Was Mythic + a bad idea ?

[KOUNTERPARTS]

M+ is the root of all evil.

Funny, as I've seen people say LFR, time gating, and even Vulpera are the root(s) of all evil.

[Archy]

I 100% agree with the separate gearing progression; it's been an idea I've been floating around on other discussions so we definitely agree there.

I don't think it, but I use people's own words: many "casuals" would rather not raid at all than to deal with a guild and schedules for reasons including "because they have a life/job/family". Raiding is an experience that, to do successfully outside of straight pugging, requires group management, etching out a repeatable schedule, etc. that many self-proclaimed casuals would rather not do. Just a simple Google search on the Blizzard forums brings posts like this: ...

Raiding's not bad content, people are simply just drawn to the path of least resistance to getting gear or progression. Would you raid if you could get equivalent gear without having to deal with another X amount of players? It's not really hard to think that people wouldn't raid if they could get everything in M+, especially after looking at most of those posts and loot being a determining factor as to why.

Yeah, if loot was seperate this would not be a discussion.

But the real problem is the player mentality. There is actually no need to seperate gearing (apart from PvE/PvP) if you always get BiS by playing the content you want.
You can easily do just the things you want (not talking about borrowed power or other secondary systems here!) and ignore the rest. You don't want to do M+? Then don't do it. Find a Raid only guild, which doesn't require mythic+ of you. It won't be the fastest way but why should it be? People are so desperate to rush through things in the shortest amount of time (in a GAME) to get to a goal that doesn't really matter (gear will be replaced real soon, mounts can be bought or just farmed in a later expansion). Doing things that they don't want to do just because it's the most efficient.

You also seem to think this way if I understand you correctly. "Would you raid if you could get equivalent gear without having to deal with another X amount of players?"
If it's raiding that I enjoy then YES, of course. BiS is a nice little goal when you are doing the things you like ingame but it's so useless if you achieve it by doing it with things you don't enjoy. Because you have reached your goal now. Why should you even go in a raid (doing the thing you like) now, if your whole motivation in the first place was gear?
So it seems to me that you want to force people to raid. Why is it a problem that a lot of people dislike raiding and focus on M+ instead? Blizzard have their numbers. If people want more small group content give it to them.

[Kharnath]

The biggest issue is the the timed run aspect of it. This gogogogogoogogo, impatient mentality is the hallmark of a Millennial trait that is just ruining society as a whole.

^ This - Even back in CATA when I raided endgame this "bullish hurry up faster faster" mentality is what helped me quit for 10years I only came back cause I swore to myself I wouldn't allow myself to have that happen again, which is why I focus on solo content.

How happy was I when I discovered Island expeditions were timed.... At least I out gear them sooo not as bad.

[Archy]

I 100% agree with the separate gearing progression; it's been an idea I've been floating around on other discussions so we definitely agree there.

I don't think it, but I use people's own words: many "casuals" would rather not raid at all than to deal with a guild and schedules for reasons including "because they have a life/job/family". Raiding is an experience that, to do successfully outside of straight pugging, requires group management, etching out a repeatable schedule, etc. that many self-proclaimed casuals would rather not do. Just a simple Google search on the Blizzard forums brings posts like this: ...

Raiding's not bad content, people are simply just drawn to the path of least resistance to getting gear or progression. Would you raid if you could get equivalent gear without having to deal with another X amount of players? It's not really hard to think that people wouldn't raid if they could get everything in M+, especially after looking at most of those posts and loot being a determining factor as to why.

Yeah, if loot was seperate this would not be a discussion.

But the real problem is the player mentality. There is actually no need to seperate gearing (apart from PvE/PvP) if you always get BiS by playing the content you want.
You can easily do just the things you want (not talking about borrowed power or other secondary systems here!) and ignore the rest. You don't want to do M+? Then don't do it. Find a Raid only guild, which doesn't require mythic+ of you. It won't be the fastest way but why should it be? People are so desperate to rush through things in the shortest amount of time (in a GAME) to get to a goal that doesn't really matter (gear will be replaced real soon, mounts can be bought or just farmed in a later expansion). Doing things that they don't want to do just because it's the most efficient.

