Should raid difficulties and LFR be retuned and consolidated?

[glowpipe]

the only thing they need to do is mythic flex! We are a guild of 15-17 people who been together since wod and when we are done with heroic, we go on a break til the next tier, as finding players for a full mythic team is never working out. Deffinately not now, when 80% of the playerbase fucked off. We want to raid mythic after heroic instead of canceling the sub til next tier. So why not add flex mythic. More money for blizzard that way. And we know thats the only shit they care about.

Can unlock mythic flex later so it doesn't fuck up shit for mythic only guilds

[Dhrizzle]

While i'd rather not consolidate any of the raid difficulties, id be okay getting rid of the tourist mode difficulty, as it really serves no purpose anymore. Also from what I understand from other's comments, its just a cesspool of toxic players. So why keep a breeding ground for negative toxic players to fester in?

It's really not that bad. Mostly people show up, kill the bosses and leave with some loot. Sometimes there'll be a mechanic people don't get and occasionally that leads to people being arseholes but other than that it's fine.

[chiddie]

Honestly I think the better solution is as follows

Merge Normal and LFR into 1 queable difficulty with the same ilevel of gear allow things like determination and luck of the draw buffs to remain if you do it as a premade group

Heroic stays the same but the ilvl from heroic is the cap of the season to no matter how much Mythic + you do you will never get above heroic raids ilvl

Mythic raids just drop more heroic gear and is VERY tightly tuned around that gear level and offers prestige cosmetics but the difficulty makes it hard to boost people.

Drops the demand for boosting with normal being queable, heroic being puggable, and Mythic being too hard to boost

Keeps ilvl inflation under control and keeps all the difficultys in place


Perfectly balanced as all should be

Despite what people say in here, no one cares about prestige, cosmetics and achievements, if LFR would give the same gear of mythic, almost no one would do mythic.

A big part of people’s joy in this game is in having a better gear than other people, nothing more. If you break this wall, the house will fall in no time.

[confety]

I dont think you can retune LFR as long as you can get to max level killing monsters and doing quests where monsters are only going to autoattack you or MAYBE cast fireball, then join a LFR and play worse than a literal bot could because you have the same knowledge of the game you had back at level 10.

The game itself would need a complete overhaul of the leveling system that includes making players familiar with raid mechanics slowly but steady, FF14 manages to do that because it is required to progress through dungeons and bosses that teaches you those mechanics, or at least it tries to do that.

And they are not going to do that, so LFR is not going to change any time soon, and normal mode is popular in casual friend raid people.

If they would have to delete a difficulty, which they wont, would probably remove heroic and make the first half of mythic easier to compensate.

[cozzri]

The difficulty levels need to go on, not only in raiding, but also dungeons as well. The various difficulty levels splits and stratifies the playerbase; the population problems wow is developing follows the same exact mistakes made in Diablo 3: 70 Levels, 20 difficulty levels x 2 game modes (adventure+campaign), that's 40 splits on top of player level and paragon (endless grind, aka. sound familiar?)

The community is spread so thin that its almost impossible to find people to play with outside the initial rush of a new season. Granted, WoW player numbers haven't suffered to that such an extreme (yet), I would be weary of following trends developed in Diablo 3 because those systems were not healthy for the game.

Splitting the community is not good, it wasn't good when they did it in Wrath. I'd argue that the steady population decline is the direct result of splitting raids towards the end of WotLK.

[chiddie]

The difficulty levels need to go on, not only in raiding, but also dungeons as well. The various difficulty levels splits and stratifies the playerbase; the population problems wow is developing follows the same exact mistakes made in Diablo 3: 70 Levels, 20 difficulty levels x 2 game modes (adventure+campaign), that's 40 splits on top of player level and paragon (endless grind, aka. sound familiar?)

The community is spread so thin that its almost impossible to find people to play with outside the initial rush of a new season. Granted, WoW player numbers haven't suffered to that such an extreme (yet), I would be weary of following trends developed in Diablo 3 because those systems were not healthy for the game.

Splitting the community is not good, it wasn't good when they did it in Wrath. I'd argue that the steady population decline is the direct result of splitting raids towards the end of WotLK.

Except that D3 is totally soloable and the gear differences between nolifers and casuals is negligible (because gear does not matter that much anymore when you reach a certain difficulty level and you can reach that level quite easy).

I find D3 grinding far more pleasant because you can reach a really high level even if you haven’t that much time to play.

