With Blizz Giving Us What We Are Asking For, Is it Time for 10-Man?

[kaminaris]

Ah yes, because people don't have real life issues and leave the raid roster. 30+ year olds often can't sit down every week for 12+ hours.
And again, no. My guild has literally been around for 15+ years and cleared all content at the highest difficulty (save 3 tiers) so we're pretty well liked.

also 7/30 is "almost half a squad" now? You come off as stupid, but not *this* stupid.

Right, people have so much shit to do in real life they rotate each tier so obvious choice is to get into raiding fully knowing they can't dedicate that much amount of time This is pure copium. People leave guilds mostly because they don't like raiding with current crew, there is also a sizable portion that quit because they dont like the game anymore which is still game decisions problem.

Bruh please. What next, you gonna tell me you have 40 people while guilds struggle to keep 22+.

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Indeed, I don't get how people can make out that having more people engaged/participating in mythic raiding would be bad, having less post MoP sure has been

The funny thing is, when two thirds of mythic raiders quit mythic raiding in WoD it was the 20m guilds that suffered the most not the 10m guilds (because they didn't exist anymore) the exodus of players made it so hard to recruit, people complain about the lack of raid tiers in WoD but as an officer I just remember it as the worst time in raiding for recruiting/maintaining a roster (so far) because as people got fed up with 20m and quit it was so hard to find people to replace them. The 25m guilds thought the death of 10m was going to be their salvation but so many ended up breaking up because they couldn't cover their own player turnover, it was a really bad time from a raid organising POV, it was especially bizarre as a former 10m mythic guild to be absorbing what was left of a 25m mythic guild to bolster ranks for 20m, crazy times.

Whole raiding scene collapsed back then. And hardly because entire expansion. Blizzard tried so hard to bribe players to go 25M and even with massive boons people didnt like it. Gee, who could have known when they remove the option people will quit instead

Now blizzard pride doesnt allow them to admit mistake and they would rather sink with ship.

Also people think having less people to recruit is a good thing, why they dont come alliance then

[Kehego]

Right, people have so much shit to do in real life they rotate each tier so obvious choice is to get into raiding fully knowing they can't dedicate that much amount of time This is pure copium. People leave guilds mostly because they don't like raiding with current crew, there is also a sizable portion that quit because they dont like the game anymore which is still game decisions problem.

Bruh please. What next, you gonna tell me you have 40 people while guilds struggle to keep 22+.

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Whole raiding scene collapsed back then. And hardly because entire expansion. Blizzard tried so hard to bribe players to go 25M and even with massive boons people didnt like it. Gee, who could have known when they remove the option people will quit instead

Now blizzard pride doesnt allow them to admit mistake and they would rather sink with ship.

Also people think having less people to recruit is a good thing, why they dont come alliance then

the active roster is 25 people yes

we lost 2 people because my guild raids pacific and they live east coast (myself included)
lost another because he was a student and went to study (still logs in/plays, just doesn't raid)
lost one due to covid (family issues not deaths)

recruited like 6-9 people throughout the tier, keeping an active roster
kicked a DH for being a spaz as well, have enough players that people that do not fit the guild can be kicked.

again, just because noone likes you/your guild doesn't mean your problems are my problems. most of my guild are 30+ and are 10+ year veterans of the game dude, keep trying though, watching you flounder is hilarious.

Like i've literally been in my guild since cataclysm. The gleader/raid leader is the same dude from vanilla. my guild plays other games together, plays classic together, generally like each other.

I see you having a hard time fitting in a guild like mine.


oh right, and I mean 25 raiders. active roster of players including casuals is closer to 50 i guess

[kaminaris]

the active roster is 25 people yes

we lost 2 people because my guild raids pacific and they live east coast (myself included)
lost another because he was a student and went to study (still logs in/plays, just doesn't raid)
lost one due to covid (family issues not deaths)

recruited like 6-9 people throughout the tier, keeping an active roster
kicked a DH for being a spaz as well, have enough players that people that do not fit the guild can be kicked.

again, just because noone likes you/your guild doesn't mean your problems are my problems. most of my guild are 30+ and are 10+ year veterans of the game dude, keep trying though, watching you flounder is hilarious.

Like i've literally been in my guild since cataclysm. The gleader/raid leader is the same dude from vanilla. my guild plays other games together, plays classic together, generally like each other.

I see you having a hard time fitting in a guild like mine.

sure thing buddy, your guild is loved thus only your guild loses people due to random irl stuff. While everyone else guild constantly loses people because of dramas.

Tip: yes people sometimes quit because of IRL stuff, just like in every other guild.

[Relapses]

sure thing buddy, your guild is loved thus only your guild loses people due to random irl stuff. While everyone else guild constantly loses people because of dramas.

Tip: yes people sometimes quit because of IRL stuff, just like in every other guild.

Your argument is "my anecdotal experience is more relevant than yours." People leave guilds for all kinds of reasons but you'll have a real hard time arguing that after five expansions of the same exact raid paradigm that "raid size is too big" is one of the top reasons they're leaving.

