US, Uk and Australia announce new defence partnership, technology sharing

[Elegiac]

If you can't say anything about about the topic

Which is ironic, because this pointed display of verbal diarrhea is not remotely relevant to the topic:

I think you should only view it as a potential explanation and not an opinion. It's a fact that US leaders were either (secretly) retaliating or they were not because it was just a matter of various circumstances. One of those possibilities is factual and you can't have an opinion on a factual issue in the same way you can't have an opinion about whether the Earth orbited the sun in the last year. If there's more than one explanation then somebody is factually wrong and doesn't have an opinion.

[PC2]

Which is ironic, because this pointed display of verbal diarrhea is not remotely relevant to the topic:

It is relevant to every thread if people think you can have a differing opinion about a factual issue... Opinions should be reserved for non-factual subjective issues.

[Elegiac]

It is relevant to every thread if people think you can have a differing opinion about a fact... Opinions should be reserved for non-factual subjective issues.

That's nice dear. Doesn't work like that in reality considering the same fact can be used to tell multiple stories, but it's a nice thought.

Anyway, what has that to do with the fact ScoMo decided to mortgage Australia's ability to conduct an independent foreign policy because the Liberal Party needs a new boogeyman and China's super fucking convenient in that role? Rofl.

[Mihalik]

The Author believes the sudden American withdraw from Afghanistan without giving enough warning to European Nations and the takeover of the Submarine deal is a act of retaliation after the French and Germans used the Americans Military Power to their advantage, while at the same time advancing the Economic Power of the Americans rivals.

The US complaining about NATO powers using American military power to their advantage is....frankly dumb, considering the Germans and French were in Afghanistan in the first place because the US invoked article 5 of the NATO treaty, basically dragging the Europeans into it.

[PC2]

That's nice dear. Doesn't work like that in reality considering the same fact can be used to tell multiple stories, but it's a nice thought.

Only one of those stories can be the factually correct one. You can speculate about a right or wrong explanation but you can't just say "oh there's not one share truth to the matter so it's my opinion".

Anyway, what has that to do with the fact ScoMo decided to mortgage Australia's ability to conduct an independent foreign policy because the Liberal Party needs a new boogeyman and China's super fucking convenient in that role? Rofl.

That boogeyman would be real if China didn't stop growing rapidly, but now that they've slowed down I do agree that there is too many people using China as a boogeyman at the moment.

[Elegiac]

Only one of those stories can be the factually correct one.

The sky is blue but it's also colorless.

Both are true. What matters is the context you would use either 'fact' in - i.e. what story are you telling using said facts.

That boogeyman would be real if China didn't stop growing rapidly, but now that they've slowed down I do agree that there is too many people using China as a boogeyman at the moment.

And Keating quite correctly points out that the conflation of "rapid growth" with "a military threat" is a self-serving one that isn't necessarily reflective of the truth.

[Shadowferal]

For that article with the German author I think you should only view it as a potential explanation and not an opinion.

A "potential explanation" just on your say so?
Based on what? Your opinion? Based your wide and varied experience perhaps?

[PC2]

The sky is blue but it's also colorless.

Both are true. What matters is the context you would use either 'fact' in - i.e. what story are you telling using said facts.

Awesome, you didn't say the color of the sky is an opinion so I think we're in agreement now. You're describing the sky at multiple levels of abstraction(blue and colorless) which does not create a factual conflict. That's actually good to talk about the world from different angles as long as each description is accurate from within its own domain.

[Strear]

Anyway :

- The first US submarine should be delivered in 2040 (eventual delays unknown), 2030 with France (with expected delays).
- The global cost for those nuclear submarines is unknown yet.
- Many things were supposed to be built on Australian land by australian workforce in the previous contract, it seems it won't be the case in this deal.
- Australia doesn’t currently have a domestic nuclear industry, so maintenance contracts will be executed somewhere else (in UK maybe ?), and I think it's one of the most juicy parts that will follow the delivery of those submarines : maintenance !

In the end, I understand Australian can change their mind, but it should have been clear there was an ongoing " Plan B ", and not " Everything's alright, let's get to the next step ".