[Queen of Hamsters]

What do you say to people who bring up the fact that pre tourist mode, subscriber counts were at the highest, and yet, they produced raid content each and every expansion up to the point where tourist mode was introduced?

Do those people remember the several raids that were low effort garage or downright recycled?

The sub count and lfr is making a false equivalency. In that same vein, WoD shat all over LFR players/casual players and the game barely survived.

LFR justifying the resources spent on raid instances is fact straight from the creators of the game.

[Stanelis1]

i think there are too many raid and dungeons difficulties in retail wow, but finding which one need to go and which one are to remain is a tough question.

I think normal and heroic raids should be merged, as well as normal and heroic dungeons. Then for mythic + dungeons I think only the current multiple of 5 difficulties should be kept (0, 5, 10, 15, 20, etc).

I also believe LFR is a mistake due to how the community is in this raid difficulty (I ve seen the worst behaviors there) and that nobody can claim they actually have fun in LFR.

[Kralljin]

LFR justifying the resources spent on raid instances is fact straight from the creators of the game.

I think it speaks volumes about LFR itself when the devs aren't justifying it by it being well designed, but it rather being support wheels for engagement of a given game mode.

[cozzri]

Except that D3 is totally soloable and the gear differences between nolifers and casuals is negligible (because gear does not matter that much anymore when you reach a certain difficulty level and you can reach that level quite easy).

I find D3 grinding far more pleasant because you can reach a really high level even if you haven’t that much time to play.

Therein lies the problem; finding people to play with should not be difficult in a multiplayer game. I've seen several comments in this thread from players that want raids to be soloable in WoW in line with your observation. And I agree, gear differences SHOULD be more negligible in WoW; furthermore, having an achievable end goal for your character allows for more time playing alts or taking breaks to avoid burnout; that flexibility needs to come back into WoW. Limitless power grind is not healthy for either game.

[Lodreh]

Seems like most people enjoy the 'Hard Mode' boss activation like Ulduar versus flipping a switch. By that logic LFR and Normal could be combined... and Heroic and Mythic could be combined... when you zone in have a popup vote for 'Hard Mode' at the beginning of the run. Seems like a win-win... then again I suppose you still have 4 difficulties

[Jastall]

hahahahaha

Oh no. You're serious.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Lets do a math problem here. Lets use very easy values. Difficulty increase is 10. Season increase is 2 x difficulty increase so 20.

S1
LFR = 110
Norm = 120
H = 130
Myth = 140

new season
LFR = 130
Norm = 140
H = 150
Myth = 160

new season + 1
LFR = 150
Norm = 160
H = 170
Myth = 180

new season + 2
LFR = 170
Norm = 180
H = 190
Myth = 200

No Mythic (or heroic or LFR. It doesnt matter)
LFR = 110
Norm = 120
H = 130

new season
LFR = 130
Norm = 140
H = 150

new season + 1
LFR = 150
Norm = 160
H = 170

new season + 2
LFR = 170
Norm = 180
H = 190

There's the fucking arithmetic, its not even proper math.

I will wait for your apology.

I truly have no idea what you're trying to prove here. Your own numbers shows that if you entirely drop one difficulty worth 10 ilvl, it means at the end of the expansion you're merely 10 ilvls lower total, not 10 X (number of seasons). You end up at 190 ilvl instead of 200, that's hardly a big change and exactly what I said would happen. Remove both LFR and Mythic and you end at 180 on the top end and so on. I feel like you misread me or something.

And even if somehow it wasn't like that, as I said ilvl inflation hardly matters at all and will always be a thing because Blizzard wants players to feel noticeably more powerful in between tiers, and in between difficulties of a given tier as well. I'd say it's a valid design decision and well worth a few gnashing of teeth over numbers going up too fast or something.

[Alroxas]

Bin the rest.

No /char10

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make normal mode queueable as well

Group Finder says "Hello"

[Ticj]

We don't deal with a stat squish every expansion.
If you actually use math instead of feels then removing a raid difficulty would only reduce the highest ilvl of an expansion by 13 ilvls.
Nothing would actually change.

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The jump between seasons is where the inflation comes in. It has to be enough that running the new raid will almost certainly give good upgrades. Removing a tier won't solve this. If the jump between seasons must stay, ie 2x what a difficulty is, then you need to look at lowering the gap between difficulties. Blizzard don't like this. They want players to notice the transition from say normal progression to heroic progression.

