened to PTR players and revised. Players complained, they changed, they complained again, change again, players happy.

And then there's Ion who ignored all the warnings about covenant abilities. Legion's success went to his head I think.

Asmon is clinically a moron. The Covenant's are an integral part of the story for this expansion. They immersed you directly into the role that your Chosen Covenant plays within the Shadowlands world. While leveling you got a taste of each, and YOU chose the one you wanted to play. There was a perfectly adequate means to change Covenants if you changed your mind later. If it was "to hard" for you then you are playing the wrong game. The swap could be completed within 24 hrs, and was very easy to accomplish.

Plenty of feedback was received and implemented. Blizzard can't help that the player base does nothing, but complain about everything even when they get exactly what they want. It is never good enough for them. The story has been great, the content has been good, and the systems themselves have been solid.

[Sin of Pride]

This guy is the 1% mythic raider or a blizzard employee on disguise.

All the raider wants is a raid... they don't add any features...

[Nootz]

Asmon is clinically a moron. The Covenant's are an integral part of the story for this expansion. They immersed you directly into the role that your Chosen Covenant plays within the Shadowlands world. While leveling you got a taste of each, and YOU chose the one you wanted to play. There was a perfectly adequate means to change Covenants if you changed your mind later. If it was "to hard" for you then you are playing the wrong game. The swap could be completed within 24 hrs, and was very easy to accomplish.

Plenty of feedback was received and implemented. Blizzard can't help that the player base does nothing, but complain about everything even when they get exactly what they want. It is never good enough for them. The story has been great, the content has been good, and the systems themselves have been solid.

Imagine genuinely believing this. If you care absolutely nothing about how your class performs or do nothing in the game outside heroic dungeons then I can see it. Most of the playerbase chose their covenants by performance; not aesthetic or story. You are a very small minority.

Blizzard received tons of feedback and didn't do anything with it until shit hit the fan for their business. Now, all of a sudden, the feedback was heard and actions taken because the game is losing popularity very fast. If Blizzard pulls another stunt like this then expect tons of players to just leave.

[Deneios]

Asmon is clinically a moron. The Covenant's are an integral part of the story for this expansion. They immersed you directly into the role that your Chosen Covenant plays within the Shadowlands world. While leveling you got a taste of each, and YOU chose the one you wanted to play. There was a perfectly adequate means to change Covenants if you changed your mind later. If it was "to hard" for you then you are playing the wrong game. The swap could be completed within 24 hrs, and was very easy to accomplish.

Plenty of feedback was received and implemented. Blizzard can't help that the player base does nothing, but complain about everything even when they get exactly what they want. It is never good enough for them. The story has been great, the content has been good, and the systems themselves have been solid.

Many people had the choose either viable covenant power and not intresting covenant or shitty power and intresting covenant. Just check how many hunters and druids were Night Fae before 9.1 and then check how many druids respecced to venthyr in 9.1.

As for the story this has been an utter trainwreck. They retconned a blue nobody to be the moustache twirling mastermind of everything bad on azeroth and beyond while having Sylvanas serving him for 2 expansion doing 180 when blue hue thanos says "all will serve".

SL could have been a brilliant way to end stories and bring closure to characters of old. Where is Varian, Neltharion, Tirion or Grom to name a few and where the hell is Arthas.

Good metaphor for SL is that you go to a restaurant and order a expensive steak. While they are bringin the steak to you the waiter trips and the steak falls to the ground. Rather than bring you a new steak they pick it up from the floor and serve it to you.
The difference between you and me is i am not eating the steak and paying for it while you are a dog that is happy to get a steak.

[cool_freezer]

Imagine genuinely believing this. If you care absolutely nothing about how your class performs or do nothing in the game outside heroic dungeons then I can see it. Most of the playerbase chose their covenants by performance; not aesthetic or story. You are a very small minority.

Blizzard received tons of feedback and didn't do anything with it until shit hit the fan for their business. Now, all of a sudden, the feedback was heard and actions taken because the game is losing popularity very fast. If Blizzard pulls another stunt like this then expect tons of players to just leave.

He is plain right. A game should be about fun. A class should be defined if it is fun to play. It should be simple to learn but difficult to master. Playerbase is making wow into a second job. You always had discrepancy between top and bottom dps. 10 years ago nobody gave a f**k about it, except top notch raiders that needed every single dps to beat bosses during world first. That's why covenants are a "failure", 95% of the playerbase is looking up to the top 5% and thinks it must have to play like those 5% and and everyone who is not playing like them is an unwanted guest. This is the most toxic behaviour that can exist and is the reason why the game is dying.

[Nootz]

He is plain right. A game should be about fun. A class should be defined if it is fun to play. It should be simple to learn but difficult to master. Playerbase is making wow into a second job. You always had discrepancy between top and bottom dps. 10 years ago nobody gave a f**k about it, except top notch raiders that needed every single dps to beat bosses during world first. That's why covenants are a "failure", 95% of the playerbase is looking up to the top 5% and thinks it must have to play like those 5% and and everyone who is not playing like them is an unwanted guest. This is the most toxic behaviour that can exist and is the reason why the game is dying.

Why would you not want to make your character stronger in an rpg? That's a huge component of the genre.

When blizzard tied abilities to the covenants that in some cases were drastically better or worse and even the soulbinds that made your class play smoother they failed.

NF Fire Mage or Venthyr Fire Mage or Necrolord or Kyrian. Tell me which one plays better and aligns with the spec better.