You also seem to think this way if I understand you correctly. "Would you raid if you could get equivalent gear without having to deal with another X amount of players?"
If it's raiding that I enjoy then YES, of course. BiS is a nice little goal when you are doing the things you like ingame but it's so useless if you achieve it by doing it with things you don't enjoy. Because you have reached your goal now. Why should you even go in a raid (doing the thing you like) now, if your whole motivation in the first place was gear?
So it seems to me that you want to force people to raid. Why is it a problem that a lot of people dislike raiding and focus on M+ instead? Blizzard have their numbers. If people want more small group content give it to them.

M+ is an absolute cancer on the game. I'm not surprised at all how popular it is, given the level of intellect in the type of player that M+ attracts.

It does nothing but breed toxicity, and adds an unnecessary level of complication to the game. For example...you can't even run a normal or heroic dungeon anymore without some M+ try-hard dipshit ruining the experience for everyone else. It's also the Gearscore of our times, where players have to worry about a "rating", and a 3rd party site or addon to calculate these ratings.

The biggest issue is the probably the timed run aspect of it. This gogogogogoogogo, impatient mentality is the hallmark of a Millennial trait that is just ruining society as a whole.

Yeah, I also really dislike timers in competitive scenarios. Who cares who did the fastest lap? Just being here is enough. My child is special give him a trophy Boomer/Gen X mentality right here.

Having an easy rating to check how experienced or well geared a player is a terrible idea. It's way better to just select someone random. Should really delete the whole inspect feature. It was so much better back in TBC. You just invited everybody, no gear requirement at all. Freshly dinged 70? Come with us to BT! Not having the rep for heroic? It's fine. We just wait for you to come and realize that you actually can't be here and we'll spam trade chat again looking for someone else. Grand ol' time.

[Gestopft]

It does nothing but breed toxicity

I PuG at least a dozen keys a week, and overall find it WAY less toxic than running normal or heroics.

For example...you can't even run a normal or heroic dungeon anymore without some M+ try-hard dipshit ruining the experience for everyone else.

People have been doing this since at least Wrath, if not before. It's got absolutely nothing to do with M+

It's also the Gearscore of our times, where players have to worry about a "rating", and a 3rd party site or addon to calculate these ratings.

Before Gearscore, group leaders would do armory checks, which a) took way longer, and b) didn't actually make it easier to get into groups (for the people who complain about Gearscore/IO/etc).

The biggest issue is the probably the timed run aspect of it. This gogogogogoogogo, impatient mentality is the hallmark of a Millennial trait that is just ruining society as a whole.

The vast majority of M+ PuGs don't approach a key the way an overgeared tank pulls a normal dungeon (because unlike being overgeared in a normal, mobs in keys can actually splat you). Yeah, you don't take breaks between pulls unless the healer needs mana, and sometimes you do larger pulls when it's safe, but honestly most groups pull fairly "normally," and still do just fine. There are plenty of groups that don't even care about the timer, and if you're below, say, +15, you can time pretty easily anyway as long as most people do decent DPS and know what to interrupt etc. If the group plays pretty cleanly and isn't severely undergeared, the timer isn't usually big issue at lower-mid key levels. It's not until you get to high keys where you have to get aggressive to time it.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

M+ is an absolute cancer on the game. I'm not surprised at all how popular it is, given the level of intellect in the type of player that M+ attracts.

It does nothing but breed toxicity, and adds an unnecessary level of complication to the game. For example...you can't even run a normal or heroic dungeon anymore without some M+ try-hard dipshit ruining the experience for everyone else. It's also the Gearscore of our times, where players have to worry about a "rating", and a 3rd party site or addon to calculate these ratings.

