Horrible ambassadors...

[m4Zzo928]

I've been lurking around some Youtubers and Twitch streamers just checking the game out again, as I might return, and something I realized was how selfish, self righteous, and anti-wow these influencers can be. Also extremely negative, and no doubt that has to do with baiting clicks, but I think it's had a very big impact on the health of the game. Am I saying there's nothing wrong with the game? No, but one big difference I see is in these popular personalities acting as if the game is developed for them personally, and are very jaded, elitist, and it's just a very bad look for the game overall. Instead of fostering players, they really just turn people off of the game. Yea, I know, "who watches this, and just don't watch them it doesn't matter, right?" I think it's been huge for a decade now, and I'm seeing the result in the community, when these fools act like privileged children in the game, others follow suit and act like it's ok. Wow is at it's best when there's a healthy community integration, and that doesn't mean a perfect wow world, it just means the people actually want to play to have fun with each other, and not ram it into the ground because it's not what they want. It's actually gross. There was so many good ambassadors of the game early in wow's life. These days, it's petulant children looking to make a buck, and not giving a damn about the game.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

To be fair this forum doesn't do a great job turning people onto WoW either.

Might just be a problem with the game itself.

[Echo of Soul]

They created systems and game modes that promote toxicity. It's no wonder that the community and its content creators are toxic.

[Lochton]

I've been lurking around some Youtubers and Twitch streamers just checking the game out again, as I might return, and something I realized was how selfish, self righteous, and anti-wow these influencers can be. Also extremely negative, and no doubt that has to do with baiting clicks, but I think it's had a very big impact on the health of the game. Am I saying there's nothing wrong with the game? No, but one big difference I see is in these popular personalities acting as if the game is developed for them personally, and are very jaded, elitist, and it's just a very bad look for the game overall. Instead of fostering players, they really just turn people off of the game. Yea, I know, "who watches this, and just don't watch them it doesn't matter, right?" I think it's been huge for a decade now, and I'm seeing the result in the community, when these fools act like privileged children in the game, others follow suit and act like it's ok. Wow is at it's best when there's a healthy community integration, and that doesn't mean a perfect wow world, it just means the people actually want to play to have fun with each other, and not ram it into the ground because it's not what they want. It's actually gross. There was so many good ambassadors of the game early in wow's life. These days, it's petulant children looking to make a buck, and not giving a damn about the game.

Influences have never really been great for the game, or many other games, many have even left WoW but now taking a whole different, uncomfortable behavior on other games. As for our dear council, it does not feel like it has been selected with a voice for everyone.

[m4Zzo928]

They created systems and game modes that promote toxicity. It's no wonder that the community and its content creators are toxic.

How so? I don't believe it's Blizzards fault for the community, even though I think they haven't made the best expansions. How are they supposed to control it's players? That's my point is there used to be more positive people who just had fun in the game. These days it's gross, it's the only way to describe it, just disgusting cancerous separation.

[Icecat]

I've been lurking around some Youtubers and Twitch streamers just checking the game out again, as I might return, and something I realized was how selfish, self righteous, and anti-wow these influencers can be. Also extremely negative, and no doubt that has to do with baiting clicks, but I think it's had a very big impact on the health of the game. Am I saying there's nothing wrong with the game? No, but one big difference I see is in these popular personalities acting as if the game is developed for them personally, and are very jaded, elitist, and it's just a very bad look for the game overall. Instead of fostering players, they really just turn people off of the game. Yea, I know, "who watches this, and just don't watch them it doesn't matter, right?" I think it's been huge for a decade now, and I'm seeing the result in the community, when these fools act like privileged children in the game, others follow suit and act like it's ok. Wow is at it's best when there's a healthy community integration, and that doesn't mean a perfect wow world, it just means the people actually want to play to have fun with each other, and not ram it into the ground because it's not what they want. It's actually gross. There was so many good ambassadors of the game early in wow's life. These days, it's petulant children looking to make a buck, and not giving a damn about the game.

What are you expecting? You know this has been one of the worst years for Blizzard's PR ever, right? Even its most diehard shills are put off by the state of things.

And just to be clear, you're talking about Asmongold and Bellular, right? The majority of content creators that cover the game are still fairly positive about it, and you can find them just by searching on YouTube.