[Kehego]

Your argument is "my anecdotal experience is more relevant than yours." People leave guilds for all kinds of reasons but you'll have a real hard time arguing that after five expansions of the same exact raid paradigm that "raid size is too big" is one of the top reasons they're leaving.

I could drop the name of my guild but why would I do that? lol
15 years of raiding, faction change, lull during MoP and we're still playing.

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sure thing buddy, your guild is loved thus only your guild loses people due to random irl stuff. While everyone else guild constantly loses people because of dramas.

Tip: yes people sometimes quit because of IRL stuff, just like in every other guild.

Just keep recruiting :^)

When your guild isn't shit you get a lot of applicants.

[Relapses]

I could drop the name of my guild but why would I do that? lol
15 years of raiding, faction change, lull during MoP and we're still playing.

You don't need to. It's all anecdotal -- that's all this discussion ever amounts to. You can go back five years and you'll see @kaminaris making the same exact arguments. I firmly believe Blizzard made the right call switching to 20M and the success of the RWF has a lot to do with that decision.

[Xires]

Same reason I gave up on TBC with managing a 25man raid. It's way too stressful to always make sure to have 25 people, even with several benches and rotations (which causes many issues on its own).

Flex raiding was the best thing they've ever added to the game. It's so wonderful that you don't have to think about that really in normal/heroic. Just have your 2 tanks and 1 healer per 4-5 players and you're good.

That said having 10-man mythic raiding isn't the solution and in many just causes the same headaches and issues as 20-man mythic does. Just make everything flex once the world first is done

No way. lol I don't think you understand just how screwed the fights would be and the balance. Blizz did away with 10 man heroic (now mythic) raiding for a GOOD reason. Many reasons in fact. Give it enough time...and people will want to make the SAME mistakes all over again. Like history repeating itself.

[Relapses]

No way. lol I don't think you understand just how screwed the fights would be and the balance. Blizz did away with 10 man heroic (now mythic) raiding for a GOOD reason. Many reasons in fact. Give it enough time...and people will want to make the SAME mistakes all over again. Like history repeating itself.

We're just two expansions away from Cataclysm Classic. :^)

[kaminaris]

Your argument is "my anecdotal experience is more relevant than yours." People leave guilds for all kinds of reasons but you'll have a real hard time arguing that after five expansions of the same exact raid paradigm that "raid size is too big" is one of the top reasons they're leaving.

What are you talking about? Have you not seen previous pages? You can literally check that data how fast people rotates in random guilds.
What anecdotal experience?

It is that guy who is talking about specific guilds.

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I could drop the name of my guild but why would I do that? lol
15 years of raiding, faction change, lull during MoP and we're still playing.

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Just keep recruiting :^)

When your guild isn't shit you get a lot of applicants.

You still dont understand, its not a problem to eventually recruit people, its the problem you have to recruit them so fast and so often in the first place.
We were like ~200 in legion, whole squad changed twice, from original roster only like 4 remained at the end of expansion.

Guild is nothing without people, just a name.

[Relapses]

What are you talking about? Have you not seen previous pages? You can literally check that data how fast people rotates in random guilds.
What anecdotal experience?

It is that guy who is talking about specific guilds.

And you're the one making generalized statements from anecdotal, completely improvable data. I don't think his anecdotal data is any more relevant than yours but it doesn't matter since your entire argument's premise is impossible to substantiate.

[kaminaris]

And you're the one making generalized statements from anecdotal, completely improvable data. I don't think his anecdotal data is any more relevant than yours but it doesn't matter since your entire argument's premise is impossible to substantiate.

It is you who is arguing against something nobody said, yet again.
His anecdotal experience literally proves my point.

[epigramx]

So to recap the biggest fallacies in here.

1. Some people have no clue about the history of the game itself; 25man guilds were not isolated in 25man instances; they are the ones that were splitting to 2 10mans all the time so when people say "so many people cleared 10man so it was more people" have no clue it was 25man guilds that run 2 10mans each.

2. Some people spam "I know some math therefore your opinion is invalid" but their "equation" is only one variable and incomplete; for instance they say "it's probabilistically easier to recruit for 10man!"; that does the monstrous "mathematical" error to not include the variable 25man often had more demand.

3. They keep saying "it's easier to recruit for 10man"(assuming it's true) not realizing: that that makes their whole argument a non-starter: if you want it easy: you are off topic: this is a hard mode game type: it should stay a) hard b) consistent (2 sizes are imbalanceable) c) complete (game has 12 classes)

[kaminaris]

So to recap the biggest fallacies in here.

1. Some people have no clue about the history of the game itself; 25man guilds were not isolated in 25man instances; they are the ones that were splitting to 2 10mans all the time so when people say "so many people cleared 10man so it was more people" have no clue it was 25man guilds that run 2 10mans each.

You still dont know basic math. Even if every single 25M guild did 10M splits it was still drop in a sea. Calling something "fallacy" just because you dont get it doesn't make it so.

2. Some people spam "I know some math therefore your opinion is invalid" but their "equation" is only one variable and incomplete; for instance they say "it's probabilistically easier to recruit for 10man!"; that does the monstrous "mathematical" error to not include the variable 25man often had more demand.

