Hard core raiders don't like the answer: but Blizzard is right about Power Infusion.

[Xath]

I can tell you it's definitely not a casual concern, since my guild who haven't even done more than 4/10m seem to not care at all and joke about it.

I suspect it's mainly people who feel hard core but I agree: they are not the most hard core (like top 10 guilds) because those manage feelings.

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You get back your guild becoming better. That's more hard core than wanting something back.

Besides: do not assume people are stupid; they know how PI works (and how you lose).

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Blizzard covered that bad argument in their post. The coder of the warcraftlogs already puts an asterisk next to some logs.

So you already call them "helped by simps" so why do you bother more for your logs than for your guild's progress?

No they didn't. What they did is include number or buffs next to the logs they didn't make them a seperate leader board so if you want to go for leaderboards you still need them. There are logs right now that include 30+ simp abilities between the covs and PI.

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Wat. The current wow leadership is explicitly the leadership of the Elitist Jerks website (now defunct); that site was the most hard core raiding theorycrafting site the game has ever seen; you were banned for not being on topic or even that interesting within minutes.

The solution you propose is already applied by the way; warcraftlogs coder already puts an asterisk next to rankings that had externals; most people that whine about it and know about this mainly want to fool naive people that they are better than they are.

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Nothing kills a boss on its own; those things work additively. You can even remove Bloodlust from all bosses and still kill them if you were "robotically perfect" but that'd be a stupid decision.

A lot of "0.1%" things make easily a "1%" thing and when you wipe at 0.8% during progress after 100 wipes come and tell us it's "useless" to use minor buffs.

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That'd be futile if you want to find "unfairness", since a big crit or two is usually a much bigger determinant of who got "lucky" on logs.

Besides: you can make a weakaura that easily tells you with big letters who got PI.

A big crit isn't going to make a consistent 1k dps difference at the end of the fight PI will for certain specs.

[capri sunset]

No guilds are disbanding over who gets PI on progress, there's no social tension there. The way I see it is that there are people who enjoy logging on farm, and that enjoyment is being affected by external buffs like PI, leading to some burnout. What are we trading that for, though? Because ~imo~ these buffs just aren't interesting enough to exist, there's rarely a decision to make because it's just a 25% haste buff, it's dry.

[M1r4g3]

Oh you'd be surprised. It's a constant complaint of people around the top 50 guilds who are objectively a minority and their progress relatively hard core (e.g. easily 10/10m by now).

Selfishness is core in most humans so it's not an easy thing to drop even for people with good skill in gaming.

I mean that makes no sense, logically the higher up in ranks you go the more organized and min-maxed a guild is, right? So why would a guild like that keep someone who constantly complains about it? They wouldn't, but guess who would? Lower mythic/heroic guilds who don't have to be organized and have massively varying skills between players which is a great breeding ground for egos.

Yes, selfishness is core in most humans, which is why the devs should take that into account when designing the game and its systems rather than expecting people to magically change for the game.

[DechCJC]

Problem as always is that blizzard is talking about something they have no experience about.

Farming raids isnt the most interesting thing, but one thing that makes it slightly more interesting is competing on logs.
Its a competition, and currently, its a rigged race because the only one that runs a chance at a high % log is the one getting the pi's.

But since noone at blizzard are playing the game at that level, they don't have a clue. They relate to their own occasional hc pug where the goal is to beat the boss and thats it. So ofc they wouldnt care who got the pi, as long as the boss is dying everyone is happy right? And thats why they come up with an out of the loop response like that, Bobby Kotik style.

The best solution i see is to simply put a filter and split logs into two cathegorys so that ppl who get pi only gets compared to other players who also got pi. And the rest of the players gets compared to the ppl that didnt get it. They are already filtering out certain adds so they might aswell filter this too.

Sounds like a way to grief though. You know someone’s about to get a sick parse so you PI them and instantly take them out of the race.

[Sorshen]

Only an issue for bad raiders. Not a top issue.

[Gaidax]

I mean that makes no sense, logically the higher up in ranks you go the more organized and min-maxed a guild is, right? So why would a guild like that keep someone who constantly complains about it? They wouldn't, but guess who would? Lower mythic/heroic guilds who don't have to be organized and have massively varying skills between players which is a great breeding ground for egos.

