Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Vorkreist]

The problem with your shitty analogy is this idea that the WoW token enables the behavior. The behavior you dislike is boosting. And boosting existed before the token. And boosting will continue to exist if the token is removed. (Since most current boosting isn't purchased with the WoW token presently it would actually change almost nothing at all.)

I don't care about boosting in itself because in a non-token game there would be too few that actually grinded the gold amount that makes is worth it to boosters and even then you can argue you at least played the game to reach that kind of reward. I care about the game company introducing it as feature of the game sold on cash. Something that trivializes everything and makes the game into a complete clown fest . An obvious as hell p2w. Swipe card and get a boost.

The token doesn't enable the behaviour ? How can you spout something like this ?
Lets see your bad faith shilling logics in action ? In which scenario do you believe more people would buy gold ?
A. Its something that gets you banned and has a risk of getting your data/account stolen hacked by shady third party gold sites ?
B Its a feature officially and safely provided by the game itself

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Is that why it was a million dollar industry before the WoW token? Because Blizzard was "fighting against" it?

What a great argument. "It was a million dollar industry before" because the figure blizzard gets from it now, figure so large they stopped caring about subscriptions is something you would fail to point out. Also back to that idea "bro its something that so few people use that it doesn't affect the game" . So few people use that it became the main driver and focus of revenue from wow in blizzard's eyes.

[Relapses]

I don't care about boosting in itself because in a non-token game there would be too few that actually grinded the gold amount that makes is worth it to boosters and even then you can argue you at least played the game to reach that kind of reward. I care about the game company introducing it as feature of the game sold on cash. Something that trivializes everything and makes the game into a complete clown fest . An obvious as hell p2w. Swipe card and get a boost.

The token doesn't enable the behaviour ? How can you spout something like this ?
Lets see your bad faith shilling logics in action ? In which scenario do you believe more people would buy gold ?
A. Its something that gets you banned and has a risk of getting your data/account stolen hacked by shady third party gold sites ?
B Its a feature officially and safely provided by the game itself

Your hypothetical is easy to defeat since a majority of boosting communities still use RMT transactions to this day. Just like they did before the WoW token existed. Removing the WoW token does nothing other than take away a way for a lot of people to pay for their monthly subscription. It doesn't remove boosting, it doesn't diminish any of the "P2W" aspects of the game you dislike. Your problem isn't the WoW token, it's capitalism. And guess what? We live in a society my dude, deal with it.

What a great argument. "It was a million dollar industry before" because the figure blizzard gets from it now, figure so large they stopped caring about subscriptions is something you would fail to point out. Also back to that idea "bro its something that so few people use that it doesn't affect the game" . So few people use that it became the main driver and focus of revenue from wow in blizzard's eyes.

Got any sources (other than "dude trust me") that the WoW token has "became the main driver and focus of revenue from WoW in Blizzard's eyes"?

[rrayy]

Maybe people trying to convince themselves that it isn't?

A player buys tokens with money, uses tokens to buy gold. Uses gold to buy BiS gear and runs. Sellers and service providers sell some of that gold for real money.

But not at all play to win.

It isn't no matter how much you try to spin it as such. You stioll have to run the best content to get the best gear. You cannot buy BIs gear nd ten never step foot in the hardest content. Ther eis nothing to be convinced about because it is NOT pay 2 win as you aren't even winning anything.

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I honestly can't believe this thread is still a thing.

"Sure, you can buy every piece of gear, gold, title, mount, achievement, pet and reward in the game; but what are you REALLY winning?"

Get outta here, you can buy literally anything with the WoW token; If that's not pay to win then nothing is. By saying that you have to actually have an otherwise unobtainable advantage over a player for it to be P2W, you are justifying Blizzard selling every single object in the game directly for cash as they're all achievable in game.

Give me a few gold caps and a fresh account and I will have it with the best gear and mounts you can possibly obtain within a week, and I will have been afk for 99% of it.

