To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[NineSpine]

I mean, opinions? But one can't argue that M+ was WoW's biggest modern success in terms of new design systems. Because it works, and it works brilliantly for what it wants to achieve. Your bad experiences do not change that; I know it's cliche, but play with people you know and like and suddenly there's no toxicity involved. The timer plays a huge role too: it prevents people from trying to hard-force it, because that too can (and will) cause frustration. The timer is merely an indication if you're good enough to be on a given level; if you can't beat it, you're not. The onus of finding people who you enjoy playing with is on you and has nothing to do with M+ design - people can be toxic in all kinds of activities, even the most casual ones.

In terms of appeasing the increasingly niche audience? Sure, then we can call it a success.

I don't want to play M+ because I find the design terrible and frustrating. Would I like running a dungeon with modifiers? Sure. Do I want to speed run them one after the other ad nauseam, with no choices which one I am running, in a practically infinite scaling system that doles out is best rewards with weekly RNG? Abso-fucking-lutely not, and neither do any of my friends. Well that isn't true, I have a couple of friends that like to run them, but they turn into toxic dickheads when they run it so that isn't very fun. It brings out the worst in people and is no longer a fun activity to do with friends. We can't bullshit and have a good time. It';s just screaming "GO GO GO GO GO WHY IS YOUR TALENT WRONG WTF WHY DID YOU DIE OMG THE RUN IS FUCKED NOW!" No thank you. I want to play the game with my friends that are worse than me and my friends the are better than me and still have fun, not have us all pushed into our little corners where playing together is discouraged.

You are dodging the issue entirely. FF14 threads this needle just fine. There is content for everyone, top to bottom, nobody is left out. WoW used to be like that too.

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That's bollocks. I'm a co-founder of a F&F guild that helps casual players get curves and keymasters - and there are plenty of places like that. But you have to make an effort and find a right place for yourself, instead of signing to a random group and expecting all will be roses when you do bad job. There are dozens of guilds full of players who are more than happy to help new and inexperienced players get gear and get better, but like I've said: the onus is on you to find them. If you can't be arsed, what do you exactly expect? That every random player you meet will be a carebear?

What part of "There is no place for us" do you not understand? I hit 60 and within a week of very casual play I had out geared EVERYTHING I LIKE DOING.

Telling me to go dig out people I don't know and don't want to play with so they can help me play content I don't want to do is such a ridiculous solution to that problem.

[Tyris Flare]

In terms of appeasing the increasingly niche audience? Sure, then we can call it a success.

I don't want to play M+ because I find the design terrible and frustrating. Would I like running a dungeon with modifiers? Sure. Do I want to speed run them one after the other ad nauseam, with no choices which one I am running, in a practically infinite scaling system that doles out is best rewards with weekly RNG? Abso-fucking-lutely not, and neither do any of my friends. Well that isn't true, I have a couple of friends that like to run them, but they turn into toxic dickheads when they run it so that isn't very fun. It brings out the worst in people and is no longer a fun activity to do with friends. We can't bullshit and have a good time. It';s just screaming "GO GO GO GO GO WHY IS YOUR TALENT WRONG WTF WHY DID YOU DIE OMG THE RUN IS FUCKED NOW!" No thank you. I want to play the game with my friends that are worse than me and my friends the are better than me and still have fun, not have us all pushed into our little corners where playing together is discouraged.

You are dodging the issue entirely. FF14 threads this needle just fine. There is content for everyone, top to bottom, nobody is left out. WoW used to be like that too.

So what is the criticism? That there shouldn't be a vault? That it should be easy enough that talents and skill don't matter?

[Rageonit]

The existence of game modes for casuals isn't enough. The game has to feel rewarding for casual players. As it stands, the game rubs lesser players' noses in their own inadequacy. The game clearly sends these players the message that they shouldn't be enjoying themselves much because they aren't good enough to deserve that.
If you think this is casuals feeling entitled, well, what can I say? Customers not buying a product that doesn't do it for them can be spun as "entitlement", but that's clearly not a useful way to approach game design, or business in general.

I'd argue the game is already catering a lot towards casual players. Go check vault item level rewards for doing a 2+ - which is not a tough task to complete. The biggest problem of casual players is, in my experience, being unable to find the right place to be - not getting upgrades.

[NineSpine]

But M+ didn't replace anything. It exists as an alternative path to raiding to get gear. (And if neither of those are your bag there's PvP and Korthia grinding instead.) You can use it to supplement raid gear or you can continue pushing for rewards related to the activity of M+. If anything, the argument should be that M+ helps smooth the gaps between different raid difficulties... something that prior to its implementation that the game very much lacked. Is your argument simply that you feel random Heroics aren't rewarding enough when compared to M+?

I don't have anything to say because you flat out ignored what you were responding to. I'm not going to repeat myself. I made my argument crystal clear and I'm exhausted with your constant straw men.

[chiddie]

different rent , different wage. they have something else universal health care

https://borgenproject.org/five-facts...ving-in-japan/

. However, the United States has a staggering 50.64% higher rent than Japan does, and restaurant prices in the United States are 44.77% higher than in Japan. According to the Independent, the United States slightly edges out Japan in terms of living expenses. The cost of living in Japan is ranked 17th in the world, while the United States is ranked 15th.

