M+ Needs a Queue

[Twdft]

I mean thanks for putting words in there.

Not sure where reform and making changes means killing and it's not a thing anymore. But okay.

I just explained to you how your changes would result in a lot of players to stop raiding which you seem to agree with:

I mean again I don't know why we're concerned with a small population of players. You already had players leave and it gets treated like nothing, but the second we stop and consider mythic raiders leaving it's like every one's hair is on fire.

There might be a language barrier here (I'm German), this discussion feels like talking to a wall.

[Segus1992]

I guess in envisioning this thing the key system would be thrown out. You can only queue for keys that are +/- 2 Difficutlies and completing any - of where you are would count as a third to clear the higher key so you're good for an 8 and if you can complete say 3 6's and time them then you move on. Something like that.

The key system is a very very bad idea and it's built toward abuse of players on players.

Awful idea. The key system is one of the few things added to the game since launch in 2006 that actually promotes being social. If you can't do it, don't. You don't need to do it for any non-social part of the game anyway.

[Evolixe]

Did he say you shouldn't be allowed to form groups?

Yeah right here

I guess in envisioning this thing the key system would be thrown out.

[Miffinat0r]

You're acting as if what "casuals" want and/or need is ever at odds with what "hardcore elitist whateveryouwannacallthem" want or need. You can have both. You just don't play in the same space and that is fine.

But it is--right now WoW as a game is built around power progression. All other content outside of the power progression is largely ignored and given next to no updates because the culture, the development, and the marketing all revolve around power progression.

So when we have that established casual players hit a wall. What's the request? Something to do that's tied to power progression so they can keep up with everyone else. But this is where Hardcore players come in and say you can't do that because what about us. Now the Devs come in and side with the Hardcore players because they themselves are hardcore players, or have personal connections to those players. At launch, the game becomes Draconian in how it deals with these systems.

Subs begin to bleed and WoW after an expansion loses upwards of 45% of active players because a large percentage of players are not having thier needs fufilled. Activision freaks out and begins demanding WoW try and get these people back. Ion comes up with a catch-up mechanic and the cycle repeats. That's WoW. That's where you are right now, and you're worried about the smaller finite players who seem to never leave?

You have a personal problem. Which is that you want to exist in the latter when you are part of the former. You can't not care about improving your gameplay and then also be part of the elite. That will never happen in any game with such structures. And then your proposal to that is to completely restructure the game just so that you like it.

I mean we all have problems, but I guess I have one because I'm posting while I'm bored at work. Not sure what you mean that it will never happen like that FF14 pretty much uses that model quite well. Only 2 modes aren't queable and the best gear from those modes don't wipe out everything below it. WoW on the other hand goes oh no this heroic gear needs to dwarf all gear before it, and Mythic gear even more so! it's literally watching inequality in action just in the virtual world.

What wow needs is more things to do that have nothing to do with raiding or mythic plus but still offer a compelling challenge to the not "hardcore elitist whateveryouwannacallthem" players.

What it definitely doesn't need is even less content of the variations that already exist.

And everyone agrees with this but again the problem comes in at that when they make this content, they often tie to gear that you need to do the content, and in order to get that gear you have to go on the this treadmil which is what you're saying we should develop around. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah right here

Oh so the key system is the grouping and lfg system? Didn't know that. I'll go tell a buddy who's lvl 20 that the group feature he is using is tied to keys.

- - - Updated - - -

Awful idea. The key system is one of the few things added to the game since launch in 2006 that actually promotes being social. If you can't do it, don't. You don't need to do it for any non-social part of the game anyway.

I would argue it doesn't promote being social. It promotes abuse, exclusivity, and reason for players to try and separate themselves from one another.

[Evolixe]

But it is--right now WoW as a game is built around power progression. All other content outside of the power progression is largely ignored and given next to no updates because the culture, the development, and the marketing all revolve around power progression.