Yes, selfishness is core in most humans, which is why the devs should take that into account when designing the game and its systems rather than expecting people to magically change for the game.

You aren't going to be tossing aside good players over this.

Maybe it's a privilege top 50 guild can allow themselves, but for someone like us at w350? If you'd see our last 10 applications we got, it's almost non-stop meme parade. Like you have people who bloody don't even bother answering basic questions with more than 1-2 words - we even added "why say lot word" guy as an emote to our Discord over this, because we use it so much there. If we get maybe 2 decent applicants over one month that are not insta-decline, that's a good month.

I really think this thread is pointless AF, people who are nowhere near "hardcore raiders" discussing what "hardcore raiders" think based on whatever BS they conjured about this "hardcore raiding" in their heads. You don't even understand how these so-called "hardcore raiders" and guilds think.


It's like OP, who can't wrap his head around the simple fact that progress is long over and nowadays we have nothing to raid for aside from WCL parsing and that's for months now.

[DechCJC]

Only an issue for bad raiders. Not a top issue.

Lots of high end raiders care about parsing, it’s fun. Especially going for a 100, where you absolutely need every buff possible.

Maybe world first raiders don’t care, but top 100-500? For sure a lot of them do.

[Orwell7]

Parsing and logs?

Let me tell you what can Blizzard do to make the field more even:
disable split runs / gear funneling, put back Master Loot, yes RNG can fuck you up, but it's still more even
disable BoEs (for the first few weeks maybe)


Guilds with infinite time on their hands will parse better in week1-2-3 Mythic, no matter if you got PI from your guildmate or not.
Guilds with infinite gold on their hands will parse better in week1-2-3 Mythic, no matter if you got PI from your guildmate or not.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Its not fun is more the problem. I give it to who it helps most every time. It doesn't make me mad to do so. Because it's the absolute right call. Just like if a healer dies and I can drop form and pop a couple heals to stabilize things.

Imagine if the person that popped lust got the debuff but not the benefit. I doubt every mage/shaman would be fighting about who gets to pop it. Sure, they would figure out who makes the most sense to do it and move on in most cases but I doubt that person would claim that being the funnest moment of raids either.

[Aleksej89]

Damn i gotta admit it never occurred to me some people might be "compete" parsing on farm content.
you gotta be bored out of your mind to do something as meaningless as that.
but to each their own i guess.

[Xath]

Damn i gotta admit it never occurred to me some people might be "compete" parsing on farm content.
you gotta be bored out of your mind to do something as meaningless as that.
but to each their own i guess.

What else are you supposed to do for months while waiting on new content?

[Craaazyyy]

When I was still playing, I had a fair amount of fun micro managing my fairies and PI as holy priest. I specifically got an addon to track others cooldowns usage to line up with them, that's fun and engaging. Too bad you need addons to make buff management fun.

well technically you can probably use your voice to manage that.. like someone should tell you to give them PI or something

[Sorshen]

What else are you supposed to do for months while waiting on new content?

Unsubscribe and play/enjoy something else imo. No point in getting burned out.

I think a lot of needless frustration is generated from people's inability to balance the expectations of "nothing to do" and "this is a chore/too much".

[beratish]

Parsing and logs?

Let me tell you what can Blizzard do to make the field more even:
disable split runs / gear funneling, put back Master Loot, yes RNG can fuck you up, but it's still more even
disable BoEs (for the first few weeks maybe)


Guilds with infinite time on their hands will parse better in week1-2-3 Mythic, no matter if you got PI from your guildmate or not.
Guilds with infinite gold on their hands will parse better in week1-2-3 Mythic, no matter if you got PI from your guildmate or not.

Time doesn't really play into player ability as much as the community would like it to. It is a factor for sure but it is more a factor between world 500 and world 10 rather then your average player and a mythic raider.

[epigramx]

We're done with progression for months already, our only remaining "progression" is WCL and that is a personal challenge.

It's a weak argument and Blizzard covered why. The warcraft logs site already puts an asterisk at rankings showing who has externals.

So effectively those people are telling us they rely on naive people who don't know how warcraftlogs works to show off their skill.