Basically the same point as first one. Its simply way easier to find 10 people "on same page" than 20, and this is a simple fact. 25 man did not had more "demand" to begin with. And it doesn't change anything in that equation. Any kind of "demand" in that equation is completely irrelevant.

3. They keep saying "it's easier to recruit for 10man"(assuming it's true) not realizing: that that makes their whole argument a non-starter: if you want it easy: you are off topic: this is a hard mode game type: it should stay a) hard b) consistent (2 sizes are imbalanceable) c) complete (game has 12 classes)

Nobody said anything about making things easy, it's irrelevant to discussion.
Keeping up 20man is simply: not fun, tedious (not hard), takes way more HR job (again, tedious) and almost forces you to play with assholes (or if you are very lucky, just people you barely know).
amount of classes doesn't matter, raids still has to be designed with flex in mind, and ceiling is the not the amount of classes because its severely limited by blizzard creativity in first place.

There, debunked everything.

[klaps_05]

Based on the absurd stuff being posted in the community council, you can probably ask for 10 man raiding as well as get it back. Really wish the community council was properly set up rather than the farce it is at the moment.

[Luck4]

Whole raiding scene collapsed back then. And hardly because entire expansion. Blizzard tried so hard to bribe players to go 25M and even with massive boons people didnt like it. Gee, who could have known when they remove the option people will quit instead

it's funny how Blizard keeps boycotting their own game, I mean, people like to choose a villain, like blaming the loss of so many subscribers due to covenants/azerite gear, when in fact it's way deeper than that. Meanwhile, I know many people that quit after 10-man was removed and others that never did CE content due to not liking 20-man size and now play games that require fewer people to master.

People can argue all day long but they can't change the fact that big group content isn't popular, especially when we take new generations and new players into account. Big group content is a relic of the past that, and is just a matter of time before it becomes history.

[Relapses]

Based on the absurd stuff being posted in the community council, you can probably ask for 10 man raiding as well as get it back. Really wish the community council was properly set up rather than the farce it is at the moment.

It's hilarious anybody ever thought it'd be anything more than another version of reddit.

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it's funny how Blizard keeps boycotting their own game, I mean, people like to choose a villain, like blaming the loss of so many subscribers due to covenants/azerite gear, when in fact it's way deeper than that. Meanwhile, I know many people that quit after 10-man was removed and others that never did CE content due to not liking 20-man size and now play games that require fewer people to master.

People can argue all day long but they can't change the fact that big group content isn't popular, especially when we take new generations and new players into account. Big group content is a relic of the past that, and is just a matter of time before it becomes history.

We're sooner to get Cataclysm Classic than see Blizzard remove the only feature their MMO provides that no other game on the market can do. They're not going to throw the enormous exposure provided by the RWF in the dumpster because a few nostalgia-blinded ex-WoW players can't cope with the fact that the video game moved in a direction they don't support.

[epigramx]

[..]

Its simply way easier to find 10

[..]

Nobody said anything about making things easy

[..]

There, debunked everything.

I didn't have to say anything.

[Battlebeard]

Never understood the fun of 10man, Classic just showed why 40man was so amazing feels you have an army, it's an epic feeling

[Luck4]

We're sooner to get Cataclysm Classic than see Blizzard remove the only feature their MMO provides that no other game on the market can do.

I think it's more in line with Blizzard being unable to do challenging content for smaller groups than other companies being incapable of doing challenging content for bigger ones. As you guys said it's harder to make 10-man challenging than it's for 20-man.

They're not going to throw the enormous exposure provided by the RWF in the dumpster because a few nostalgia-blinded ex-WoW players can't cope with the fact that the video game moved in a direction they don't support.

Exposure that barely manages to meet the daily exposure of many other older games. Also, WoW didn't move further, actually, they went backward, the game started with the 40-man format and moved to a 25-man format in TBC. The "twenty-ish" format is the standard for this game since 2.0, the 10-man format never replaced it at any point in time.

But like I said in my previous post, good luck expecting this game to thrive with such a format that's extremely unpopular among the new player's mindsets. No wonder the raid participation is at its lowest as most raiders are composed of people that are...

30+ and are 10+ year veterans

No pull intended, this is also true for my CE guild. Fresh blood is nowhere to be found.

[Kehego]

I think it's more in line with Blizzard being unable to do challenging content for smaller groups than other companies being incapable of doing challenging content for bigger ones. As you guys said it's harder to make 10-man challenging than it's for 20-man.



Exposure that barely manages to meet the daily exposure of many other older games. Also, WoW didn't move further, actually, they went backward, the game started with the 40-man format and moved to a 25-man format in TBC. The "twenty-ish" format is the standard for this game since 2.0, the 10-man format never replaced it at any point in time.

But like I said in my previous post, good luck expecting this game to thrive with such a format that's extremely unpopular among the new player's mindsets. No wonder the raid participation is at its lowest as most raiders are composed of people that are...

No pull intended, this is also true for my CE guild. Fresh blood is nowhere to be found.

its an old ass game. literally only boomers play this