So when we have that established casual players hit a wall. What's the request? Something to do that's tied to power progression so they can keep up with everyone else. But this is where Hardcore players come in and say you can't do that because what about us. Now the Devs come in and side with the Hardcore players because they themselves are hardcore players, or have personal connections to those players. At launch, the game becomes Draconian in how it deals with these systems.

Subs begin to bleed and WoW after an expansion loses upwards of 45% of active players because a large percentage of players are not having thier needs fufilled. Activision freaks out and begins demanding WoW try and get these people back. Ion comes up with a catch-up mechanic and the cycle repeats. That's WoW. That's where you are right now, and you're worried about the smaller finite players who seem to never leave?

That is not how that goes lmao. If anything the devs have a larger connection to "casuals" than to "hardcore" players. Nobody wants these grindy ass systems with player power in them. Not you, not me. Not anyone. I don't think you really have any idea what is on the mind of the "hardcore" players. You're just projecting what you think their opinions are. And I can tell you with absolute certainty its nothing like you think it is.

I mean we all have problems, but I guess I have one because I'm posting while I'm bored at work. Not sure what you mean that it will never happen like that FF14 pretty much uses that model quite well. Only 2 modes aren't queable and the best gear from those modes don't wipe out everything below it. WoW on the other hand goes oh no this heroic gear needs to dwarf all gear before it, and Mythic gear even more so! it's literally watching inequality in action just in the virtual world.

And you really believe you would be able to compete with "hardcore" players in the game by just having equal gear to them. You wouldn't. Not even close.
It serves no purpose other than to feed inequality at the top which then frustrates everyone that actually cares about how they perform in the game and they really aren't just the people getting CE's on their name. That would be literally everyone that ever checks out warcraftlogs.

And everyone agrees with this but again the problem comes in at that when they make this content, they often tie to gear that you need to do the content, and in order to get that gear you have to go on the this treadmil which is what you're saying we should develop around. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You don't need any gear from the new tier to do heroic content or +15s. Gear from the last tier will do just fine.
Again you just project a problem that you have on to everyone else.. but really its just a you problem.

[cuafpr]

M+0 needs a queue any higher does not need a queue (and this from someone that hates the M+ system)

[Miffinat0r]

That is not how that goes lmao. If anything the devs have a larger connection to "casuals" than to "hardcore" players. Nobody wants these grindy ass systems with player power in them. Not you, not me. Not anyone. I don't think you really have any idea what is on the mind of the "hardcore" players. You're just projecting what you think their opinions are. And I can tell you with absolute certainty its nothing like you think it is.

And how exactly do you know that? I'm going off of reading and watching mythic people on youtube and they all note how they have sources inside Blizzard. Could they be lying? Sure. But it's unlikely that they are because the devs agree to be interviewed by these people, and we know from previous experiences the Devs made a personal forum for these people, and I wonder how many discord servers they share with one another. Unless you have actual evidence to prove that not be correct, the logical conclusion here is that the Devs do talk to high-end gamers far more frequently than any casual player.

And you really believe you would be able to compete with "hardcore" players in the game by just having equal gear to them. You wouldn't. Not even close.
It serves no purpose other than to feed inequality at the top which then frustrates everyone that actually cares about how they perform in the game and they really aren't just the people getting CE's on their name. That would be literally everyone that ever checks out warcraftlogs.

This isn't about competition. See this is where this all falls apart because in your head we're competing. I don't really compete in co-op games. I actively avoid games now that have competition because my real life job has enough competition in it. The problem we're talking about here is how one group of players consistently has content developed for them then the rest of the game is built around that content. That's an issue.

You don't need any gear from the new tier to do heroic content or +15s. Gear from the last tier will do just fine.
Again you just project a problem that you have on to everyone else.. but really its just a you problem.

Yep and I remember what happened when Torg first launched. The solo activity not tied to player power? Oh ya Ion launched it saying you needed gear to complete wing 8. Bruh. These are the inclinations of a player (speaking of Ion) who designs a game he wants to play and be from and it's very painfully obvious that when activision reminds him of the larger market he comes up with some weak system and then forces Mythic raiders to do it because he has to make it because Activision is asking why are you losing casual players and Ion goes I don't know it's a skill issue!

