10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[NineSpine]

Again you are creating a strawman. You created the silly examples just so you could get yourself some kind of win. It is not reasonable to put gear only in pet battles or to have it reward gear. Because gear isn't required to get pets (outside of the few raid captures and drops). It is reasonable to expect people to do content if they want the rewards from that content. If you want a pet battle reward you should have to do pet battles instead of doing raids.

A hypothetical is not a strawman.

Whether gear is required for content is up to blizzard. Blizzard could tune mythic to not require gear and move the gear to pet battles and make it matter there? Would that make sense? Would you like that? No, because you know that it is weirdto lock gear progression behind niche content.

Right? You keep ignoring how gear progression is possible currently with multiple paths. If you want the highest possible gear though you are required to do the content that offers it. Which is reasonable. A player can choose where progression ends based on the content they want to do. There is nothing wrong or unreasonable about that.

I don't care what's "reasonable". I care what is fun. How does it make the game more fun to lock gear progression behind unpopular content that most players don't want to do?

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I'm not insisting others shouldn't, I'm merely asking what purpose is their to have BiS gear to run WQs, LFR and Heroic dungeons. You want better gear ? Fine that's cool, you live for the ilvl, cool ! You'll be able to solo all the heroic dungeons you want if you want to. But you're gonna have to work for it in raids and M+. BTW Arena is queueable and awards decent gear too, is that casual content ?

Only rated pvp gives the good rewards, which does not have a queue for finding a team.

The purpose is that its fun to get upgrades.

[prwraith]

I to would love the return of challenge modes. I dislike the timed nature of M+.

[callipygoustp]

If you actually think it would be reasonable to take gear progression out of raids and put it in pet battles instead, I think I've made you say something so profoundly silly that it's pretty much over here.

How the hell did get that from what he said?

[NineSpine]

How the hell did get that from what he said?

Because I specifically provided that example and he said "Yes. It is reasonable to tell a person to play content if they want rewards from that content."

[Glorious Leader]

Would you like that? No, because you know that it is weirdto lock gear progression behind niche content.
.

Of course they wouldn't but the alternative of providing a comparable reward structure is also evidently unappealing. What they really want is to basically have the rest of the entire player base subsidize their game play on every level.

[Jester Joe]

Because I specifically provided that example and he said "Yes. It is reasonable to tell a person to play content if they want rewards from that content."

Rewards from pet battles would end up being more pets and pet related content though. And if people want that, then yeah they should play pet battles.

[rhorle]

I don't care what's "reasonable". I care what is fun. How does it make the game more fun to lock gear progression behind unpopular content that most players don't want to do?

That "unpopular" content has been the main focus of the game for 17 years. Why play a game where you don't like the main focus of that game? This again goes back to the soccer example I used. Do you change soccer to be more like football? Or do you tell those players that want it to be like football to just go play football instead.

Gear progression is also not locked behind any content. You can progress your gear up to a certain point. After that point you are required to do content to progress further. You have always been able to progress your gear up to the point that you choose. If you choose to avoid part of the game then you also are choosing to not be able to get those rewards.

If you can't make peace with your own choices then no amount of game design will help.

[NineSpine]

Rewards from pet battles would end up being more pets and pet related content though. And if people want that, then yeah they should play pet battles.

No, lets put gear behind pet battles and take gear out of raids.

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That "unpopular" content has been the main focus of the game for 17 years. Why play a game where you don't like the main focus of that game? This again goes back to the soccer example I used. Do you change soccer to be more like football? Or do you tell those players that want it to be like football to just go play football instead.

Because that is bullshit. You could get months of progression out of random dungeons and random BGs in WoTLK, not to mention how substantive rewards from professions and reps were back then. Now you outgear that shit in a few days at most.

Gear progression is also not locked behind any content. You can progress your gear up to a certain point. After that point you are required to do content to progress further. You have always been able to progress your gear up to the point that you choose. If you choose to avoid part of the game then you also are choosing to not be able to get those rewards.

If you can't make peace with your own choices then no amount of game design will help.

I asked you how it makes the game fun and your answer had nothing to do with the game being fun.

