How do you cater to both the Progression player and the Casual player?

[nvaelz]

Casuals see gear as progress. Just let them slowly grind BIS gear or something of the same ilvl or roughly equal power from a currency system. That's their game. Who cares if they get gear slowly if they don't even raid or do anything much with it? If some mazed rats grind it relentlessly to power up at the start of each tier, it doesn't matter. I don't see why the game should be ruined for most of its playerbase because a few hundred losers worldwide want to 'be competitive' for 2 weeks of a 1-year patch. Thing is they still DO grind something relentlessly anyway whether it gives a 1% or a 100% increase because the challenge is never the content, it's the horror that some other nerd will get that 1% increase over them. Parses are fucking retarded.

Haha yes! Parses are so disgusting I can't believe it.

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You can't, that's not possible. I say this next bit because I believe this is where it all started, the problem has since evolved past it. Casuals need to accept the fact that they just won't have the best stuff in the game. Casuals, and those that simped for them, have ruined the game by mind fucking Blizzard into thinking that the casuals need to be able to be on the SAME level as those who are able to dedicate more time to the game. That's just how life works. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. And rather than accept that fact, people took to the forums to whine about it and have mommy and daddy Blizzard try to fix it for them. Now we're in this back-and-forth mess of casuals blaming hardcore, and the hardcore blaming the casuals. The game would be in a much better state if the people from BOTH camps could shut up and realize they can't get everything they want. Some things will naturally end up benefitting the casuals, and others the hardcore... Deal with it. Some things just can't have a perfectly compromised middle ground.

TLDR; the player base is nothing but two separate packs of ill-behaved dogs fighting over who gets the next bone.

You're wrong because casuals can spend ALOT of time on the game and get nowhere so that's not the problem it's the social structure of getting somewhere that is gated by a specific type of social person so you'll be this one way or you'll get no where and have to pay to win.

[Ekis]

Some people think the "current" reality is the "only" reality that will ever exist.



It's really sad that if I log into WoW and create a new character I know the formula of progression. I'll level up and have an ENJOYABLE time being non competitive with random people in the LFG tool and then I'll hit 50+ where the less enjoyable time begins... I'll hit 60 and I'll start playing Arena with 0 gear(I'll try to find someone much better geared than me to help me win points faster) I'll get point and I'll play with someone good enough to get me higher rating, and I'll get higher rating and I'll find someone else on higher rating and I'll get max ilvl. It's a boring formula.

The thing about the "current" and "future" is no one knows, but we have examples of where things completely went off the rails and games lost their player base due to what could essentially boil down to gimmicks (I mean, New World went from being about open World PvP, and other than the rampant bugs running along with it, to having other forms of progression so shallow that what, a 10th of the player base is left). There's a difference in being a casual and expecting everything to be laid out in front of us. Even I'm casual, but I don't like it when people want to change things up because they want progression at a similar pace as those who play more without working for it.


Thus, asking a game to reinvent itself to keep one entertained is fine but we must be careful about how we go for that. Casual/hardcore really has no bearing on this, but asking them to continuously change the game has been a detriment thus far. Sometimes the wheel doesn't need to be reinvented, people just have to know what they're getting into and everything that entails it.

As for the last part, why not just play something else? If your sense of discovery has tanked and you're not enjoying the fact that you know how to do things, why not just grab another game or something? Even I don't like that, but as far as issues with the current game that's almost a non-issue in my book since I've played for so long; eventually that happens with all games.

[Nachtigal]

Haha yes! Parses are so disgusting I can't believe it.

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You're wrong because casuals can spend ALOT of time on the game and get nowhere so that's not the problem it's the social structure of getting somewhere that is gated by a specific type of social person so you'll be this one way or you'll get no where and have to pay to win.

That's a bad player then, not a casual player. If someone is bad at the game that's definitely their own problem. There are many ways to get better at the game. That would ruin the game faster than this Casual VS Hardcore mess the game is stuck in.

[nvaelz]

The thing about the "current" and "future" is no one knows, but we have examples of where things completely went off the rails and games lost their player base due to what could essentially boil down to gimmicks (I mean, New World went from being about open World PvP, and other than the rampant bugs running along with it made other forms of progression so shallow that what, a 10th of the player base is left). There's a difference in being a casual and expecting everything to be laid out in front of us. Even I'm casual, but I don't like it when people want to change things up because they want progression at a similar pace as those who play more without working for it.


Thus, asking a game to reinvent itself to keep one entertained is fine but we must be careful about how we go for that.

I don't think it has to be one or the other way it has to be both ways leading to the top of the mountain. Grinding for it should take longer than winning for it.

[Sanguinerd]

Casuals see gear as progress. Just let them slowly grind BIS gear or something of the same ilvl or roughly equal power from a currency system. That's their game. Who cares if they get gear slowly if they don't even raid or do anything much with it? If some mazed rats grind it relentlessly to power up at the start of each tier, it doesn't matter. I don't see why the game should be ruined for most of its playerbase because a few hundred losers worldwide want to 'be competitive' for 2 weeks of a 1-year patch. Thing is they still DO grind something relentlessly anyway whether it gives a 1% or a 100% increase because the challenge is never the content, it's the horror that some other nerd will get that 1% increase over them. Parses are fucking retarded.

