I think content designed for everyone can't succeed

[sweetbabygang]

Oh, so by "woke" you mean "normal policies we have seen for decades in developed nations". What a hot take.

They're only normal to you if you're part of the radical left.

The program was upheld when evidence was presented in court that those businesses were disproportionately affected negatively

What could that evidence have been? Did only businesses led by women and ethnic minorities have to shut down? Straight, white men were allowed to have their businesses open?

Only if you're part of a cult can you believe that.

[NineSpine]

"I don't like M+ so it doesn't count"

Neither one is solo content so this entire argument is retarded. That a BC heroic is """easier""" than low end mythic+ for a group, doesn't make it solo-friendly, because you still can't do them solo.

Did they replace the standard endgame model of being able to run fixed-difficulty dungeons for currency to buy gear away? Yes. Did they replace it with M+, which does not have a fixed difficulty, does not give currency, and relies on a gameplay model that is much more intensive than the old way of doing dungeons? Yes.

Those are facts. I'm not telling you that you have to hate M+ or that M+ is bad or whatever. I'm stating facts about how the design of the game has changed. I never even brought up TBC. I'm not the one that raised the comparison.

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They're only normal to you if you're part of the radical left.

What could that evidence have been? Did only businesses led by women and ethnic minorities have to shut down? Straight, white men were allowed to have their businesses open?

Only if you're part of a cult can you believe that.

This wasn't the first or only program to help businesses. It was *one* of them, and there is ample evidence that the other programs skewed wildly, unreasonably against the types of businesses this program prioritized.

A University of Michigan study found that in May 2020, less than 0.5% of Black business owners reported they had received COVID-19 aid from the government, compared with 9% of non-Black business owners:
https://news.umich.edu/black-busines...virus-support/

According to data from the National Bureau of Economic Research, African American businesses saw a 41% drop in business activity from February until April, Latino businesses saw a 32% drop, and Asian businesses dropped by 26%. Female-owned businesses saw a similarly disproportionate effect with a 25% decrease in business activity. That is in contrast to a 17% decrease white business owners have faced.
https://www.nber.org/system/files/wo...462/w27462.pdf

So the existing programs had wildly underserved these communities in favor of helping other communities, despite the fact that COVID had disproportionately impacted minority owned businesses. But again, don't let any inconvenient things like "facts" and "reality" get in the way of your terminally online grievance disorder. This program was meant to rectify a failure to help these groups already, and the idea that we shouldn't target programs at the people who most need them because it is going to hurt your feelings is delusional.

[Hitei]

Did they replace the standard endgame model of being able to run fixed-difficulty dungeons for currency to buy gear away? Yes. Did they replace it with M+, which does not have a fixed difficulty, does not give currency, and relies on a gameplay model that is much more intensive than the old way of doing dungeons? Yes.

Those are facts. I'm not telling you that you have to hate M+ or that M+ is bad or whatever. I'm stating facts about how the design of the game has changed. I never even brought up TBC. I'm not the one that raised the comparison.

They are irrelevant facts. You may have not brought up M+ but you immediately deflected the earlier question of "How far are you getting as a solo player in TBC classic?" with: "Well there's group content, reps, professions, and group content."

[sweetbabygang]

According to data from the National Bureau of Economic Research, African American businesses saw a 41% drop in business activity from February until April, Latino businesses saw a 32% drop, and Asian businesses dropped by 26%. Female-owned businesses saw a similarly disproportionate effect with a 25% decrease in business activity. That is in contrast to a 17% decrease white business owners have faced.

Them seeing a bigger drop in business activity means what exactly? Do you think people boycotted them because of their skin color or genitals? All of a sudden because of COVID?

[BigToast]

"I think content designed for everyone can't succeed"

Yet somehow this 17 year old game keeps on truckin along...

[NineSpine]

Them seeing a bigger drop in business activity means what exactly? Do you think people boycotted them because of their skin color or genitals? All of a sudden because of COVID?

This is exactly what terminally online grievance disorder looks like: When confronted with simple facts, you descend into some weird tirade that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. This has nothing to do with why their business dropped more. It has to do with the simple fact that the other programs failed to provide support to these communities despite them getting hit harder. Period. End of story.