There isn't a lot that can be done unless blizzard changes design philosophies. A squish every 2 expacs for stats with an ilvl squish every fifth?

The irony. It would be 13 Ilvls per tier. I really don't think I need to explain it more than that. Maybe you should brush up on some math skills?

Also homie, there was literally a stat squish in BFA and Shadowlands (the level squish squished stats too!). That's two expansions in a row.

Please, If you're going to be acting like ass, at least be right.

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They moved away from that for a damned good reason: Friends and Family guilds either did LFR, or didn't raid. And that sucked for those guilds.

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The advance in ilvl from one difficulty mode to the same difficulty mode in the next tier can be independent of how many difficulty modes there are, so I don't understand this argument.

In what way could it be independent? You have to have each difficulty have the same gap otherwise the ilvls for each difficulty would begin to overlap.

[Empower]

I truly have no idea what you're trying to prove here. Your own numbers shows that if you entirely drop one difficulty worth 10 ilvl, it means at the end of the expansion you're merely 10 ilvls lower total, not 10 X (number of seasons). You end up at 190 ilvl instead of 200, that's hardly a big change and exactly what I said would happen. Remove both LFR and Mythic and you end at 180 on the top end and so on. I feel like you misread me or something.

And even if somehow it wasn't like that, as I said ilvl inflation hardly matters at all and will always be a thing because Blizzard wants players to feel noticeably more powerful in between tiers, and in between difficulties of a given tier as well. I'd say it's a valid design decision and well worth a few gnashing of teeth over numbers going up too fast or something.

WoW's goal was to become seasonal for the longest time I can't see them reverting that with or without lfr. Overall I think it is a good move so long as extremely rare drops get power creeped out. I don't really want hunters needing sylvannas bow next tier past normal for example given how rare its drop rate seems to be assuming my guilds hunters are simply not cursed.

One or two trinkets needing to be farmed for next tier is annoying in itself.

[phattsao]

If the idea behind "normal" is that you can just jump into a decent PUG and clear it, then normal has failed. Most random groups can't really progress further than the first half.

If the idea behind "normal" is that is still poses a challenge to non-sweaty people, then I guess it's a success.

There does seem to be an overlap where normal might be too hard at times (later bosses) and/or heroic might be too easy at times (earlier bosses) in comparison.

Even LFR has some tuning issues. Fatescribe LFR is harder than some normal bosses were back in say Pandaria. Not sure if that's intentional (the last boss of the previous xpac was also way overtuned for LFR)

[chiddie]

Therein lies the problem; finding people to play with should not be difficult in a multiplayer game. I've seen several comments in this thread from players that want raids to be soloable in WoW in line with your observation. And I agree, gear differences SHOULD be more negligible in WoW; furthermore, having an achievable end goal for your character allows for more time playing alts or taking breaks to avoid burnout; that flexibility needs to come back into WoW. Limitless power grind is not healthy for either game.

It’s not difficult to find people for trivial content, it is for doing non trivial content, that’s why people with few spare time push for more solo content.

Problem is that while in arpgs gear is really only a meaning to push further or try new playstiles, in WoW is the ultimate end. As soon as the player reaches a point in which going further grants no more power, he stops at that point. My D3 friends that push rifts 20 levels above me couldn’t care less that I have their same “ilvl” because the goal of the game is not /flex in front of the auction house.

In WoW players are more worried that “the others” stay put rather than just playing the game the way they want and not worrying about other players. This is why the game is this state and people are leaving.

[Paperfox]

Oh look, another thread about removing LFR.

[kranur]

To be honest LFR can be removed and have normal slightly lower in difficulty with the option to auto queue for it. Can even add a requirement to fully complete a wing before being able to queue for the next.

On that same note, Heroic difficulty in dungeons can also be removed. It serves no actual purpose than to extend going into Mythic by a few hours. And M+ alone has a ton of levels.

[Osmeric]

In what way could it be independent? You have to have each difficulty have the same gap otherwise the ilvls for each difficulty would begin to overlap.

independent of how many difficulty modes there are

You did not successfully read for comprehension.

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To be honest LFR can be removed and have normal slightly lower in difficulty with the option to auto queue for it.

Experience in the past has shown that autoqueue content has to be extremely easy (and lacking in mechanics where an individual can troll by wiping the raid). LFR in MoP (hello, Garalon!) makes this clear.