No you cam't becauser you cannot buy BIS gear. You still have to run the raid and you still have RNG to deal with. So no y0u literally cannot buy anything in game. Get out of here with repeating the same lie.

[NotAvry]

Its most deffinetly pay to win. The options are endless and instead of doing something about the bots, blizzard just becomes the new seller with the token. But you can choose to play the game without cheating if you want to.

[DechCJC]

No you cam't becauser you cannot buy BIS gear. You still have to run the raid and you still have RNG to deal with. So no y0u literally cannot buy anything in game. Get out of here with repeating the same lie.

Sounds like P2W with extra steps to me.

[rhorle]

*Your honor I wasn't technically selling drugs to kids , I was just selling the full premade do-it-yourself kit that created the finished product if you pushed 2 buttons* The level of mental gymnastics on blizz shills are amazing.

A few years ago my state legalized marijuana. There were no stores able to sell it for almost year to get licensed and whatever according to the law. You were able to gift it to someone though or possess it. So someone was selling t-shirts that came with a "free gift". They didn't get charged with anything because it was a "gray area" as the law was concerned.

It isn't mental gymnastics to call the token what it is. A cash transaction for gold. The ones doing the mental gymnastics are the ones that have to expand it to the indirect transactions that sometimes happen, happen at a later date, and sometimes isn't even possible. But that wouldn't allow you to insult someone as a Blizzard shill, would it?

[Twdft]

, you can buy literally anything with the WoW token; If that's not pay to win then nothing is.

Is buying flasks, food and enchantments pay to win?

[DechCJC]

Is buying flasks, food and enchantments pay to win?

I mean, if you bought the gold to buy the flasks… sort of? Weird example though. Not that relevant.

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If ya'll think p2w is so unfair maybe stop neglecting irl so much and farm more money so you can afford all those sexy boosts and carries?

Just stop being poor its so easy.

It’s not about whether or not people agree with it, it’s about if it’s a term that we can fairly use to define modern WoW.

[Relapses]

It’s not about whether or not people agree with it, it’s about if it’s a term that we can fairly use to define modern WoW.

You said it yourself on the last page -- this isn't a modern WoW problem. It's been a thing from the beginning. This is a "you can use real world capital to get advantages in a virtual world" problem. At best, your critique is that Blizzard is getting a cut of some of that sweet capitalist action but can you blame them? We do, after all, live in a society.

[DechCJC]

You said it yourself on the last page -- this isn't a modern WoW problem. It's been a thing from the beginning. This is a "you can use real world capital to get advantages in a virtual world" problem. At best, your critique is that Blizzard is getting a cut of some of that sweet capitalist action but can you blame them? We do, after all, live in a society.

I don’t blame them in the slightest. It’s a smart move. I’m saying that the game went from being P2W if you want to dodge some bullets, to just P2W; I'm not calling them immoral or saying that it's good or bad for the game.

[Twdft]

I mean, if you bought the gold to buy the flasks… sort of? Weird example though. Not that relevant.

I think it is relevant. My point here is that everything you can buy to increase your chars power is bought from other players. Someone took time out of their day to level alchemy and craft a flask to sell. Someone else gathered a couple other people and carries through m+. None of that is sold by Blizzard and if the players stop offering their services you can't get a flask or carry no matter how much money you throw at Blizzard. Even the gold you buy via Blizzard was farmed by another player. So if anyone is saying wow token is p2w then every single gold transaction in the game is p2w.

And I agree.

It is p2w but in my opinion of the acceptable kind, since I can't get anything (well almost, level boost crosses the line) by throwing money at Blizzard that isn't first achieved by other players. It's a far cry from other games were you can directly buy player power in the shop and I hope Blizzard will never go there.

[Relapses]

I don’t blame them in the slightest. It’s a smart move. I’m saying that the game went from being P2W if you want to dodge some bullets, to just P2W; I'm not calling them immoral or saying that it's good or bad for the game.

I prefer simple language. If you want to say the game is P2W now then say the game has always been P2W.