The biggest issue is the probably the timed run aspect of it. This gogogogogoogogo, impatient mentality is the hallmark of a Millennial trait that is just ruining society as a whole.

Then kick that player and report, or start your own group using the LFG tool/guild.

[odamienskii]

Travel in Vanilla was completely different. Zones were built different.

Anyway, I have enjoyed HCs in TBC or Mythic Dungeons in WoD more than I have enjoyed M+ in any expansion. The timer is an annoying feature, it was OK in the MoP dungeon challenges, but these things have been a feature you do once on a character and don't have to grind ever again and can play an alt to get your gold ratings. There is too much grind and gear gets useless too fast. You never get the feeling that you have "completed" a character and can move on to another.

They did a similar thing in reputations with paragon chests. All because some no-lifers whine about "nothing to do in the game" after they binge on the content.

- - - Updated - - -



Sounds like you have some ego problems. The segregation of WoW began when they began introducing layers of difficulties, not the other way around.

No ego dude honestly, i just wanted to play with players of my level, thats all, i didnt want to be stuck with players that have no idea when to use a defensive. some of them tried bless them, but at the wrong times, as a healer you see everything, you see when the party misses an interupt, you see when a player has a debuff and doesnt use a defensive, you see when someone is constantly standing in stuff and believe me at the higher end of the m+ ladder when EVERYONE in the party is judging your dps its downright enfuriating when you cover someones lack of skill the entire run only for them to turn around and mention your damage. you respond "if you wasnt such a retard standing in everything rawdog eating everything i would have more gcds free to do dps" its a party of casuals so they gang up together call you noob and kick.

If a mage uses iceblock on bleed last boss forget the dungeons name its 1gcd for him, if he doesnt, the healer has to repeatidly heal him instead of casting dps spells. these casuals dont understand that, thats why segregation should exist. because those players shouldnt have the right to be in my party when they are that bad.

They watch top level streams and notice the healer doing 4/5k dps, what they dont notice is if you watch the healthbars they barely move and overall the healer is doing less hps than dps because there is nothing to heal, why??? because the other 4 players in the party know the importance of being "healable" at that level. majority of players before i quit were not healable at all, not only were they set up to rawdog eat everything to the face but they also were standing in everything on top of that cluelessness. why the hell should i be forced to play with these kind of players? because its there game too???? well guess what, it WAS my game too, but sod that, they are welcome to it.

Which is what the majority of "i used to have loads of really good players on my bnet" have said/done. only difference is i voice my opinion while they just left without saying anything. truth hurts, good players dont want to play with casuals, call it ego if you want, i call it not wanting to have your time wasted by crap you learnt 7 years ago, the content is hard enough when you get to a certain level even ifthe players are good, add a bad player? keys dead before it begins.... but thats ok!!! its just a social game!!! at least you can have fun with "friends"

Friends you will never even share a coffee with who live 600 miles away. cant have good players running around showing the bad players that they are bad can we, would upset all the friends.

Heres an idea... SEPERATE THEM SO BOTH TYPES OF PLAYERS CAN ENJOY THE GAME, or dont, just mash them all together and watch as all the better players leave because they cant take having there time wasted anymore.

[epigramx]

Arena PVP has had troubles with spec representation at the highest level since it was introduced back in BC, but you're not seeing people call for an end to arena because of that.

The solution is to balance as close as possible, not kill off a beloved game mode.

That was a very bad argument, because I'm gonna tell you: yes: arena ALSO has the problem of extremist metas; obviously: battlegrounds are a way more complete gametype for a game of 12 classes and 36 (?) specs; it's even more easily proven there because the smaller the arena: the more ludicrous it becomes: e.g. 3 v 3 or 2 v 2 is usually devastated without healing (or whatever metas they use now (I don't pvp anymore)).

Yes: the solution is to balance it as much as possible; balance the game that is; keep 5man for those who like it but don't be excessive with its usage and reduce its instances by a couple; use them to make a 10man hard mode set of instances instead to have an inbetween the 20man and 5man hard mode gametypes as a more balanced middle-ground (and it solves all those people wanting 10man back too).