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They are irrelevant facts. You may have not brought up M+ but you immediately deflected the earlier question of "How far are you getting as a solo player in TBC classic?" with: "Well there's group content, reps, professions, and group content."

Cool, you don't like how I am using the word solo even though I stated how I was using it and made it clear what I meant by it. You win the pedantic-word-game that you invented for the sake of being argumentative and condescending. Congratulations, you have really advanced the conversation.

[sweetbabygang]

This is exactly what terminally online grievance disorder looks like: When confronted with simple facts, you descend into some weird tirade that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. This has nothing to do with why their business dropped more. It has to do with the simple fact that the other programs failed to provide support to these communities despite them getting hit harder. Period. End of story.

You're the one avoiding the question, and my question is relevant. There is no discrimination based on sex or race when it comes to businesses making business during COVID restrictions. Nobody decides to "not buy the thing" because the owner is a woman or black.

So if these businesses under female or black leadership are struggling more in times of COVID, maybe it's cause they are less capable. Maybe it's cause they are offering products, that are less important to people in times of a crisis.

Maybe black people are more likely to lead companies that sell products like wigs, and people don't care too much about wigs now.

Maybe women are more likely to lead companies that sell services like having your nails done and people now don't care about that too much.

Here in Germany, barber shops needed to be closed for a while because of the close contact, while supermarkets were allowed to be open. Maybe more women are in leading positions in barber shops than in supermarkets?`

No, it must be because people look up whether a business is led by a person with a vagina and then boycott it.

[NineSpine]

You're the one avoiding the question, and my question is relevant. There is no discrimination based on sex or race when it comes to businesses making business during COVID restrictions.

This is very simple:

1. Minority owned businesses were hit harder than non-minority owned businesses during COVID. This is a fact I backed up with a citation.
2. Existing programs skewed against minority owned businesses and gave far more support to non-minority owned businesses. This is a fact I backed up with a citation.
3. It is reasonable, based on those facts, to have a program that rectifies that failure of previous programs by targeting the people the previous programs failed.

I'm very sorry that the reality here is a lot simpler and more reasonable than the narrative you convinced yourself of in order to fuel your desire to be outraged about things, but the real world does not conform to your desire to be mad about things.

[sweetbabygang]

1. Minority owned businesses were hit harder than non-minority owned businesses during COVID. This is a fact I backed up with a citation.

Why would they? Use your brain.

[NineSpine]

Why would they? Use your brain.

Well, the study that I already provided you cites a few reasons, including that the industries hit hardest are more likely to have minority ownership and minority owned businesses are more likely to be in cities and cities were also hit harder. I'm sure there are other reasons, but the reason is ultimately immaterial. They were hit harder, they were helped less, and it is reasonable to rectify that injustice with a program targeted at them.

You also know it is reasonable, and thats why you are flailing around trying to elicit a response out of me that you can argue with.

[sweetbabygang]

Well, the study that I already provided you cites a few reasons, including that the industries hit hardest are more likely to have minority ownership and minority owned businesses are more likely to be in cities and cities were also hit harder.

There you go. It's not about whether a business is led by a black person or a woman. It's about an entire industry. In that industry, there are also men, and white people leading such businesses. So why do you prioritize women and non-white people?

It's not about skin color or genitals. It's about what business you chose to lead. So offer help to those kind of businesses, independent of skin color or genitals.

[NineSpine]

There you go. It's not about whether a business is led by a black person or a woman. It's about an entire industry. In that industry, there are also men, and white people leading such businesses. So why do you prioritize women and non-white people?

It's not about skin color or genitals. It's about what business you chose to lead. So offer help to those kind of businesses, independent of skin color or genitals.

They are prioritized because the previous programs skewed against them despite them getting hit harder. You can't just isolate each fact and make a cute little reason we should ignore it. The facts go together to lead to the conclusion: They were hit harder, they were helped less, therefore we should target them for help to rectify that.

[Leer]

"I think content designed for everyone can't succeed"

Yet somehow this 17 year old game keeps on truckin along...

