Victory points - idea - long term character progression

[Wadrak]

Basically currently in wow character progression is mostly locked in current content patch.

Once next content patch comes out, the game basically resets, your once best M15 gear is not that good anymore. Since item level is increased significantly.

You carry your legendary, renown and anima upgrades. But even they will be irrelevant in next expansion. When everybody starts 100% fresh.

My idea would be to add "victory points" to game.
They could be called "glory points" or whatever.
Similar to achievements, but achievements are for even simpler tasks. Victory points would be for challenging tasks only.

These victory points could be even added to the achievements rewards. To create long term progression.

And you will get permanent rewards for your character for these points, account wide.

In 9.1 there is Sanctum of Domination raid.
For each boss you would get a victory point.
For normal 1 point, heroic 2 points, mythic 3 points. For first kill only.

Or it could be normal raid 0 points, heroic 1 point, mythic 3 points.

But once 9.2 comes out you would get zero points from Sanctum of Domination, since it would be outdated, overgeared by 9.2 and not challenging anymore.

You would get victory points for:
- finishing mythic plus dungeons in time (1 point for m5, 2 points for m10, 3 points for m15)
- raid bosses as mentioned
- for pvp arena high rating
- and for other challenging or semi challenging content

Now for these victory points you would get permanent rewards, account wide.

Point is these would NOT be "borrowed power"
No damage increase, no stats increase, no new abilities.

But you would get rewards like:
For each 20 points
- +1% experience boost account wide
- +1% gathering rate for current and future "borrowed power systems" like artifact knowledge, azerite, also for anima, war resources, reputations, soul ash and cinders
- + 1% chance to gear drop rate from all sources

At the end of expansion you may gather 100 or 200 points. You will carry these points to future expansions and start with 5-10% rates increase.

And with every expansion you could increase your rates.

So you will get meaningful reward for all the raids, mythic plus and other things you done.

But its not borrowed power advantage since other players without points could easily catch up just playing bit longer.

Also you could get unique cosmetic rewards, pets, mounts, toys, transmogs, titles and similar things.
10 points in total you get toy
30 points you get pet
50 points you get transmog
100 points you get mount
150 points you get cooler pet
etc etc.

It would be basically little bit reworked achievement system. Achievements would stay the same but you would get victory points to that.

What do you guys think ?

[Enter Name Here]

so how do you incentivize new players when they are confronted with competing with year long players that might have triple digit percent gathering and drop rates?

[Maell]

Some kind of system would be OK for me, but not like that. By only getting the points from current content you are going into FOMO territory. (which blizz loves btw - Are you a blizz employee checking ny any chance?)

And FOMO means it will evolve into boosts, and then the tokens, then P2W.


Yeah... this thread is going to become another boost thread i think.

[XDurionX]

so how do you incentivize new players when they are confronted with competing with year long players that might have triple digit percent gathering and drop rates?

Yeah, this is exactly the opposite of what wow needs.

[Wadrak]

so how do you incentivize new players when they are confronted with competing with year long players that might have triple digit percent gathering and drop rates?

You can get 5-10% per expansion, its never gonna be triple digit what are you talking about.

I specifically choose the values conservatively low, as low as possible tbh.

After 5 expansions you would get 25-50% rates max if you play all of them a lot.

Some kind of system would be OK for me, but not like that. By only getting the points from current content you are going into FOMO territory. (which blizz loves btw - Are you a blizz employee checking ny any chance?)

And FOMO means it will evolve into boosts, and then the tokens, then P2W.

Im not a blizz employee ...

Well you are free to figure out better system but its not gonna be easy.

If you want to have meaningful long term progression you need to give something of value.

Yeah, this is exactly the opposite of what wow needs.

And how do you incentive new players into a game where most of the progression resets every 6 months ?

[Cierah]

While there may be some merit to having some system that rewards people who stay with the game more on the long-term it shouldn't tie into resource gathering, experience boosts, or drop rate boosts. It shouldn't affect the economy or have any impact, even slight, on player power. So if those would be out then what would be in? Pure cosmetics that are account bound only. They cannot be obtained via any other means and cannot be traded around outside of the account.

Next question would be how would the metric/currency be obtained (although it is not spent, it is an increasing tally like achievement points and the rewards come by hitting milestones)? That's the trickier part. While it would be an easy thing to tie it to /played, not everyone is still using to some degree the first character they ever created. Tying it to a subscription duration may be possible. I'd have to think there is some marker someone on people's accounts that indicate some sort of transaction history. That may be the way to go. The longer a history you have, the more you get.