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No they didn't. What they did is include number or buffs next to the logs they didn't make them a seperate leader board

That's nitpicking at best.

[Garymorilix]

Problem as always is that blizzard is talking about something they have no experience about.

Farming raids isnt the most interesting thing, but one thing that makes it slightly more interesting is competing on logs.
Its a competition, and currently, its a rigged race because the only one that runs a chance at a high % log is the one getting the pi's.

But since noone at blizzard are playing the game at that level, they don't have a clue. They relate to their own occasional hc pug where the goal is to beat the boss and thats it. So ofc they wouldnt care who got the pi, as long as the boss is dying everyone is happy right? And thats why they come up with an out of the loop response like that, Bobby Kotik style.

The best solution i see is to simply put a filter and split logs into two cathegorys so that ppl who get pi only gets compared to other players who also got pi. And the rest of the players gets compared to the ppl that didnt get it. They are already filtering out certain adds so they might aswell filter this too.

Alrite, if that is your biggest concern then, why don't you just have your priest PI himself and go from there?

You are obviously on such a level of farm that it wouldn't matter anyway.

So go do that, and compare your weiners accordingly, real grown ups.
Or keep making problems for yourself to be mad about.

[epigramx]

[..] no social tension

[..] enjoyment is being affected by external buffs like PI

Being annoyed about your personal ranking is a psychological issue and inevitably affects the social life of a guild because of the tensions it causes.

Being hard core at gaming may be also about being good at handling your selfishness.

It's also an illogical complain when the wlogs site marks the ranks that got externals.

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why would a guild like that keep someone who constantly complains about it?

That's a strawman argument. I don't think those people are throwing daily childish tantrums in discord audio about it but it's something they bother to write about to Blizzard.

Also the level of the top 10 guilds in this game is extremely different to the top ~50; the first may be god-like at various skills; the latter just great at encounters.

[tomten]

But since noone at blizzard are playing the game at that level, they don't have a clue. They relate to their own occasional hc pug where the goal is to beat the boss and thats it. So ofc they wouldnt care who got the pi, as long as the boss is dying everyone is happy right? And thats why they come up with an out of the loop response like that, Bobby Kotik style.

You somehow missed the boosting drama going on at blizzard? They play at higher level then you and most people in the game...

[epigramx]

Only an issue for bad raiders. Not a top issue.

I agree the top 10 is definitely not giving a fuck. But it's something that is definitely heard by people in relatively high ranks below the cream of the crop.

You can choose to not call them hard core but that's subjective since the majority of other raiders don't have 10/10m yet.

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I really think this thread is pointless AF, people who are nowhere near "hardcore raiders" discussing what "hardcore raiders" think based on whatever BS they conjured about this "hardcore raiding" in their heads. You don't even understand how these so-called "hardcore raiders" and guilds think.


It's like OP, who can't wrap his head around the simple fact that progress is long over and nowadays we have nothing to raid for aside from WCL parsing and that's for months now.

Shouting at people with ad hominem attacks isn't an argument. You have been technically debunked multiple times anyway. The warcraft logs site marks the ranks which have externals so you effectively tell us that you are annoyed because you rely on naive people who don't know how the site works to show off skill to them.

[Swnem]

Right... social tension is good. That is why they removed master loot eh?
Thing is, priests deserve to use their own cooldown.
Nah, they just contradict themselves and you fall like a ducky for everything they say.

For the record, i am someone who often gets PI cause i tend to use 2m CD specs. I still think it's something that should go away, cause it's not something the whole raid can share on. There are clearly better recipients.
If they want a "help the raid" spell, make one that actually helps everyone in the raid, not just one person. Otherwise you might just give PI baseline for the specs that benefit the most. It's dumb.

But hey... it's blizzard. They lost the plot a long time ago. Just another case of the fans having to fight the devs for something that should not be a debate.
No one likes it. Recipients don't like having to need it, priests don't like losing their CD, those that don't get it don't like missing out. But hey... the devs are ok with it. Usual arrogance we came to expect.
This distorting of the original devs of making a game for themselves is still giving rotten fruit. Original devs were in touch with the player base. Current devs are not. That is why making a game for themselves is giving this kind of result. Stop making a game for devs and make a game for the players. You'll find it will work better for you too.