(Leak?) Redshirt guy finds release date, main villain and allied race with preorder

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Oh for sure I fully expect chrom and Gala to appear. I'm just convinced Muro is the final. Since w/e time shenanigans he pulls is gonna bring Yrel to us to spark 11.0.

W/e happens with Turalyon, Calia, and Loredron during DF is gonna seed the plot points of 11.0.

Yrel is going to be the match. But we need Murozond to light her up.

Good thing we got a dragon expansion next.

Why would Murozond even bother summoning Yrel. There has to be a reason to why other then expansion setup.

[rhorle]

To be honest, the whole expansion has room for Galakrond, Chromatus and Murozond all being feature villains in the expansion. Galakrond and Murozond have been mentioned by name in interviews though.

The problem with Murozond is that it becomes Old God related and sort of ruins the theme of the expansion not being about "Cosmic" stuff. Sure Old Gods have been present in basic WoW stuff but they are still technically cosmic and have been used so many times they are kind of boring. Sure it is always possible that Blizzard distances the Infinite Flight from the Old Gods as new lore is created but it is going to be hard to explain why they worked to bring about the Hour of Twilight if they weren't aligned with out a little bit of a ret con.

[Triceron]

The problem with Murozond is that it becomes Old God related and sort of ruins the theme of the expansion not being about "Cosmic" stuff. Sure Old Gods have been present in basic WoW stuff but they are still technically cosmic and have been used so many times they are kind of boring. Sure it is always possible that Blizzard distances the Infinite Flight from the Old Gods as new lore is created but it is going to be hard to explain why they worked to bring about the Hour of Twilight if they weren't aligned with out a little bit of a ret con.

To be honest, you don't really know that.

We don't know the true origins of Murozond. If they want to say 'Well it wasn't just Old God, it was actually direct intervention of the Void Lords' then they could absolutely do that and it could be a way to introduce a true first look at a Void Lord agent.

Just because he has a connection to Old Gods doesn't mean they have to stick with that as his origin. Old Gods still serve Void Lords, after all.

[Le Conceptuel]

Can't wait for left handed elves.

Those are actually a thing in Elder Scrolls lore.

[rhorle]

We don't know the true origins of Murozond. If they want to say 'Well it wasn't just Old God, it was actually direct intervention of the Void Lords' then they could absolutely do that and it could be a way to introduce a true first look at a Void Lord agent.

Which still brings us to the expansion being about the greater cosmic forces which is something they keep saying is not a focus of Dragonflight.

[Triceron]

Which still brings us to the expansion being about the greater cosmic forces which is something they keep saying is not a focus of Dragonflight.

Unless it's as an end boss.

by a 10.3 (or 10.2 if they are going with Shadowlands tiering moving forward) the focus of Dragon Isles themes would have been mostly done with, much like how MoP had plenty of Pandaria focus until the last raid which was back to the main Garrosh plot. The end raids usually have a connection to future plot lines too, like Siege of Orgrimmar leading into Garrosh's Iron Horde of WoD, WoD's ending fighting Archimonde and Gul'dan leading to Legion, and Legion's ending leading to Azerite which kickstarts the BFA war.

Dragonflight can focus on all things Dragonflight everything in between 10.0 and 10.3. Just having a cosmic connection doesn't mean suddenly everything in Dragonflight is cosmic. A Murozond fight is still very much rooted in Dragon themes.

[Le Conceptuel]

The problem with Murozond is that it becomes Old God related and sort of ruins the theme of the expansion not being about "Cosmic" stuff. Sure Old Gods have been present in basic WoW stuff but they are still technically cosmic and have been used so many times they are kind of boring. Sure it is always possible that Blizzard distances the Infinite Flight from the Old Gods as new lore is created but it is going to be hard to explain why they worked to bring about the Hour of Twilight if they weren't aligned with out a little bit of a ret con.

I always took the Infinite Dragonflight's intentions to be their own—although the Old Gods may have been responsible for Nozdormu's corruption, we have no way of surely knowing whether or not they actually implanted his motives in him. It may not have even been a strictly-intentional transformation on their part. The Old Gods are sometimes passive in their influence, so it isn't impossible nor implausible that although they have responsibility for Nozdormu they have no authority over him.