If that were the method then how is said tally accumulated? I'd think monthly since the subs are monthly. Each month you get a flat 10 points. Consecutive months can earn bonus points the longer the streak. This would then reward anyone who plays but also gives a bit more to those who play longer, which is the hope. Set the reward system milestones to something like 60/120/180/240 and so on so there aren't oodles and oodles of cosmetics behind this system but some.

Now the what? As this is purely cosmetic we're looking at xmog, toys, pets, and mounts. Ideally you'd give out one of each at each milestone. That isn't outrageous to code up and won't sprawl any databases. Additional cosmetics that could be added may be something like if they ever implemented -proper- player housing then some plaque which is similar to what YT streamers have for sub counts. Hit a threshold and you get a certain color plaque. Hit the next one and the color changes. It'd be hung in a predetermined spot when the coding is being done akin to placing pristine artifacts via archaeology.

IMO none of that imbalances the game, affects the economy, or player power and provides some (granted not a ton but still) incentive to stick with it while also not adding things to do. Not everyone raids or does M+ or PVP. This method would account for everyone game-wide. There shouldn't be any FOMO outside of obsessive collecting. Anyone who isn't obsessed with it can do without it. Those who are most likely are already keeping an active sub. Since it wouldn't be tied to the big endgame content it also wouldn't provide any footing for boosting to get involved.

[Soulwind]

It does feel kind of punishing for new players. But it'd definitely solidify the Fear Of Missing Out and Sunk Cost Fallacy that pretty much keep the current population of the game.

[Squigglyo]

Why not... just use the achievement system already in place?
Cause all youve done is just take that system and only qualify the 'hard' achievements.


There are a bunch of easy tasks, there are a bunch of hard tasks.
It would revitalise ALL old content to a degree, and everyone would be on an even playing field 'accessability' wise, since everything counts.

Sure it would be tedious to those who 'dont care' about all the achievements, but if the rewards are exciting enough (rather than just flat '+1 to thing') but not 'neccesary' then it could revitalise so much content.


Look at the Group Finder, the game is dead unless your into endgame stuff or farming gold in Maldraxus.
Imagine the Group Finder filled up with more than just Mythic+ and Normal/Heroic raids. Glory runs for every tier/xpac, MC trash farms, Ulduar Misc Achievements, rep farming, rare spawn farm groups, leveling groups, etc

[Wadrak]

While there may be some merit to having some system that rewards people who stay with the game more on the long-term it shouldn't tie into resource gathering, experience boosts, or drop rate boosts. It shouldn't affect the economy or have any impact, even slight, on player power. So if those would be out then what would be in? Pure cosmetics that are account bound only. They cannot be obtained via any other means and cannot be traded around outside of the account.

Sorry but this where we disagree.

In my opinion its very lame cosmetics are only long term progress.

I dont see why long term progress shouldn't affect player power. I think it definetely should in some way. But it must be done in clever way.

Thats why I choose not direct but indirect path.

You dont get to keep for example. Lets say artifact weapons from Legion, if they dont removed them they would have like 300 traits by now. And new players really couldnt catch up.

But if you give players slightly increased rates, that would be balanced way to approach it.

Why not... just use the achievement system already in place?
Cause all youve done is just take that system and only qualify the 'hard' achievements.

Because they are "Victory Points".
Not free points.

That's like saying you in for example Ice Hockey game, who scores most goals wins. Score is usually Team A 2 - Team B 4, Team B wins.

But you basically saying you want "player shots" who missed the net, or players passes which dont end up as goals, or simply time spend on Ice skating, to count as a Goal ! Score would be like Team A 700 -Team B 800, and nobody would be scoring actual goals ! Because there would be simpler way to achieve points.

What kind of game is that ?

[iinverse]

- +1% gathering rate for current and future "borrowed power systems" like artifact knowledge, azerite, also for anima, war resources, reputations, soul ash and cinders

Its like "grind one sh*t to for better grinding other sh*t".

[Wadrak]

Its like "grind one sh*t to for better grinding other sh*t".

If you consider following activities grinding:

Only first kill on bosses each season would count.

You would get victory points for:
- finishing mythic plus dungeons in time (1 point for m5, 2 points for m10, 3 points for m15)
- raid bosses as mentioned
- for pvp arena high rating
- and for other challenging or semi challenging content

[iinverse]

If you consider following activities grinding:

Only first kill on bosses each season would count.