[hulkgor]

I wouldn't oppose a queue\auto-finder for baseline Mythics (0), but for the keystone system it would be an absolute mess. I think it wouldn't make any sense, and i would never set foot on it.

Hard pass.

[Lathspell]

If I would change something I would remove current normal and heroic, then make M0 Normal, M7 Heroic and M15 Mythic with random queueing. Then M+ after that with cosmetic rewards.

[Jastall]

Since Cata we've seen automated difficult content is a recipe for disaster.

I'd be open to up to +5, maybe +10 perhaps, to teach the basics to newer players and such. Higher than that, and with the keystone system as it is, I don't believe it to be a good idea.

[Miffinat0r]

Since Cata we've seen automated difficult content is a recipe for disaster.

I'd be open to up to +5, maybe +10 perhaps, to teach the basics to newer players and such. Higher than that, and with the keystone system as it is, I don't believe it to be a good idea.

And GC admitted later on that it's a big fat lie that players want difficult content.

Players are humans. Humans like the path of least resistance. It's sales 101.

[Eazy]

I am happy that there's no queue for M+.

Don't want random baddies in my group to carry.

It takes all of 5 minutes to get a group together. Stop being lazy and run your own keys.

This is the best way.

[Elbob]

I said it. When I was playing WoW I first experienced M+ when I joined a M0. Didn't think it was that bad but then once I got up around 8-10 I noticed finding groups became painful. Bare in mind I was a frost mage and at the start of 9.0 after pre-launch nerfs Frost Mages were dookie. Fire wasn't but man I really really hate twitchy gameplay.

Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen. I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically. The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.

Yea comp matters, wow has 36 specs and its important those specs feel unique. I can't believe people keep asking for homogenization... If you want all comps to work together you need to squish utility and dmg profiles so much your class/spec might as well be a cosmetic options and I'm sorry but that is a garbage idea. IE) there are certain dungeons/affixes that having an aoe stun is really important but when you group finder into your 15 key with prot pally/moonkin/moonkin/Frost mage/Holy priest you are gonna have a shit time and cause people to be toxic to each other. No, just no... Take some responsibility in your gameplay experience, find a group of people to run with more consistently or make group of your own.

[Ealyssa]

Run your own key. Take literally the first 4 people that will tag in.
Boom, you have your queue system…

Tell us how it went

[TheWorkingTitle]

Absolutely not. I'm not going to carry subpar players that I get put with through a que. No. You'll be vetted beforehand and won't get an invite if you aren't up to snuff. Don't like it? Make your own group.

[Zoibert the Bear]

OP is just bad, undergeared or playing a shitty spec. Just roll a FotM class and rotate, same with PvP.

[Miffinat0r]

ITT: The key system is social! No we need this because it's a social game!

Also ITT: Bads, I don't want to carry people, I want to vet people beforehand because I don't want to play with bads!


Remind me again how this is social? Seems exclusionary.

[cface]

It takes all of 5 minutes to get a group together. Stop being lazy and run your own keys.

I've always made my own keys, and I can attest to this. It was easy even on alliance, and way easier on horde. I've even almost always played as dps, and getting a tank/healer has been really easy. I've done 0-5 keys, 8/12 keys and 15-18 keys, all depending on my toon.

Not sure why everyone is so eager to join someone elses keys, but not their own. When I run my own keys, I'm relaxed, as I know if people leave it's not the end, it's easy to grind it back up again.

[Rootsbum]

Why not? The "pro" players wont use the Mythic LFG anyways

[hollafame]

There should be severe consequences when you leave someone's key if something like that were to exist - even if it means you d/c'd. Like you can only queue for ToP for the rest of the week or you have to run with a full group of feral druids or you queue with other leavers.