I always thought the motive of the Infinite Dragonflight was fairly straightforward—they want to rewrite history in a "better" way. Save for squatting in the End Times, they never really seemed to show any particular devotion to the idea of causing the Hour of Twilight. It always seemed to me like they were simply misguided, making alterations to time for the sake of deontological moral gain. It contrasts them well with the utilitarian Bronze Dragonflight, who are generally wiser and more mature—consequently, the Bronze Dragonflight understand that it's more important to preserve the timeline than to make small changes that seem to be better in the short-term but are actually considerably worse.

A good example of this is trying to prevent the summoning of the Orcs to Azeroth in Black Morass. In the short-term, this was a very good thing—it preserved Azeroth from the influence of the Legion and Horde, undoubtedly saved countless innocent lives, and was generally a good thing for everybody involved. However, it is also possible that without the First and Second Wars to pave the way for the Third, an active Legion invasion could easily steamroll the Night Elves when it eventually came, even if they would be greatly delayed. This is an example of how the Infinite Dragonflight operate on a deontological ethical system—they believe that what is good should be done, no matter the long-term consequences (assuming they even recognize them at all). They will prevent events which had terrible short-term consequences but were greatly important to the preservation of Azeroth or even the universe itself in the long-term.

[rhorle]

Unless it's as an end boss.

An end boss for an expansion will still make that expansion focused on a cosmic threat because that end boss and the danger they represent has to be connected to the story of the expansion. Mists of Pandaria had old god themes running through out the entire expansion. Do you not remember what the Sha were? The time traveling of WoD was actually hinted at through the Timeless isle and the bronze dragon we helped investigate and not through Siege of Ogrimmar.

[Varx]

Why would Murozond even bother summoning Yrel. There has to be a reason to why other then expansion setup.

Of course.

I have a prediction for that too.

After the titan watcher activated the beacon in Tyrhold, all the dragons suddenly arrived in the isles.

Now we know sinestra is alive in the great dark beyond, confirmed in the shaman order hall. Well she's also a dragon and the beacon being lit in Tyrhold probably resonated with her too.

I think sinestra is gonna travel to the isles as the herald to the void lords. The twilight flight is already confirmed to make an appearance too.

She might be the final boss of tier 2 and however it ends might cause Nozzy to snap and create the infinite dragon flight to protect azeroth from the void.

So we defeat him and the last attempt to protect azeroth is to summon a light zealot army from an alternate time line.


Boom, que Yrel.

She comes to us and acts as a catalyst to w/e is happening between Turalyon, Calia, and the scarlet crusade.

They capture locus walker and use him to travel into the last known place a void lord manifested in the physical universe, k'aresh. And there's 11.0.

Perhaps the time travel brings AU arrakoa for alliance and AU ogres for horde.

[rhorle]

I always thought the motive of the Infinite Dragonflight was fairly straightforward—they want to rewrite history in a "better" way.

But in the end that "better way" was attached to helping the hour of twilight come to pass. Whether it is through the lies of the Old Gods or subservience is of little consequence to what has become of them. Blizzard also attached the same motives of the Jailer to the Infinite as well. Trying to change things to save Azeroth from some big cosmic threat beyond the Old Gods.

You crawl unwitting, like a blind, writhing worm, towards endless madness and despair. I have witnessed the true End Time. This? This is a blessing you simply cannot comprehend.

[Ersula]

An end boss for an expansion will still make that expansion focused on a cosmic threat because that end boss and the danger they represent has to be connected to the story of the expansion. Mists of Pandaria had old god themes running through out the entire expansion. Do you not remember what the Sha were? The time traveling of WoD was actually hinted at through the Timeless isle and the bronze dragon we helped investigate and not through Siege of Ogrimmar.

Are the old gods cosmic? They didn't come from space, they always lived here.

Considering the Jailer the only thing Expansion end bosses have in common is...they've villains. The Jailer was invented *that* expansion. So any expansion can have a completely new villain that has nothing to do with Old gods or Fel.

[Le Conceptuel]

But in the end that "better way" was attached to helping the hour of twilight come to pass. Whether it is through the lies of the Old Gods or subservience is of little consequence to what has become of them. Blizzard also attached the same motives of the Jailer to the Infinite as well. Trying to change things to save Azeroth from some big cosmic threat beyond the Old Gods.