- - - Updated - - -

How so? I don't believe it's Blizzards fault for the community, even though I think they haven't made the best expansions. How are they supposed to control it's players? That's my point is there used to be more positive people who just had fun in the game. These days it's gross, it's the only way to describe it, just disgusting cancerous separation.

Blizzard is definitely 100% responsible for their community - especially their toxic in-game ones.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The WoW community is demoralized. They're the battered housewife, beaten by Blizzard every day. Years of bad service from Blizzard. Time after time again, Blizzard announces a system and says that they're open to feedback. The community provides feedback. The feedback is ignored and Blizzard releases the broken unfun system anyway. Community is appalled. Then Blizzard has the gall to blame their own paying customers for their broken unfun product, saying "well if only our playerbase had told us this was bad, we would've fixed it!". Blizzard has done this for 7 years straight. By this point pretty much everyone is salty (except the most hardcore WoW defenders).

[m4Zzo928]

What are you expecting? You know this has been one of the worst years for Blizzard's PR ever, right? Even its most diehard shills are put off by the state of things.

And just to be clear, you're talking about Asmongold and Bellular, right? The majority of content creators that cover the game are still fairly positive about it, and you can find them just by searching on YouTube.

- - - Updated - - -


Blizzard is definitely 100% responsible for their community - especially their toxic in-game ones.

I don't disagree with that. I left the game a while ago because of this, but because of the recent changes, I believe the workers are going to be taken care of much better, and so I'll support that, but I'm talking less about ant-blizzard, and more about anti-wow, and their attitudes about the game. To me you can't separate community from wow. The two are intertwined, and it's what makes it what it is, and if that community is poisoned, then the whole game is sick. I'll ask again though how is it solely Blizzards fault the community is like this? If it's because they allowed more solo play, I'd have to disagree with that assessment.

- - - Updated - - -

The WoW community is demoralized. They're the battered housewife, beaten by Blizzard every day. Years of bad service from Blizzard. Time after time again, Blizzard announces a system and says that they're open to feedback. The community provides feedback. The feedback is ignored and Blizzard releases the broken unfun system anyway. Community is appalled. Then Blizzard has the gall to blame their own paying customers for their broken unfun product, saying "well if only our playerbase had told us this was bad, we would've fixed it!". Blizzard has done this for 7 years straight. By this point pretty much everyone is salty (except the most hardcore WoW defenders).

Well, I'm not defending Wow here, as an ex wow player, I'm looking in at a different angle, and seeing how popular wow youtubers and streamers have a big responsibility to the community of the game. Does that mean don't mention anything bad about the game? No, of course not, but it's certainly not good to foster negativity towards the game, how the heck is that going to help? If the game isn't enjoyable, then give your feedback, and take a break, that's the only thing to do, but I think these players are using wow as a day job, trying to make a buck off of it, and projecting bad behavior. Nobody cares about being a role model, or good influence anymore, it's me me me, not us.

[Alanar]

The WoW community is demoralized. They're the battered housewife, beaten by Blizzard every day. Years of bad service from Blizzard. Time after time again, Blizzard announces a system and says that they're open to feedback. The community provides feedback. The feedback is ignored and Blizzard releases the broken unfun system anyway. Community is appalled. Then Blizzard has the gall to blame their own paying customers for their broken unfun product, saying "well if only our playerbase had told us this was bad, we would've fixed it!". Blizzard has done this for 7 years straight. By this point pretty much everyone is salty (except the most hardcore WoW defenders).

You can't dissagree with this, I mean every year we had the same talk about lessons learned and we do better, to repeat after repeat and doing the same thing for years.

I was done with it, but Shadowlands showed us perfectly that the system and so called choice is no where to be found and like you said feedback ignored. Most people like me play this game for a very long time.. at some point the stretch is gone. 10.0 for example has to be a banger in terms of features and FUN levels, I don't think many players will continue down that path of the same thing again. Maybe even diehands will leave by then.

[T-34]

I don't disagree with that. I left the game a while ago because of this, but because of the recent changes, I believe the workers are going to be taken care of much better, and so I'll support that, but I'm talking less about ant-blizzard, and more about anti-wow, and their attitudes about the game. To me you can't separate community from wow. The two are intertwined, and it's what makes it what it is, and if that community is poisoned, then the whole game is sick. I'll ask again though how is it solely Blizzards fault the community is like this? If it's because they allowed more solo play, I'd have to disagree with that assessment.