[Easo]

1. It is good finally seeing that wakeup call about China has reached some ears.
2. France's reaction reminds me of the stunt De Gaulle pulled and is way overblown.
3. Australia is much more closer to both China and USA than France in more ways than one. An obvious choice, especially after the delays. Also note to Shalcker - you would have received your Mistrals if you were capable of behaving normally. Since you couldnt... Different issue, anyway.
4. Not exactly sure what New Zealand is doing and why they are not into this together... I understand that to them nuclear is the big boo boo, but alternatives could be found.

I'm not terribly sure what France or EU are bitching about.

EU was not bitching about anything, it was just the France.

[Elegiac]

EU was not bitching about anything, it was just the France.

Source for aforementioned bitching from various EU leaders.

[Milchshake]

All of the Cenrtre Right Governments are mad at Biden?

Cool cool.

[Easo]

Source for aforementioned bitching from various EU leaders.

Hey, you can be surpringly useful at times. Had missed this, at least my goverment was silent, guess the others were not.

[Shadowferal]

Hmf....

But despite the irate rhetoric, it was unclear what, if anything, EU leaders could say or do about the matter, which some EU diplomats and officials suggested was more of a commercial dispute between Paris and Canberra, and a matter of wounded French pride, than a genuine cause for rupturing relations with the U.S. and sowing divisions that could weaken NATO.

But despite the very public pronouncements by the EU’s top presidents, some EU diplomats and officials expressed concern that France was dragging the rest of the Continent into an unnecessary fight largely because its own national ego was bruised.

“What’s of concern is that Paris is presenting something which was essentially a bilateral business deal as a blow to the EU as such,” said one Central European official. “I understand Paris might be offended and taken by surprise, but seriously?”

[Easo]

We dont really have a navy large enough to support submarines. We can barely maintain the 2 frigates we have.

Also any government that broke the whole no nuclear thing would find themselves out in the next election. People are becoming more okay with nuclear power, but not nuclear powered military vehicles or weaponry. Our relations with Australia and the US have been cooling. Not that theyve ever been good, beyond superficial diplomacy. Fun fact, American soldiers started a race riot in Wellington because we werent racist enough towards Māori, things never really recovered and anti american sentiments are pretty common, though we do like our mc ds, kfc and coke.

Then there is the fact we are pretty reliant on trade with China so there is literally no reason to rock the boat unless we wanna drown in milk.

That makes it quite clear. Well, about China - you will have to make a choice. Australia is in exactly the same situation. China, of course, knows this and uses it.

[Strear]

Aside of the mess, I don't understand why France isn't part of the Aukus coalition ? We have many places in the indo-pacific part of the world and bases, have a big navy alongside UK in Europe. Seems an " anglosphere " only thing ?

By the way, this article is really, really interesting to read :
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...allies-do-now/

[PhaelixWW]

The Author believes the sudden American withdraw from Afghanistan without giving enough warning to European Nations...

I still don't understand where this comes from. Trump made the deal with the Taliban to be out of Afghanistan by May 1st, 2021 back in February of 2020. Biden was able to push that to August 31, 2021. US troops didn't start leaving until August.

So the idea that European nations "weren't given enough warning" is ridiculous. They had a year and a half, including a four month extension from the original date.

Just how ineffectual are these countries pretending to be, exactly?

[Shadowferal]

So the idea that European nations "weren't given enough warning" is ridiculous. They had a year and a half, including a four month extension from the original date.

Just how ineffectual are these countries pretending to be, exactly?

Well, they are...or..they want something. Just a guess, but when things come down to such a display they want to claim they need to pacify the constituency in their respective countries.

[PhaelixWW]

Well, they are...or..they want something. Just a guess, but when things come down to such a display they want to claim they need to pacify the constituency in their respective countries.

Attempting to pacify their constituency by proclaiming their ineptitude?

Bold strategy, Cotton.

[Machismo]

Well i suppose AUKUS is evidence of Biden siding with the Commonwealth.

The rest is just my take on his personality and policies.

So, no evidence for you. I guess we'll simply discount it.