"Arthas did Nothing wrong" What about the Scourging of Lordaeron??

[kizcrew]

Were Arthas' men also horrible people who deserved to freeze to death because of arthas' goal?

Why did they freeze to death? Arthas survived. Some of his men survived, as we can see with Falric and Marwyn. So why did some of them freeze to death? Arthas got the sword, killed Mal'Ganis, and then made his way back to Lordaeron. How did he do that without ships? He had a way to go back. Clearly he took some men with him. Did he leave some men behind? I am sure had he not been cursed by the blade, he would've attempted to get them all back, but maybe, after he took up Frostmourne, he already didn't care enough about his people anymore.

But why did they just freeze to death in Northrend? I mean Northrend is harsh, but people survive there. People are living there. They have houses. We've survived there for an entire expansion and beyond.

And the burning ships thing is a strategy that has been used in real history by real leaders in order to make sure your troops can't go back and have to give everything going forward. It works, and it has worked in Arthas' case. These soldiers swore to give their life protecting their own people, and Arthas made sure that they would.

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Remember guys, if you can reasonably assume the men you have hired to do a job have done something bad at some point, it's fine to murder them.

It's not about "having done something bad". They were literal murderers. They would have killed Arthas and his men had someone paid them to do it. I'm sure Arthas didn't have a hard time making that decision, and most people wouldn't have. Especially when the survival of your own people is on the line. Would you sacrifice some hitmen for hire, in order to protect your women and your children at home? If not, then you're a bad leader.

[Deneios]

Stratholme is the point of no return. Before that Arthas was justified and even the things he did in Stratholme were justified to end the needles suffering of his subjects. Stratholme was mercy that turned into vengeance and revenge.

Would Arthas had walked a different path if he had his friends in his time of need? Probably but that didnt happen.
Arthas was not just a Paladin he was the Crown Prince of Lordaeron and a Paladin. He had his oath of a Paladin and expectations of the whole nation on his shoulders. Those 2 expectations would clash and oppose sometimes.

[kizcrew]

Stratholme is the point of no return. Before that Arthas was justified and even the things he did in Stratholme were justified to end the needles suffering of his subjects. Stratholme was mercy that turned into vengeance and revenge.

Would Arthas had walked a different path if he had his friends in his time of need? Probably but that didnt happen.
Arthas was not just a Paladin he was the Crown Prince of Lordaeron and a Paladin. He had his oath of a Paladin and expectations of the whole nation on his shoulders. Those 2 expectations would clash and oppose sometimes.

You say Stratholme is the point of no return, but you say Stratholme was justified.

[Revamp Man]

Both Warcraft Hitlers don’t deserve redemption

[Deneios]

You say Stratholme is the point of no return, but you say Stratholme was justified.

Yes it was justified. It is the same exact scenario as in MGS5 where you deal with the vocal parasites in your FOB.

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Both Warcraft Hitlers don’t deserve redemption

Garrosh and Sylvanas?

[Mic_128]

I am sure had he not been cursed by the blade, he would've attempted to get them all back, but maybe, after he took up Frostmourne, he already didn't care enough about his people anymore.

I mean, seeing as his first real act after defeating the dreadlord was to return home and kill his father and destroy his kingdom...

And the burning ships thing is a strategy that has been used in real history by real leaders in order to make sure your troops can't go back and have to give everything going forward. It works, and it has worked in Arthas' case. These soldiers swore to give their life protecting their own people, and Arthas made sure that they would.

Just because "it works" doesn't mean it's "good". Having your army go into groups of ten, give them a single gun with a bullet and have them pick which one to shoot has historically shown to keep your men under control, but decimating your own men isn't "good".

Neither is lying to your men about why you're there, that you're even supposed to be there, and deserting them on a frozen wasteland to fight and die for what is, at that point, his own vengeance.

[Deneios]

I mean, seeing as his first real act after defeating the dreadlord was to return home and kill his father and destroy his kingdom...

While under the effect of the said cursed sword.
That he is carrying back from northrend while under the effect of the curse. Someone could say he was cursed the moment he touched the cursed sword. The same sword he used to kill the dreadlord

[Zuben]

Arthas wasn't really himself after he became a death knight (such shifts in personality and things you hold dear aren't in any way natural), so people tend to judge him by his actions while he was still a paladin. Stratholme is discussed the most because it was the most morally dubious event during that time, and really the point where Arthas became overwhelmed by his desire to hunt Mal'ganis down. The whole Northrend campaign was as much about him saving his people as Walter White's meth schemes were about ensuring his family's well-being.