[Argorwal]

That was a very bad argument, because I'm gonna tell you: yes: arena ALSO has the problem of extremist metas; obviously: battlegrounds are a way more complete gametype for a game of 12 classes and 36 (?) specs; it's even more easily proven there because the smaller the arena: the more ludicrous it becomes: e.g. 3 v 3 or 2 v 2 is usually devastated without healing (or whatever metas they use now (I don't pvp anymore)).

Yes: the solution is to balance it as much as possible; balance the game that is; keep 5man for those who like it but don't be excessive with its usage and reduce its instances by a couple; use them to make a 10man hard mode set of instances instead to have an inbetween the 20man and 5man hard mode gametypes as a more balanced middle-ground (and it solves all those people wanting 10man back too).

All 36 specs have timed a +25 or higher when the gear rewards cap at a +15.

There is nothing all resembling a tight meta for the actual masses that partake in mythic+, and ripping that part of the game away because of a handful of people playing +28 or higher keys are class stacking is the kind of moronic thinking only viewable on websites like this one.

[epigramx]

All 36 specs have timed a +25 or higher

because of a handful of people playing +28

That's a terrible argument. That's like saying we delete 20man from the game and we only have say .3man and you come here and say "but all classes killed mythic sylvanas on the 3man: that proves 3man has no issues of class representation VS 20man"; you can tell easily that argument does not hold up; you have to support why 5man has no issues over bigger gametypes in a game of a dozen of classes.

Let alone "just because 28... when 25.." is in itself a weak starting point; 28 is EXTREMELY harder than 25; it's very telling about what kind of power certain metas can have over a more general setup.

[Argorwal]

That's a terrible argument. That's like saying we delete 20man from the game and we only have say .3man and you come here and say "but all classes killed mythic sylvanas on the 3man: that proves 3man has no issues of class representation VS 20man"; you can tell easily that argument does not hold up; you have to support why 5man has no issues over bigger gametypes in a game of a dozen of classes.

Let alone "just because 28... when 25.." is in itself a weak starting point; 28 is EXTREMELY harder than 25; it's very telling about what kind of power certain metas can have over a more general setup.

Because they are dungeons, and dungeons are 5 mans in WoW. 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. One group.

That’s it.

Multiple groups for content is a raid. 10-30 man.

Why crap on people that want to do 5 mans?

And if a 28 is extremely harder than a 25, imagine how much harder a 25 is than a 15 which is wear the gear stops.

[epigramx]

Because they are dungeons, and dungeons are 5 mans in WoW.

That's not an argument in that discussion; that's just an obvious statement we all agree with; you have to support why 5man is not problematic in terms of setups that produce extremist metas when it's in a game of 12 classes.

And I'm not telling you to delete 5man; keep 5man; just devs and people shouldn't put it on a pedestal with a large amount of instances and taking its competition more seriously than it deserves.

One of the best features of 10.x would be to bring 10man mythic back; on its own unique instances; that way we'll have a good middle ground between big 20man and tiny 5.

[Nzx]

And here we are ... 14 pages later.

Jesus fucking wept. Complete with the OP claiming that running dungeons for transmog is "content", except in WoW I guess because that would mean hundreds of dungeons + raids are "content" and that would conflict with the whole Blizzard bad, ff14 good thing he's got going on.