Even given that case, why does it strictly have to involve the Old Gods? It could very well be the case that Murozond, after the past was altered, would make an effort to change history in his own way to ensure an apocalyptic event regardless. There is no information as to what precisely about the altered timeline would prevent the "True End Time". It could well be that the reason is wholly divorced from the Old Gods and any kind of apocalyptic event would prevent it. In addition, I also don't see why you consider it necessary for a down-to-earth expansion to be wholly devoid of any higher-concept plotlines or involvement. Insofar as expansions go, there has never been an expansion without some kind of higher-concept plotline if we are to assume that the Old Gods really count as cosmic entities now. We had the Legion in TBC, Yogg-Saron in WotLK, the Old Gods as a whole in Cataclysm, Y'Shaarj in MoP, everything in WoD and Legion, the Old Gods and the Jailer in BfA and then everything in Shadowlands. There has never been an expansion without some of these elements. The environment is what matters to prevent that kind of exhaustion, not every element involved.

[Ximothy]

Are the old gods cosmic? They didn't come from space, they always lived here.

Old Gods are not native to Azeroth, they were created in the Void and just sorta flung across the cosmos until they colided with a planet in hopes of getting a planet with a Titan Soul. We know of at least two other planets that also had Old Gods too.

There's probably something that attracts Old Gods to specific planets, but they were created off world.

[rhorle]

Are the old gods cosmic? They didn't come from space, they always lived here.

The old gods are not native to Azeroth. They were flung out into the great beyond and crashed onto Azeroth. The Elementals tried to defeat them but in the end became slaves/servants of the Old Gods. Of course an expansion can have a new villain that has nothing to do with the Old Gods or Fel. Did I say that was impossible? Murozond however is not a new villain, right?

[Cosmic Janitor]

Are the old gods cosmic? They didn't come from space, they always lived here.

You really shouldn't even try to participate in lore discussions at this point.

Not knowing which planets contained titan world-souls, the void lords then hurled their creations out through the Great Dark Beyond, hoping that some would smash into a nascent titan. The Old Gods began contaminating mortal worlds and everything else they touched in their blind search for a world-soul.

[rhorle]

Even given that case, why does it strictly have to involve the Old Gods? It could very well be the case that Murozond, after the past was altered, would make an effort to change history in his own way to ensure an apocalyptic event regardless.

Because the events of End Time, in Cataclysm, happen in the future for Murozond. Of course he could do whatever to change the world into his image but past lore still associates him with the Old Gods. Things don't exist in a vacuum.

[Le Conceptuel]

Because the events of End Time, in Cataclysm, happen in the future for Murozond. Of course he could do whatever to change the world into his image but past lore still associates him with the Old Gods. Things don't exist in a vacuum.

Humans may have their own identity now, but past lore associates them with the Curse of Flesh and the Titans. Consequently, they are cosmic entities and must not appear in the next expansion.

[rhorle]

Humans may have their own identity now, but past lore associates them with the Curse of Flesh and the Titans. Consequently, they are cosmic entities and must not appear in the next expansion.

Right. The Titans created the Vrykul. Not something I've denied. Do you have a point you'd like to make? The Titans also empowered the Aspects which makes Dragonflight cosmic related as well. It is why the whole avoiding cosmic stuff is silly if you actually pay attention to the lore of WoW.

[Le Conceptuel]

Right. The Titans created the Vrykul. Not something I've denied. Do you have a point you'd like to make? The Titans also empowered the Aspects which makes Dragonflight cosmic related as well. It is why the whole avoiding cosmic stuff is silly if you actually pay attention to the lore of WoW.

Yes. That's precisely what I'm saying. Not wanting to see something in an expansion simply because it has association with a high-concept plot is an unrealistic expectation and doesn't strictly preclude their plot being compatible with the theme of the expansion.

[rhorle]

Yes. That's precisely what I'm saying. Not wanting to see something in an expansion simply because it has association with a high-concept plot is an unrealistic expectation and doesn't strictly preclude their plot being compatible with the theme of the expansion.

And yet people are expecting Murozond to be a high concept plot. So your point isn't even applicable to the situation, right? High Concept is just the latest buzz word being used by people. Most of the lore of WoW has been high concept because it directly deals with those cosmic forces and trying to stop them from corrupting a cosmic force.