Thats the thing though, Blizzard has repeatedly gone out of their way to prohibit those people from getting a advantage to some irrelevant race and the majority of the playerbase has to suffer because of it.

Most players don't even give a shit about having BiS or being optimal, warcraftlogs or any of that crap.

[nvaelz]

That's a bad player then, not a casual player. If someone is bad at the game that's definitely their own problem. There are many ways to get better at the game. That would ruin the game faster than this Casual VS Hardcore mess the game is stuck in.

It's everyone's own problem in how they survive in the world of disparity.

[Ekis]

You're wrong because casuals can spend ALOT of time on the game and get nowhere so that's not the problem it's the social structure of getting somewhere that is gated by a specific type of social person so you'll be this one way or you'll get no where and have to pay to win.

Again you guys need to define what "casual" is when using it. I am a casual player, have always been until I stopped raiding Mythic in BFA. Got Cutting Edge achievements since Warlords of Draenor.

Casual does not mean bad or someone who got a raw deal.

[Caerrona]

Why do trash cans that can't out dps the healer think they deserve mythic loot? Get better at the game and stop being scum and maybe you will get what you want. It's called effort, rewarding lazy pieces of shit is not how you solve the games problems.

[nvaelz]

Why do trash cans that can't out dps the healer think they deserve mythic loot? Get better at the game and stop being scum and maybe you will get what you want. It's called effort, rewarding lazy pieces of shit is not how you solve the games problems.

But that's not the whole truth tho because I'll outdps the dps as a healer and I'm still here advocating for better avenues of gear for casual low dps players because that'll make a happier space than there is now. I'm not going to sit on my high ilvl horse and sneer down on the peasant low ilvl scrubs that can't reach my lvls while stroking my own ego. It's garbage game design.

[deenman]

I'm sticking to my guns, there is nothing that I said that wouldn't qualify as Wrath of the Lich King systems, which itself wasn't biased in any way towards casual playerbase and was rather liked by everyone.

wrath was by far the worst system wow has ever had,yes it was enjoyed duh,it was kiddy casual friendly to the extreme,and thats most of the base of any game

if the goverment gave everyone 100.000$ they would ofc enjoy it,but it wouldnt make it a good idea as the economy and infrastucture would colapse

[Ekis]

I don't think it has to be one or the other way it has to be both ways leading to the top of the mountain. Grinding for it should take longer than winning for it.

Yeah but not everybody will make it to the top. What I'm reading is, some people want the experience by taking the rails and others want the dirt and snowy track to the top.

Some people will collapse to do not being able to handle the change in pressure no matter which path is given or if another way was made. Doesn't mean they should instead be hoisted up there, some people will just have to accept that not everything is meant for them. Such is life.

[kenn9530]

They do need to feel like they are progressing though, something the proponents of what is in the quote often forget or more likely ignore. And there's nothing at all wrong with players having some of the best gear if they've done the necessary things to attain it. It may just take longer for them and that's fine. Artificial ceilings on progression for those who, for whatever reason, don't want or cannot access or get through the high difficulty stuff are bad.

Thats what acheivements and such is for gear is not the only thing to progress a character, if you dont even attempt the content you dont deserve the higher quality items, current tier LFR level loot is more than enough for a casual player who doesnt do high M+ or raid.

[Celvira]

Removing borrowed power would be a great start. Plus, if your game is actually enjoyable, you shouldn't need a borrowed power system to keep your player's engaged.

Another possible solution would be adopting a system similar to FFXIV's tomestones. For those who are unaware of the mechanics behind tomestones, they are basically a weekly currency that is capped at a limited threshold. This currency is used to purchase gear with an item-level similar to WoW's heroic raids, and you can normally only acquire enough currency per week to purchase a single piece of gear. After X amount of months, this limit is raised, and players can upgrade their tomestone gear to rival some of the best armor in the game.

XIV's system keeps casual players invested because the gap between players isn't particularly all that noticeable - you play 5-10 hours per week to cap and you are pretty much set. Hardcore players of course have an advantage due to savage level gear (equal to mythic raids) being 10 levels higher, and the only way to unlock such gear is through savage raiding. Additionally, savage has RNG loot protection so you will eventually be able to acquire a specific piece of gear if you complete enough weekly runs via an additional currency.

[kenn9530]

Grandmasters and flawless content is actually challenging rather than not. Single percent digits for those completion seals has proven that even you obtained best gear in the game, still only few percent of actual playerbase has ever managed to achieve it.

This further reinforces the notion that it's actually okay to obtain best possible gear earlier so you can tackle the challenges at greater ease. Which ties to what rewards do players want from these most challenging activities. For once it would be nice to be an activitiy itself with unique cosmetics and titles being preferable choice.

Most ppl in destiny dont even bother with the more challenging content, they just farm the light level and when you max it out there is not much else to do apart from collect stuff, the content is based around light level and most areas are scaled to it so you dont overgear the harder content. That is not the case with WoW players get gear to make the content slightly easier by reducing the amount of skill required.