You would get victory points for:
- finishing mythic plus dungeons in time (1 point for m5, 2 points for m10, 3 points for m15)
- raid bosses as mentioned
- for pvp arena high rating
- and for other challenging or semi challenging content

Sooo... people who do not like pvp for example will have less bonuses? Or if they do not like m+ or raiding?

[Wadrak]

Sooo... people who do not like pvp for example will have less bonuses? Or if they do not like m+ or raiding?

Thats a problem of having two games PvE and PvP in one game.

But these bonuses are not mandatory.

If you gain them nice but if not, not too bad.

[Squigglyo]

Because they are "Victory Points".
Not free points.

That's like saying you in for example Ice Hockey game, who scores most goals wins. Score is usually Team A 2 - Team B 4, Team B wins.

But you basically saying you want "player shots" who missed the net, or players passes which dont end up as goals, or simply time spend on Ice skating, to count as a Goal ! Score would be like Team A 700 -Team B 800, and nobody would be scoring actual goals ! Because there would be simpler way to achieve points.

What kind of game is that ?

How about any sport based on points, rather than 'goals'? Take Boxing. You dont win just from a KO, you win from points. All the little 'player shots' add up. A KO is worth points, but isnt the 'winning' thing.

Your example, mixed with your system, would mean any team going in that played last season, would have extra points against any 'new' team. Making it pretty unbalanced, unfair and toxic towards anyone new over anyone old.


The ONLY way a system like yours would work is if all points are obtainable at any time, anything removed has to be removed for everyone. People min/max already, even if the bonuses arent relevant to power, you put in a system that tells them that they can NEVER be as good or as efficient as someone else because they didnt do something 2 years ago, youll start losing people

[Wadrak]

How about any sport based on points, rather than 'goals'? Take Boxing. You dont win just from a KO, you win from points. All the little 'player shots' add up. A KO is worth points, but isnt the 'winning' thing.

Your example, mixed with your system, would mean any team going in that played last season, would have extra points against any 'new' team. Making it pretty unbalanced, unfair and toxic towards anyone new over anyone old.


The ONLY way a system like yours would work is if all points are obtainable at any time, anything removed has to be removed for everyone. People min/max already, even if the bonuses arent relevant to power, you put in a system that tells them that they can NEVER be as good or as efficient as someone else because they didnt do something 2 years ago, youll start losing people

Thats not true.

For example imagine new expansion launch with player A having 10% bonus to rates, and player B is new player.

Lets say there is new borrowed power system like Artifact weapons from Legion with 50 traits.

Playing same amount of time.
Player A reaches 50 traits in lets say 30 days.
Player B reaches 45 traits in 30 days.

Player A is capped.
So Player B plays few more days lets say 5 and he is capped too. Min-maxed as well.

Now they are on equal footing again.

I find this acceptable advantage.


Basically is about WoW being almost completely seasonal game.

I find that very frustrating in a way. This is not Diablo 3. This mmorpg.

I would imagine in mmorpg you should be able to make some long term progress the longer you play.

Whats the point of min maxing your gear and borrowed power every season doing all the chores if you gonna loose it all in next season ?

But adding these victory points with bonus rates, now it makes sense ! To kill Mythic bosses etc.
To be min maxed every season to carry those victory points to next season.

[Squigglyo]

Basically you just want the EXACT achievement system we have.
But ONLY the 'hard' ones give you the rewards youve come up with.


Your idea could be solved litteraly by just adding these as Achievement Rewards to
PVP Ratings Achievements for the season
Normal/Heroic/Mythic Achievements for the current patch
Mythic+ Achievements for the season

Theres no need to rework the wheel.
'Add these as rewards to specific achievements during the current expansion'



However
Even a boost to 'artifact power' would be huge. Top end guilds would ONLY ever recruit players with that boost maxed out, due to getting maxed gear faster, even if its by a few hours, thats a huge boost for them.

So ultimatly, the rewards cannot be good enough that people 'need' them. Which means the effort to obtain them will far outweigh the reward.
No one will go out of their way to reach out of their comfort zone to go from Heroic to Mythic raids, simply to get the slight boost to exp, or the small increase in chance to gather herbs. Which means the only people who would get ALL the boosts, are the Top End Players, who really wouldnt care too much about it.

The rewards would have to be casual in their nature so as not to be a create unfair advantages, ultimatly meaning they are useless in the grand scheme of things, and rewarding them for Mythic Raiding or KSM, just makes them a joke.