I say this mostly so you can realize that your assertion is wrong but I doubt I'll get anywhere so just continue thinking what you want to think.

[kaminaris]

I don’t blame them in the slightest. It’s a smart move. I’m saying that the game went from being P2W if you want to dodge some bullets, to just P2W; I'm not calling them immoral or saying that it's good or bad for the game.

You didn't really need to dodge any bullets. Explosion of boosting is direct result of game design decisions, not token, not tcg, not anything related to capitalism.
Its the amount of hard content/limited time rewards(fomo) and lacking the alternative means to progress your character.

[Raelbo]

Of course it's p2w there's a lot of copium being passed around in this thread..

Yeah that must be it. I mean there is just no way that intelligent people could possibly come up with a well reasoned argument for why it isn't. /s


Seriously, if you think WoW is p2w you're simply demonstrating your own ignorance of what p2w actually is and of how the wow token works. And given how much has been said about those things, there really is no excuse for continuing to cling to such a point of view.

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If obtaining lots of gold is a semi-competetiveplaystyle that is considered "winning" = buying token is considered p2w.

Sigh. I tire of repeating the rebuttal to this nonsense that you either aren't reading, or are purposely evading:

As long as the gold in question is acquired from other players as opposed to the game itself, it cannot be p2w. It might look similar in some ways to p2w, but it is something else entirely.

Since you clearly dont want to answer the question, you probably already know the real answer to this. You buy a currency in wow for real money, use that to obtain advantages in game. p2w.

Lol. Did you even read what I said? Of course I know what the answer is. I am not answering your question because you're asking the wrong question. The answer you want me to give does not prove what you want it to prove. So I am saving us both the hassle and cutting to the chase. (if this was a television legal drama, when you ask that question, I'd respond with "objection, irrelevant" and the judge would reply, "sustained")

p2w, as per the generally accepted definition of the term, requires more than simply gaining some nebulous advantage. It requires that said advantage is both necessary to be competitive and is unobtainable without spending the money or an inordinate amount of time and effort in the game. Your abject refusal over weeks to even engage on this point is telling.

[lolmmofuture]

yes lol

100%

10/char

[crusadernero]

Yeah that must be it. I mean there is just no way that intelligent people could possibly come up with a well reasoned for why it isn't. /s


Seriously, if you think WoW is p2w you're simply demonstrating your own ignorance of what p2w actually is and of how the wow token works. And given how much has been said about those things, there really is no excuse for continuing to cling to such an ignorant point of view.

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Sigh. I tire of repeating the rebuttal to this nonsense that you either aren't reading, or are purposely evading:

As long as the gold in question is acquired from other players as opposed to the game itself, it cannot be p2w. It might look similar in some ways to p2w, but it is something else entirely.



Lol. Did you even read what I said? Of course I know what the answer is. I am not answering your question because you're asking the wrong question.

p2w, as per the generally accepted definition of the term, requires more than simply gaining some nebulous advantage. It requires that said advantage is both necessary to be competitive and is unobtainable without spending the money or an inordinate amount of time and effort in the game. Your abject refusal over weeks to even engage on this point is telling.

Theres no reason to engage on this point. You are the one that keeps going on and on about that the token is just fine in wow. It might not be the sole reason for the rampant boosting & carries in retail wow, but it surley plays a big part in it.

If the token was in classic/BC, dont you think the game would literally be filled with carries & boost spams for raids?

[Raelbo]

Theres no reason to engage on this point.

No reason to engage on what the actual definition of p2w is...when the topic is: Is WoW p2w? LOL! No wonder you're unable to put together a proper argument, because you don't even understand what the discussion is about.

You are the one that keeps going on and on about that the token is just fine in wow.

No, not really. I have simply been taking on points that are being made with which I disagree.

It might not be the sole reason for the rampant boosting & carries in retail wow, but it surley plays a big part in it.

You have consistently failed to substantiate that position though. It stands to reason that the token plays a part in the "rampant boosting and carries in retail". But how much of a role is purely speculative on your part, and IMO you're massively overestimating the impact it actually has.