I'm the kind of guy who's against capital punishment and think eternal doom (aka Hell, The Maw) is unreasonable. If various cosmic forces hadn't manipulated Arthas and overwhelmed his kingdom he'd have become a swell ruler, which was revealed in glances of AU realms in one of the books. He became terrible, because he was thrown into extreme circumstances, then changed into a force of nature, all by the design of god-like entities. That's why it was cathartic he just died, or, found peace at last at the aftermath of ICC. Though they shat on that right after with Sylvanas's short story, as she sensed Arthas in the hell-existence she briefly experienced herself after her suicide. This wasn't expanded upon until the pre-Shadowlands Uther cinematic.

If the purpose of uncorrupted Revendreth is to make souls realize and accept the wrongs they've committed it could be seen as a sort of rehabilitation, which would've been right for Arthas. Considering even the worst character in the franchise, Gul'dan, had some justification for turning bad (living as a cripple in a cruel society where strength is everything, even refused by the elements, then at that low point offered power by a force he knew nothing of) I don't think The Maw has moral justification. Bad apples should just be sent to Revendreth and be there until they get better.

(Though personally I find it questionable your are being measured by fallible creatures there too. Who's to say they're right in their assessment? Garrosh always thought his way was right and refused to yield even in the afterlife. I'm just saying there's ample ground for philosophical debate in the afterlife system of Warcraft.)

[Progenitor Aquarius]

We will be killing relics of the First Ones, we will be killing celestials and yet we will keep forgiving villains. There is something really wrong since the Titans were shut down in the Seat of Pantheon.

[Kumorii]

Arthas were an interesting character because of his disregard of others. The fact that he didn't do things because of his land or men, but because he wanted revenge or justice.
The fact that he went straight to culling without much thought showed he cared more to stop Mal'Ganis, rather than ensure his people were safe. The spiel about how it all were to protect his people is just a convenient lie to both himself and the people to get the revenge. It created a interesting play between that he wanted justice / revenge due to the fact his men suffered. But at the same time he sacrificed so many to get it because he felt he has that responsibility.
I still remember when he finally get frostmourne and Muradin "dies" and he stands there with a sly smile on his face. He truly believe the ends justify the means.
I know this is probably a model limitation of the engine since they didn't have facial animations for the ingame character(fairly sure it's just a texture), except for the profile head. It still painted this picture for me back then.

Then we have all these additions with books and what not that turned him into a vicitm. Which I did not enjoy...but it is what it is. "Is it over?" Worst line ever uttered.
However, the notion that "Arthas did nothing wrong" is just flat out wrong. He did plenty of things wrong. Which is why frostmourne/lich king chose him. Because he knew he was flawed and perfect for manipulation.

just my 2 cents.

[Athorha]

only because he met by chance Muradin was specifically there to corrupt him by the exact enemy he was trying to destroy to save his people.

One thing that to the best of my knowledge blizz has never touched on is why muradin was there looking for frostmourne. True he is a dwarf interested in artifacts, but given he didnt understand the curse behind the blade until he was close enough to read the runic inscription, it leads me to believe someone else sent him there. The only person I could think of having sent muradin to retrieve the blade... is bolvar. Both bolvar and muradin were close to arthas, and you could say they both had a relationship as well, why bolvar would send muradin is anyones guess, but given that bolvar was not present in lordaeron during the scourge's initial breach, and he wasn't in northrend looking for frostmourne it makes me wonder how such a key figure who then happened to be in the right place at the right time all throughout our northrend campaign, was completely missing in every event that came prior. Imo bolvar didn't anticipate arthas' directive, sent muradin to do what he himself should have done in northrend, which caused arthas to become LK instead of Bolvar, which is why wotlk happened instead of us directly going to bolvar being LK, something that bolvar must have been aware of... the whole "there must always be a lich king" was news to us on the peak of icecrown... but there's no way that was the first time bolvar or tirion thought that fate for handling the scourge threat.

[TheRevenantHero]

It's honestly pretty simple why a lot of people will say Arthas did nothing wrong. Because he's an Alliance character. No matter what Alliance characters do, no matter how atrocious their actions were, it's always justified. But if a Horde lore character does ANYTHING that could be even remotely seen as bad? They're obviously a heartless sociopath beyond redemption.

[kizcrew]

Just because "it works" doesn't mean it's "good".

If the alternative is the annihilation of your entire race, then yes, what works is good.

[Athorha]

If the alternative is the annihilation of your entire race, then yes, what works is good.

azshara, kiljaeden and archimonde aligning with sargeras say hello

[Mic_128]

While under the effect of the said cursed sword.
That he is carrying back from northrend while under the effect of the curse. Someone could say he was cursed the moment he touched the cursed sword. The same sword he used to kill the dreadlord

My point was-

but maybe, after he took up Frostmourne, he already didn't care enough about his people anymore.

that there's no "maybe" about it.