On a side note I have yet to understand why eating in the US has such high costs. I’m Italian and every time I go to the US for vacation food takes at least half of my budget. Really unbelievable prices (not to talk about mandatory tips but that’s another story).

[NineSpine]

So what is the criticism? That there shouldn't be a vault? That it should be easy enough that talents and skill don't matter?

The vault is straight garbage for sure.

The criticism is that I like running dungeons, but I don't like M+, and dungeons used to be a core endgame activity for me and for a ton of other people.

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I'd argue the game is already catering a lot towards casual players. Go check vault item level rewards for doing a 2+ - which is not a tough task to complete. The biggest problem of casual players is, in my experience, being unable to find the right place to be - not getting upgrades.

How is it catering to casual players to render virtually all casual content obsolete?

[Rageonit]

I have a couple of friends that like to run them, but they turn into toxic dickheads when they run it so that isn't very fun.

Sorry to say this, but judging from that above the game is not your problem. Your friends are.

[niztheundead87]

On a side note I have yet to understand why eating in the US has such high costs. I’m Italian and every time I go to the US for vacation food takes at least half of my budget. Really unbelievable prices (not to talk about mandatory tips but that’s another story).

must be the tipping lol

[Tyris Flare]

The vault is straight garbage for sure.

The criticism is that I like running dungeons, but I don't like M+, and dungeons used to be a core endgame activity for me and for a ton of other people.

So I agree that the Vault is stupid, I would personally rather just farm the items with valor and upgrade them all the way. Kill something - get reward rather than wait for Tuesdays.

But beyond that, what about m+ is different? They are still dungeons, and you said affixes and the concept of scaling difficulty are fine. So I don't understand the problem? If the vault was changed would you like it?

[NineSpine]

Sorry to say this, but judging from that above the game is not your problem. Your friends are.

Great, so I should go seek out strangers I don't want to play with to do content I don't enjoy instead. Wonderful.

[Rageonit]

Great, so I should go seek out strangers I don't want to play with to do content I don't enjoy instead. Wonderful.

I mean, I'm nicer to strangers that your friends are to you. Should ring some bells man.

[NineSpine]

So I agree that the Vault is stupid, I would personally rather just farm the items with valor and upgrade them all the way. Kill something - get reward rather than wait for Tuesdays.

But beyond that, what about m+ is different? They are still dungeons, and you said affixes and the concept of scaling difficulty are fine. So I don't understand the problem? If the vault was changed would you like it?

What I like about M+:
I like dungeons
Affixes are cool

What I don't like:
The big reward coming from the vault
Timers
Infinite scaling
Not getting to choose the dungeons because of the key system

The cons are way more important than the pros there.

[Kokolums]

Everytime I see this thread, I think of this.

[NineSpine]

I mean, I'm nicer to strangers that your friends are to you. Should ring some bells man.

Like three posts ago you were spewing toxic bullshit about how other people need to know their place. Spare me.

[Tyris Flare]

What I like about M+:
I like dungeons
Affixes are cool

What I don't like:
The big reward coming from the vault
Timers
Infinite scaling
Not getting to choose the dungeons because of the key system

The cons are way more important than the pros there.

Being able to pick the key would be nice.

What is the issue with infinite scaling? Rewards don't scale infinity so it's not like you have to do +25s for anything.

[NineSpine]

Being able to pick the key would be nice.

What is the issue with infinite scaling? Rewards don't scale infinity so it's not like you have to do +25s for anything.

It snuffs out any sense of getting more powerful as you gear up. It turns gearing into an unrewarding treadmill rather than a feeling of power progression.

[ercarp]

Why hasn't this obvious bait thread been closed yet?

[Tyris Flare]

It snuffs out any sense of getting more powerful as you gear up. It turns gearing into an unrewarding treadmill rather than a feeling of power progression.

I guess I don't get that. Since you never need to do anything above 15s, there is huge sense of progression. You can mass pull weekly keys and blow everything up with impunity now if you wanted to.

But for players who want a challenge (with no reward), you can keep pushing. This seems like the perfect solution to cater to all types of players.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's graph of revenue, an unidentified portion of which is obviously sub numbers. Not only does that not tell us anything about sub numbers, but its also the numbers for two games and the revenue is clearly peaking on expansion years which we expect because of box sales.

You can go through each quarter to compare how the expan launches effect income and then use the income in non expan quarters to gauge sub growth.

For example. In 2018 storm bloods launch put the income up to 8.0 which then Fell continuously every quarter to 6.3 through out 2019 which you wouldn’t see if subs were going up through out the year.

And ya it counts two games every investor report square puts out does so it’s not like it’s a sudden unreliable variable.

But again if we can’t go off there investor reports what are you basing every year having sub growth off of?

[NineSpine]

I guess I don't get that. Since you never need to do anything above 15s, there is huge sense of progression. You can mass pull weekly keys and blow everything up with impunity now if you wanted to.

When you go to a higher key all you are doing is negating the increase in power you got from the lower keys.

I activity is not fun for me in the first place, and it is certainly not fun enough to run until I am pounding 15 keys.