[Wadrak]

Basically you just want the EXACT achievement system we have.
But ONLY the 'hard' ones give you the rewards youve come up with.


Your idea could be solved litteraly by just adding these as Achievement Rewards to
PVP Ratings Achievements for the season
Normal/Heroic/Mythic Achievements for the current patch
Mythic+ Achievements for the season

Theres no need to rework the wheel.
'Add these as rewards to specific achievements during the current expansion'

.

I know I said the same in my first post that these could added to existing achievements.

[Squigglyo]

The issue is trying to give some sort of perminance.


You cannot give anything of value and then make it unattainable.

You start to create a power creep.


One of the draws for WoW is that there is a reset in power every now and then. The people on the top arent on the top forever without working to get back up there.


The ONLY way perminant rewards can work, is if they are 'meaningless'. Like cosmetics, mounts, titles, etc.
Anything that influences gold making or power aquisition (boosts to artifact power) or boosts to exp, starts to become an issue the more that gets added.



Lets take a quick look at potential rewards
+power = obvious no no
+more gear drops = another obvious no
+faster artifact power = top end guilds would start to ONLY recruit people with this 'stat' maxed
+ more ore/herb/etc from gathering = on the face of it, not that big a deal, but as time goes on, new players cannot compete, making gold becomes 'harder' for newer players and farming bots would rule this stat. Eventually if your not an 'old' players, you may as well not bother gathering
+rep = fun idea but any rep tied to player power, like most of them at the start of an expansion, becomes an issue.
+borrowed power materials = sounds great to the individual, get legendaries faster, etc. However, getting them faster means having them sooner. Another top end guild issue
+exp = one of the only ones that really works. But it couldnt work for current content, leveling faster = raiding faster = top end guilds 'needing' it. Having it work for alts once you hit your first 'maxed' char for that xpac could solve that issue.

So, pretty much every option is a no go if you dont want the system to implode on itself.
So all that leaves are the meaningless rewards that are already rewarded from the current content.
- Pets
- Mounts
- Titles
- Toys
- Transmog

Pretty much what we have now. Just without much of it being removed.

[Wadrak]

So, pretty much every option is a no go if you dont want the system to implode on itself.
So all that leaves are the meaningless rewards that are already rewarded from the current content.
- Pets
- Mounts
- Titles
- Toys
- Transmog

Pretty much what we have now. Just without much of it being removed.

So basically you are trying to say you
- play the game for hundreds of hours in each season
- min maxing the gear, running many m+15 dungeons
- progressing on hard mythic bosses with dozens of wipes
- doing all the chores for borrowed power

And in next season, its all gone, and you get nothing from it ?

Not only you will lose all you gained, BUT you have to do it all again for nothing again !

Just some cosmetics, achievements and collections. Im not interested inin those.

From story wise, lore wise, if you have been powerful before, why shouldn't be powerful now ?

I find this a bigger problem then what you are saying.

[Squigglyo]

So basically you are trying to say you
- play the game for hundreds of hours in each season
- min maxing the gear, running many m+15 dungeons
- progressing on hard mythic bosses with dozens of wipes
- doing all the chores for borrowed power

And in next season, its all gone, and you get nothing from it ?

Not only you will lose all you gained, BUT you have to do it all again for nothing again !

Just some cosmetics, achievements and collections.

From story wise, lore wise, if you have been powerful before, why shouldn't be powerful now ?

I find this a bigger problem then what you are saying.

During an expansion
Thats not seasonal though, thats litteraly the basis of the MMORPG. Constant power gain. The issue mostly is that the gains are too large.
In past expansions, gear wasnt such a drastic leap above the previous tier, and you had players farming older tiers for specific items.
Nowadays, each tier is better for almost everything.

When moving from 1 expansion to the next
Each expansion has some loose logic on why we are weaker. Legion had us lose our artifacts. BFA had the Heart of Azeroth being used up.
Other logics are simply we are in 'new place' and the 'races' there have access to 'things' that make this new area full of stronger things and thus stronger gear.

Again your issue isnt the drop in power, its that you were a powerful hero in 'Place we conquered' and now arent all that powerful in 'New Place we discovered'. The simple loose logic is just we didnt get weaker, we found a stronger place to fight in.



What you want, is essentially to make it seasonal. You want specific things to be rewarded during the 'season', and to carry over to the 'next season'. You want people to play in each 'season' so they can gain specific rewards that will carry over for them and help them get better in the next 'season'.