There is no "community".
There is a wide variety of players that play the game for various reasons.
There is also a huge amount of players that don't follow the game on YouTube and who don't give one flying f... about what is going on at Blizzard.
They just care whether the game entertains them or not.

"Community" is a word that is often (mis)used when a certain group wants to monopolize a subject = If you don't agree with the "narrative" of the "community" then you are a toxic a-hole.
YouTubers are a prime example of the abuse of the word "community".

Added:
MMO-Champion is a prime example of various small groups that think that they represent the "community" = the whole playerbase. Which of course is deeply absurd.

[m4Zzo928]

You can't dissagree with this, I mean every year we had the same talk about lessons learned and we do better, to repeat after repeat and doing the same thing for years.

I was done with it, but Shadowlands showed us perfectly that the system and so called choice is no where to be found and like you said feedback ignored. Most people like me play this game for a very long time.. at some point the stretch is gone. 10.0 for example has to be a banger in terms of features and FUN levels, I don't think many players will continue down that path of the same thing again. Maybe even diehands will leave by then.

Having studied philosophy, I understand game theory, and irl games that are played at various layers of our reality. The reality is Wow can't appease everyone, it's impossible, they only create something that will appeal to the widest demographic they can, and sometimes they get it right, and sometimes they don't, sometimes it's right for half a year, sometimes it's bad for a year. It's a guess, and if anyone else noticed too, they flip flop ideas, over and over, like a cycle, and it's usually followed by the opposite of what a previous expansion's systems were. More complicated systems followed by less complicated systems, more powerful classes followed by less powerful classes. It's a cycle, pendulum swing, and there's no other game to play here, it's the best one for a long term game. One may say they just have to do "this" and stick with it, but guaranteed that would be the worst thing, and shorten the lifespan significantly.

So the communication Blizzard management has given to the community has been bad, I completely agree, and I hope it gets cleaned up. a proper understanding of the game cycle would be better just explained and accepted for people who want to play the game.

[Icecat]

I don't disagree with that. I left the game a while ago because of this, but because of the recent changes, I believe the workers are going to be taken care of much better, and so I'll support that, but I'm talking less about ant-blizzard, and more about anti-wow, and their attitudes about the game. To me you can't separate community from wow. The two are intertwined, and it's what makes it what it is, and if that community is poisoned, then the whole game is sick. I'll ask again though how is it solely Blizzards fault the community is like this? If it's because they allowed more solo play, I'd have to disagree with that assessment.

Especially now that more WoW refugees have played ffxiv, the community here seems to have a clearer idea of how the mechanics incur toxicity more than cooperation. The game is super punishing, timegatey, generally caters more and more to an elitist mindset, they've done very little to address and crack down on bad actors in-game. These are just off the top of my head - there's way more. I agree with you that the work environment will change for the better, but I've personally seen zero indication that the developers are actively trying to build lasting bridges - the community council is just more proof that they're terrified of us. They don't engage with us. Ion doesn't even do interviews anymore, and he has no social presence. It's like no one is even running this thing.

I mean, that's just my own opinion, though. No one can speak for the whole community, right? But in general, the players are disenfranchised. There's nothing particularly unifying about this game world or community other than this botched storyline and our frustration with Blizzard.

But again, you might just be looking in the wrong places. There are probably tons of in-game communities and bubbles that are still really positive about the game and have fun every day.

[Dellis0991]

There is no "community".
There is a wide variety of players that play the game for various reasons.
There is also a huge amount of players that don't follow the game on YouTube and who don't give one flying f... about what is going on at Blizzard.
They just care whether the game entertains them or not.

"Community" is a word that is often (mis)used when a certain group wants to monopolize a subject = If you don't agree with the "narrative" of the "community" then you are a toxic a-hole.
YouTubers are a prime example of the abuse of the word "community".

Added:
MMO-Champion is a prime example of various small groups that think that they represent the "community" = the whole playerbase. Which of course is deeply absurd.

^This pretty much sums it up.