To be fair the idea of getting everyone to do all the content repeatedly is rather new. I think the issue comes from locking rewards high end players want behind trivial content. The recent patch really improved things to be honest but it still feels rather excessive.

Would anyone honestly of cared so much about grinding if it wasn't required for raids, mythic plus, and pvp?

[sweetbabygang]

They are prioritized because the previous programs skewed against them despite them getting hit harder.

Who? Women and blacks? Then you are accusing the government of discriminating against businesses based on whether the owner of the company has a vagina or dark skin color. Why would they do that? How do you see that happening?

You have to be a member of a cult to believe that.

[Theangryone]

I’ve always agreed with this, I think it’s a bigger problem than people realise. Not to say that it’s one of the larger issues, but it does exist.

So you believe that when WoW has at its highest, it was designed for a niche group and not everyone? And you also believe that since Wrath, content has been consistently designed for the widest possible audience?

[NineSpine]

Who? Women and blacks? Then you are accusing the government of discriminating against businesses based on whether the owner of the company has a vagina or dark skin color. Why would they do that? How do you see that happening?

You have to be a member of a cult to believe that.

Once again:

1. Minority owned businesses were hit harder by the pandemic.
2. Despite this, the existing programs actually favored non-minority owned businesses and provided thirty times as much support to them.
3. Therefore, it is reasonable to institute a program to correct this by providing support to the people who the other programs left behind.

I already provided the data for this in two different sources. Your inability to cope with this, because being angry and outraged is more important to you than facts and reality, is becoming clearer with every post.

[DechCJC]

So you believe that when WoW has at its highest, it was designed for a niche group and not everyone? And you also believe that since Wrath, content has been consistently designed for the widest possible audience?

My point is that when you design a game to appeal to everyone, the game goes from being exceptional for a few to mostly mediocre for nearly all.

If there is no clear goal in mind, the quality tends to suffer for everyone as compromises are made to help make others happy. This can be seen with the conflict between PvE and PvP content as an example.

Im not saying it’s a good move for Blizzard, just that it comes with its own problems.

[NineSpine]

My point is that when you design a game to appeal to everyone, the game goes from being exceptional for a few to mostly mediocre for nearly all.

If there is no clear goal in mind, the quality tends to suffer for everyone as compromises are made to help make others happy. This can be seen with the conflict between PvE and PvP content as an example.

Im not saying it’s a good move for Blizzard, just that it comes with its own problems.

Even putting aside that there are equivalent dangers of going to far in the other direction, the issue is significantly more nuanced than that. An MMO, which is supposed to be a hobby by itself and represents a large online world, needs to be multi-faceted in order to feel as large and engaging as is required to make those principles work. The existence of parts of the game someone doesn't engage with still have value to that person. Knowing it is there and seeing how it impacts the game world and the community matters. A simple example is cosmetic rewards for extreme challenges. Those aren't only valuable to the people with them. Seeing them in the world creates a sense of wonder for other players. Back during WoTLK I got the 100 mount achievement, which was pretty rare at the time. I got plenty of messages from people who weren't interested in mount collecting who wanted to know what it was, where it came from, or just to say "THAT'S AWESOME!"

[Paperfox]

My point is that when you design a game to appeal to everyone, the game goes from being exceptional for a few to mostly mediocre for nearly all.

If there is no clear goal in mind, the quality tends to suffer for everyone as compromises are made to help make others happy. This can be seen with the conflict between PvE and PvP content as an example.

Im not saying it’s a good move for Blizzard, just that it comes with its own problems.

Why is it that you can't do both? Look at Honda and Acura, if you want a regular Honda, you don't go to an Acura dealership - and vice versa.

Surely [name of world class boxer] gets satisfaction from winning a fight against someone who is their peer, and not against someone who can barely get into the ring.

[Leer]

So you believe that when WoW has at its highest, it was designed for a niche group and not everyone? And you also believe that since Wrath, content has been consistently designed for the widest possible audience?

I don't think it was... in rather they had a lot of content for different audiences but they didn't rely on more advanced players grinding starting content as constantly.