These forums are absolutely atrocious for this sort of shit. There's this huge crowd of muppets with 10k+ posts each who spend their entire lives on here talking about how terrible WoW is and how it was better in insert x expansion that was widely shit on when it was current and how FF14 is the literal garden of Eden and a perfect triumph of game design and made by perfect developers (of course we just totally ignore the sexual abuse allegations against SquareEnix because YoshiP good), and then a handful of people who disagree with them and enjoy WoW for what it is, and it invariably just ends up in page after page of circlejerking bullshit interspersed with just enough rational rebukes of the absurd premise of near every thread to keep it going.

edited to add:
When will people shut the fuck up about the timer? You can pull every dungeon one pack at a time and skip nothing and beat the timer on every single dungeon. If all you want to do is pretend you're pushing yourself skillwise and spend three hours in a dungeon waiting for lust on every single pack, you can do that, there's literally nothing whatsoever stopping you. If there are so many people like you who think the timer is "toxic" you shouldn't have any trouble at all finding four other people who want to waste their time as well, so why are you complaining? Run to the dungeon on your ground mount for all that sweet "immersion" if you really want to. No one is stopping you except yourself.

[oplawlz]

It seems to me the real answer is to just have valor/honor and let players get it however they want at a rate adjusted to the difficulty of the content. Everyone wins.

[epigramx]

It seems to me the real answer is to just have valor/honor and let players get it however they want at a rate adjusted to the difficulty of the content. Everyone wins.

Nah, that would make gear from harder bosses be taken with kills from easier bosses which is unfair. They should have badges/points/whatever and if you collect 3 from a boss you can pick any item from their loot table (1 per week and it replaces the current vault version).

[shise]

It was the best addition this game ever had. It literally revived World of Warcraft.

Worse* and killed* would be the most fitting (on it´s current format)

All it is is a recycle system of dungeons with nothing new to offer.
It enables toxicity and gives players a reason to slack and not raid.

Way to fix it would be easy tho: remove the secured end game quality loot from it. Raids are there for a reason. M+ is all about quick runs for loot. That´s not the spirit of WoW

[jeezusisacasual]

M+ is an absolute cancer on the game. I'm not surprised at all how popular it is, given the level of intellect in the type of player that M+ attracts.

It does nothing but breed toxicity, and adds an unnecessary level of complication to the game. For example...you can't even run a normal or heroic dungeon anymore without some M+ try-hard dipshit ruining the experience for everyone else. It's also the Gearscore of our times, where players have to worry about a "rating", and a 3rd party site or addon to calculate these ratings.

The biggest issue is the probably the timed run aspect of it. This gogogogogoogogo, impatient mentality is the hallmark of a Millennial trait that is just ruining society as a whole.

I would say that Mythic plus allows you to choose what end game content you want to do, i hated having to raid at a specific times each week where as i can do a 45 min run a few times a week to get items equal to that of those who choose to raid. The rating is now built into the game so you dont need an add-on either. Raiding has lost a large amount of appeal from not just the scheduling thing either.

[paxen]

That was a very bad argument, because I'm gonna tell you: yes: arena ALSO has the problem of extremist metas; obviously: battlegrounds are a way more complete gametype for a game of 12 classes and 36 (?) specs; it's even more easily proven there because the smaller the arena: the more ludicrous it becomes: e.g. 3 v 3 or 2 v 2 is usually devastated without healing (or whatever metas they use now (I don't pvp anymore)).

Read my argument again. I SAID that arenas have the same problem. The point you missed was that arena is still around 15 years later and very popular despite this. Your argument that "balance is harder at small group levels" does not at all give any weight to your following "...and therefore these small sizes should be abolished".

[epigramx]

Read my argument again. I SAID that arenas have the same problem. The point you missed was that arena is still around 15 years later and very popular despite this. Your argument that "balance is harder at small group levels" does not at all give any weight to your following "...and therefore these small sizes should be abolished".

You are responding to an imaginary person. I never said to be abolished; keep the 5mans and the 2v2 arenas; they are not terrible and people like them.

I said it's overrated when someone said it's the best thing ever added to the game; even 20man has the issue but less so; readd 10man inbetween.

[T-34]

Then kick that player and report, or start your own group using the LFG tool/guild.

Sorry, but you can't suggest that people should take responsibility for their in-game experience in their own hands!
It is the responsibility and duty of other players to play like I WANT and to invite ME when I WANT.
And I can play just like I WANT and all other players should accept and encourage me in how I PLAY.