[m4Zzo928]

Especially now that more WoW refugees have played ffxiv, the community seems to have a clearer idea of how the mechanics incur toxicity more than cooperation. The game is super punishing, timegatey, generally caters more and more to an elitist mindset, they've done very little to address and crack down on bad actors in-game. These are just off the top of my head - there's way more. I agree with you that the work environment will change for the better, but I've personally seen zero indication that the developers are actively trying to build lasting bridges - the community council is just more proof that they're terrified of us. They don't engage with us. Ion doesn't even do interviews anymore, and he has no social presence. It's like no one is even running this thing.

I mean, that's just my own opinion, though. No one can speak for the whole community, right? But in general, the players are disenfranchised. There's nothing particularly unifying about this game world or community other than this botched storyline and our frustration with Blizzard.

But again, you might just be looking in the wrong places. There are probably tons of in-game communities and bubbles that are still really positive about the game and have fun every day.

Maybe those people going to a different game is exactly what's good for them, and good for WoW. I'm sure there's good communities in the game. On my realm there's still the same people playing since vanilla, like a family lol. I just think man, what if the game is still that game we love, but like some disease the people changed. If there's an option to play with people, along with solo. I can't agree that this would be the reason for players turning sour in the game. I think there's a host of reasons Wow players become toxic, and nothing in solo play forces somebody to be that.

[Relapses]

So the communication Blizzard management has given to the community has been bad, I completely agree, and I hope it gets cleaned up. a proper understanding of the game cycle would be better just explained and accepted for people who want to play the game.

They're definitely making headway on this front with the 9.1.5 and 9.2 development rollout. Communication is better now than it was when GC was in charge. In general, I think this community rarely deserves to be communicated with but it does seem to be improving.

Personally, I just wish the people who see themselves as victims of Blizzard's game design decisions ("WoW refugees," what a ridiculous fucking concept) would just accept the game has changed and find something else to do instead of whining constantly on these forums about how the game isn't FFXIV with a WoW skin slapped on it. The sooner these people move on, the sooner the audience for the people you mentioned in the OP will dry up. But for now it seems to be a self-perpetuating hate machine, one which won't slow down until these people get bored of FFXIV the same way they got bored of WoW.

[m4Zzo928]

There is no "community".
There is a wide variety of players that play the game for various reasons.

I'm not going to call anyone toxic who disagrees with me. Im reserving that word for actually disgusting behavior, but there most certainly is community in the game. That doesn't mean the whole realm is friends. It means that there's guilds that people interact with each other in, and usually make friends. Just because some prefer solo, and some prefer group doesn't negate group. Even random groups are community, not a very organized community, but one at that. Pvp is community. Those not willing to communicate in the game have that right, but from what I see. It's these people who are the negative ones who just blame Blizzard for their inability to even be civil to others.

[Alanar]

Having studied philosophy, I understand game theory, and irl games that are played at various layers of our reality. The reality is Wow can't appease everyone, it's impossible, they only create something that will appeal to the widest demographic they can, and sometimes they get it right, and sometimes they don't, sometimes it's right for half a year, sometimes it's bad for a year. It's a guess, and if anyone else noticed too, they flip flop ideas, over and over, like a cycle, and it's usually followed by the opposite of what a previous expansion's systems were. More complicated systems followed by less complicated systems, more powerful classes followed by less powerful classes. It's a cycle, pendulum swing, and there's no other game to play here, it's the best one for a long term game. One may say they just have to do "this" and stick with it, but guaranteed that would be the worst thing, and shorten the lifespan significantly.

So the communication Blizzard management has given to the community has been bad, I completely agree, and I hope it gets cleaned up. a proper understanding of the game cycle would be better just explained and accepted for people who want to play the game.

I see where you come from and I agree it's impossible please everyone if you will, but you got to understand that for the big majority who play the game for a long time ,probably casually up until couple of years so 12 y+ for sure, that it has been a repeat of making the same mistakes in front of everyone for years and this will reach a point where people will just leave. Most people just want to have a fun game and wow that has been around for a long time seems to have trouble staying up to date in terms of features, things we can do or generally having fun in the game. Most importantly they feel very 180 of what fans want, out of touch for couple of years now.