If the alternative is the annihilation of your entire race, then yes, what works is good.

What about when the alternative is you don't get to go off on an ill-advised rampage to the ends of the world?

[kizcrew]

azshara, kiljaeden and archimonde aligning with sargeras say hello

Those races survived.

But it's not a good example. Because Sargeras would've ultimately destroyed all life in the universe. That's not "what's good for the survival of your race".

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What about when the alternative is you don't get to go off on an ill-advised rampage to the ends of the world?

I don't know what you're talking about. The Scourge were turning people into zombies, and Arthas was chasing Mal'Ganis, because he was an agent of the Scourge. What should he have done, surrender? That he would ultimately be cursed by Frostmourne doesn't change that fighting those that are trying to kill your own people is the best thing you can do.

Maybe there would've been a better way to end the Scourge than to run into their trap and follow them to Northrend? Maybe? But that is the way Blizzard has written the story. They wanted Arthas to be manipulated by the Lich King and to become his vessel. So his fate was unavoidable because Blizzard wrote the story this way.

[Tanaria]

Let's have it right.

Anything about Arthas in this expansion, with even a possible return, has likely long been scrapped, due to the failure that is the expansion; Shadowlands.

[Jokubas]

It isn't about Arthas having done nothing wrong. He did plenty of things wrong.

It's about Arthas making human mistakes. Arthas meant well. He really did. He went to the ends of the earth to save his kingdom. The problem was that he mistook recklessness for courage, that ignoring every warning in his path was a sign of determination and conviction rather than negligence and tunnel-vision.

The people of Stratholme were doomed either way. Arthas didn't massacre innocent villagers because he was a murderer, he did it to prevent them from becoming zombies and killing their neighbors. It was a no-win situation. Kill them to save others, or keep your hands clean and let them die and become monsters? It was moral ambiguity, an ethical dilemma, not unadulterated evil.

It's also about Uther independent of Arthas. Uther had his own code to live up to. Arthas was his charge. Almost a surrogate son, even. It was his job not just to teach Arthas what was right, but to be there for him when he made mistakes. Regardless of how Arthas reacted to it, Uther had a duty to himself to understand why Arthas did what he did, even if he didn't agree. Uther let Arthas push him away before he had crossed any actual lines, because Uther let himself succumb to frustration and anger.

Ultimately, too, after Arthas picked up Frostmourne he was no longer himself. This has been true since Warcraft III, this is not new lore about soul splitting. Between those events, there's really only the betrayal of the mercenaries. That was not a heroic act, obviously. Again, though, it wasn't just the everyday lifestyle of a murderer. As far as Arthas knew at the time, he was on the brink of saving the world. If he went home quietly, not only would he have lost his chance to cut off the head of the Scourge, but the Scourge's rate of growth would make sure no one ever got the chance again as far as anyone knew. If that happened, could anyone live with that regret? That's the scenario that was in Arthas' mind. Burning the ships and blaming it on the mercenaries was an act of desperation made as a trade-off for saving the world, not because he didn't value life.

There's definitely a "it gets easier" problem with these decisions. That's exactly the path the Lich King meant to bait Arthas down, but he had to bait him down it. There's a reason that Arthas' words when we finally put him down were "Is it over?" Arthas never wanted to end up the way he did. The moment he gets his mind back, he's relieved that it's over, even if that means his life is also over. He is not proud of what he did as the Lich King. He does not justify his actions.

[Mic_128]

I don't know what you're talking about. The Scourge were turning people into zombies, and Arthas was chasing Mal'Ganis, because he was an agent of the Scourge. What should he have done, surrender?

I would have instead, returned home, gathered an army, including the paladins I foolishly disbanded, and then returned to Northrend to deal with it properly.

Maybe there would've been a better way to end the Scourge than to run into their trap and follow them to Northrend? Maybe? But that is the way Blizzard has written the story. They wanted Arthas to be manipulated by the Lich King and to become his vessel. So his fate was unavoidable because Blizzard wrote the story this way.

Well...yeah? I mean jeez, that's the answer to literally every bit of discussion about lore. "It doesn't matter because Blizzard wrote it this way."

[huth]

Stratholme is the point of no return. Before that Arthas was justified and even the things he did in Stratholme were justified to end the needles suffering of his subjects. Stratholme was mercy that turned into vengeance and revenge.

It was only justified in hindsight, and with further hindsight, turned out to not actually matter anyway. Meanwhile Arthas himself completely failed to justify his actions and just went "listen, trust me bro" over perfectly valid objections to his suggestions. That's hardly proper behaviour for somebody set to be king.