[Ekis]

Removing borrowed power would be a great start. Plus, if your game is actually enjoyable, you shouldn't need a borrowed power system to keep your player's engaged.

Another possible solution would be adopting a system similar to FFXIV's tomestones. For those who are unaware of the mechanics behind tomestones, they are basically a weekly currency that is capped at a limited threshold. This currency is used to purchase gear with an item-level similar to WoW's heroic raids, and you can normally only acquire enough currency per week to purchase a single piece of gear. After X amount of months, this limit is raised, and players can upgrade their tomestone gear to rival some of the best armor in the game.

XIV's system keeps casual players invested because the gap between players isn't particularly all that noticeable - you play 5-10 hours per week to cap and you are pretty much set. Hardcore players of course have an advantage due to savage level gear (equal to mythic raids) being 10 levels higher, and the only way to unlock such gear is through savage raiding. Additionally, savage has RNG loot protection so you will eventually be able to acquire a specific piece of gear if you complete enough weekly runs via an additional currency.

I think WoW has had a similar thing to FF14's tombstones. The problem with it was that it was potentially gating the more dedicated players and it didn't really entice players already not interested in doing the content. I think we still have some form of it in PvP Conquest stuff but I could be wrong.

But yeah removing borrowed power would be an amazing start. Hardcore and casual players alike don't really care for it from what I've seen, just another system to pile on top of things. I hope they at the very minimum get away from it come next expansion or if they HAVE to include it, make it non-essential.

[kenn9530]

I'm sticking to my guns, there is nothing that I said that wouldn't qualify as Wrath of the Lich King systems, which itself wasn't biased in any way towards casual playerbase and was rather liked by everyone.

Gear needs to be harder to get, you shouldnt just be thrown max ilvl items like candy because thats what happens currently, most high level players are max ilvl within a month of a new patch, it should be harder and longer to gear up, players who dont do certain content dont need higher level items.

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Waiting for the dumbest person on your team to stop making mistakes is not hard.

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“I want other people to wish they were as cool as me” is not an argument for making a game more fun.

Setting up a stun lock and popping all your cds is not hard, 20 ppl focusing on tactics for 10 mins is much harder than what you need to do in PvP.

[T-34]

You can't get through to people like that. They legitimately think getting the world 2000th denathrius kill makes them equivalent to being in the NFL.

Welcome back!
Even children from a quite young age enjoy winning. And you can't have "winning" in a game without "loosing".
But this thread is about casuals where quite a lot of people are shaming casuals as people who are unwilling or unable to participate in content that has even the slightest amount of challenge.

[Delekii]

I assume that there isn't a 100% perfect answer but in your mind what would come close to the best possible compromise between these two groups?

In my mind the best option would be to cap power obtained outside of progression systems to roughly normal/heroic while removing all/most long term progression systems from the game. As for long term progression I could see a mythic/elite recolor being available though a long term grind would be better reward.

What are your thoughts on it?

Re-educate "progression" players on the virtue of having the gear "first", rather than other people just not getting it at all. Time is an element to gearing that is completely ignored in debate on who should get what, despite being the only thing that makes that gear relevant to progression.

The only person who gives a shit what you are wearing is you.

[T-34]

Oh look, it's the usual bullshit from T-34. If you had ANY experience playing games other than WoW you'd know that most people don't strive for anything when playing games. Yours is a super niche mentality that is definitely over-represented on these forums since a lot of WoW's endgame content is geared towards very repetitive, grindy play that isn't very fun if you don't "win". Most people just play games for socializing and maybe for a quick dopamine rush, and outside of a professional or tournament setting where prizes are on the line winning and losing aren't a major concern for most.

Nobody stops you from wilfully not wanting to try.
I just find it quite odd that people with such mentality feel entitled to the same rewards as people that do.
And I find it even more odd that people with such mentality keep doing certain types of content where the rewards more or less follows your efforts.
There is plenty of content in WoW for people that wilfully refuse to do their best.

Added:
And once more time: Plenty of casual players do competitive content at a high level in WoW. Stop skill-shaming casuals!

[bloodmoth13]

Tie raid gear power to the raid?

the idea that great gear can only come from high end raiding just brings problems. If we had good gear from every source up to a certain level but with bonus perks given to players based and restricted to the content they came from we could have progression from all sources without competition between them.

For example, a braindead easy version, divide the game into open world, dungeons, raiding and pvp. all gear has max level tiers, 1-6, you can earn gear from 1-6 in any content but gear will get bonus perks if you do dungeons/raids/pvp.
If you do pvp your gear will have pvp only bonuses, but will still be equivalent to other gears from other sources. For example if you do top end pvp you get tier 6 gear with pvp bonuses. if you mythic hard mode raids you get tier 6 with mythic raid only bonuses.
If you take that gear into dungeons it will only be tier 6 gear with no bonuses.

This way you can gear up with any and all content with predictable increases and bonuses, but to excel in any given content you need to do that content.
Bonuses are provided at every tier, so any given item could/would have bonuses that could potentially be worth an extra tier.