The problem with the logic of your argument is that you're trying to extend the fact that it is possible that *any* player *can* buy tokens and thus be able to access these services from other players, to the idea that *every* player *will* do so. But it is patently obvious that this simply does not hold.

If the token was in classic/BC, dont you think the game would literally be filled with carries & boost spams for raids?

No, I don't. And the proof is in the fact that it isn't in those versions of the game already. The mere fact that tokens don't exist in classic is hardly an obstacle against trading boosts for gold via tokens. It would be a simple enough matter to trade gold with characters in retail in exchange for a boost in classic.

The real reason why boosting barely happens in classic/bc is that those versions of the game simply don't have the type of content that drives the demand for boosts - an argument that has already been made here, but for some reason you choose to reject.

[crusadernero]

No reason to engage on what the actual definition of p2w is...when the topic is: Is WoW p2w? LOL! No wonder you're unable to put together a proper argument, because you don't even understand what the discussion is about.



No, not really. I have simply been taking on points that are being made with which I disagree.



You have consistently failed to substantiate that position though. It stands to reason that the token plays a part in the "rampant boosting and carries in retail". But how much of a role is purely speculative on your part, and IMO you're massively overestimating the impact it actually has.

The problem with the logic of your argument is that you're trying to extend the fact that it is possible that *any* player *can* buy tokens and thus be able to access these services from other players, to the idea that *every* player *will* do so. But it is patently obvious that this simply does not hold.



No, I don't. And the proof is in the fact that it isn't in those versions of the game already. The mere fact that tokens don't exist in classic is hardly an obstacle against trading boosts for gold via tokens. It would be a simple enough matter to trade gold with characters in retail in exchange for a boost in classic.

The real reason why boosting barely happens in classic/bc is that those versions of the game simply don't have the type of content that drives the demand for boosts - an argument that has already been made here, but for some reason you choose to reject.

Im not directly wrong, and neither are you. The difference is that you prefer p2w options to excist in the game (albeit its not an obvious p2w system), while I prefer that it would never have been in the game cause it clearly plays a part in the boosting & carrie meta in retail wow.

You are fine with a MMORPG that have features within the game that devalues everything that makes a MMORPG a MMORPG, while im not.

Personal preference I suppose.

[Raelbo]

Im not directly wrong, and neither are you. The difference is that you prefer p2w options to excist in the game (albeit its not an obvious p2w system), while I prefer that it would never have been in the game cause it clearly plays a part in the boosting & carrie meta in retail wow.

You are wrong in your argument that the token is p2w. p2w has an accepted definition against which the token simply does not qualify. So no, I don't have any desire to see p2w options exist in the game. I am fine with tokens though because I recognise that they are not p2w.

Does the token have some elements that are similar to p2w? Sure. Are you entitled to prefer that the game does not have such elements? Sure. But again, I think you are operating under several misconceptions about what the token actually does and it affects the game in reality and that, as a result, a lot the things you want to blame on the token have nothing to do with it. In essence, you have turned the token into a scapegoat for many ills in the game, both real and imagined.

You are fine with a MMORPG that have features within the game that devalues everything that makes a MMORPG a MMORPG, while im not.

No I am not, and to suggest as such is a strawman argument. I simply disagree with your assertion that the token devalues "everything that makes a MMORPG a MMORPG". I see the token as something neutral. It can interact with phenomena in-game, but it doesn't tend to drive them.

For example: In an environment in which boosting is rampant, the token will be used. But the token doesn't cause the boosting. If you take the token away, boosting will still happen.

[rhorle]

You are fine with a MMORPG that have features within the game that devalues everything that makes a MMORPG a MMORPG, while im not.

What feature, that makes a mmorpg a mmorpg, is devalued by the token existing?

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Literally everything associated with gold? So everything?

Gold is a defining feature of a MMORPG? So if gold didn't exist the game wouldn't be considered an MMORPG?