Like you said, the communication could have been way better and fans would probably understand it more, but fans weren't quiet and were actually very loud on feedback for years.. I understand why most people feel ignored and at some point the stretch is gone. No matter the stupid cycle, look what the community wants, feed from it and be active in terms of communications. Having a 5 month wait time before a broken spell is fixed is beyond stupid for example, they need to act faster to win trust imo. this is just an example tho.

There was a very short time were some blue showed up randomly and started addins some wishes for Nightborne and void elves, people felt heard and started to become active. Again they dropped the ball and went quiet... They had this brief thing going and fans got hooked for playing other races again. Only to vanish shortly after. Look how easy it is to please the community, it's not hard, they just need to get rid of that political way of doing things around the office. I know how it goes, 20 f people need to pee on the subject before something comes through. It's idiotic when talking about things like a new beard for humans or wanting npc things for Nightborne. It's the culture that makes it hard to do things is my guess. Not fixing a certain spell for some time could also mean several reasons ofc as we know from past experience.

I am trying to look at this as casual as possible, because lets assume most didn't study that or know the ins and outs of game theory and since most players are exactly that. And still It's becoming increasingly difficult to not see the major flaws.

[Delever]

They're definitely making headway on this front with the 9.1.5 and 9.2 development rollout. Communication is better now than it was when GC was in charge. In general, I think this community rarely deserves to be communicated with but it does seem to be improving.

Personally, I just wish the people who see themselves as victims of Blizzard's game design decisions ("WoW refugees," what a ridiculous fucking concept) would just accept the game has changed and find something else to do instead of whining constantly on these forums about how the game isn't FFXIV with a WoW skin slapped on it. The sooner these people move on, the sooner the audience for the people you mentioned in the OP will dry up. But for now it seems to be a self-perpetuating hate machine, one which won't slow down until these people get bored of FFXIV the same way they got bored of WoW.

Didnt even take 1 page for the shilliest of Blizzard shills to come into the thread bringing in XIV without anyone even having mentioned it. You somehow manage to outdo yourself every time.
Also I guess you ve been getting your memory wiped every 2 years by the Men in Black flashlight because this communication level has been the same the past 3 expansions at around the same time (aka the end of the expansion) only to return again to not listening to any feedback for the first half of their next expansion while blaming everything on the community.
But Relapses must CONSOOM.

[m4Zzo928]

but fans weren't quiet and were actually very loud on feedback for years.. I understand why most people feel ignored and at some point the stretch is gone. No matter the stupid cycle, look what the community wants, feed from it and be active in terms of communications. Having a 5 month wait time before a broken spell is fixed is gone for example, they need to act faster to win trust imo. this is just an example tho.

It's not that easy, and again looking at it from the point of view that it can't be everyone's ideal is important. Strong feedback is just fine, but strong feedback with the idea that it's just going to be accepted is rather odd imo. We're not developing the game, and my gosh just take a step back and imagine thousands if not millions with the same sort of strong feedback. There's most likely strong feedback in the opposite direction of those being loudly vocal about it. You can't cater to a small subset of the community, that'd be a fatal flaw. Like I said, they try, and don't get everything right, but some things they usually do right, so their is a small evolution in the game. Games have bugs but if they are game breaking there's no excuse, I agree with that completely.

[Relapses]

Didnt even take 1 page for the shilliest of Blizzard shills to come into the thread bringing in XIV without anyone even having mentioned it. You somehow manage to outdo yourself every time.
Also I guess you ve been getting your memory wiped every 2 years by the Men in Black flashlight because this communication level has been the same the past 3 expansions at around the same time (aka the end of the expansion) only to return again to not listening to any feedback for the first half of their next expansion while blaming everything on the community.
But Relapses must CONSOOM.

Yeah, communication sucks because people like to hang onto every word Blizzard says and take them as wholesale promises of things they never said then when their imaginary pony never materializes, use the fact that their promised pony didn't get delivered as an excuse to issue death threats to the developers on Twitter. I don't blame the developers for not communicating with a community that does shit like that. I wouldn't want to communicate with such a community either. That's what I mean when I say we don't deserve communication.

As for the FFXIV bit, you needn't stray further than the comments section of any Bellular video (y'know, the topic of discussion) to see pages upon pages of self-congratulating FFXIV players giving themselves high fives for sticking to the "the man" Blizzard by deciding to consume a slightly more Japanese version of the same product. I apologize for saying the quiet part out loud.