[Lolites]

The gear is just too big of an incentive for people to ignore.
How about we make 2 modes that gives same gear but the timed version also gives rankings, extra rewards and braggin rights?
Would that not satisfy you?

no, if they give the same rewards most people will take the easier route, not bcs they like it more, simply bcs its easier
if it gives far lower reward (which is logical as it would be far easier) i wouldnt mind untimed version but... thats already INGAME, you can do that by simply ignoring timer... and you dont even get that much worse rewards...

[Azharok]

No, lets put gear behind pet battles and take gear out of raids.

So you're playing soccer and wondering why it's not badmington, gotcha !

[Mardux]

I have been in higher keys, high enough to put me in top 100. Nothing really changes with timer except that if you make mistake you search for another key. What is worse, you can't even retry it like you could in CMs.




No, not like enrage timer, first of enrage timer does not start ticking until you pull boss, second you simply don't see it unless you play some weird composition. Enrage timer is not comparable.

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Hardmode in mechagon was AMAZING, one of the best experiences I had. Best part? Doing Hertz-Locker while it was still hard.

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure why blizzard made it so that you only get one key attempt per reset. You should definitely be able to run as many +25 SD's as you can find keys for.

Oh wait...

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No, lets put gear behind pet battles and take gear out of raids.

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Because that is bullshit. You could get months of progression out of random dungeons and random BGs in WoTLK, not to mention how substantive rewards from professions and reps were back then. Now you outgear that shit in a few days at most.



I asked you how it makes the game fun and your answer had nothing to do with the game being fun.

Nah, their answer has nothing to do with what you have chosen is fun for everyone despite their own opinions.

[NineSpine]

So you're playing soccer and wondering why it's not badmington, gotcha !

I'm wondering why the park that has soccer and badminton tells the people who want to play badminton that they need to play soccer if they want to have fun.

[rhorle]

Because that is bullshit. You could get months of progression out of random dungeons and random BGs in WoTLK, not to mention how substantive rewards from professions and reps were back then. Now you outgear that shit in a few days at most.

Months? Only if you had bad luck. You can do exactly what was offered in WotLK by running Heroics now. Your progression would quickly end just as it did then. Blizzard increased the item level of rewards in patch 3.2 and again in patch 3.3. It wasn't some grand progression system that you are trying to paint it as. There were still walls of progression for people that choose not to raid.

The same as now. There are even more options to gear up now as well. If you can't find something that is fun to you from those methods then it might be time to quit the game and find something that will be fun. The only real problem currently is LFR. Its rewards are subpar to what you can get in the open world so it has little relevance by the time it fully unlocks. What they should do is set the item level of its rewards to the same as Normal raids. The delay in it opening up ensures that you won't step on the toes of normal raiders. It can have the loot lockout shared between normal and LFR so you can't double up. Or allow it to double so normal mode players can get a boost so they can maybe take on Heroic faster.

[NineSpine]

Nah, their answer has nothing to do with what you have chosen is fun for everyone despite their own opinions.

Whose fun would I be taking away?

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Months? Only if you had bad luck. You can do exactly what was offered in WotLK by running Heroics now. Your progression would quickly end just as it did then. Blizzard increased the item level of rewards in patch 3.2 and again in patch 3.3. It wasn't some grand progression system that you are trying to paint it as. There were still walls of progression for people that choose not to raid.

I didn't say WoW ever did this perfectly. I said it did it a lot better, and it did.

The same as now. There are even more options to gear up now as well. If you can't find something that is fun to you from those methods then it might be time to quit the game and find something that will be fun. The only real problem currently is LFR. Its rewards are subpar to what you can get in the open world so it has little relevance by the time it fully unlocks. What they should do is set the item level of its rewards to the same as Normal raids. The delay in it opening up ensures that you won't step on the toes of normal raiders. It can have the loot lockout shared between normal and LFR so you can't double up. Or allow it to double so normal mode players can get a boost so they can maybe take on Heroic faster.

I asked you how it makes the game more fun and once again you aren't explaining how it makes it more fun.

[Azharok]

I'm wondering why the park that has soccer and badminton tells the people who want to play badminton that they need to play soccer if they want to have fun.

No it was always a soccer field. They may have added badmington, but the main purpose was still soccer if you wanna go with my example.

[rhorle]

I didn't say WoW ever did this perfectly. I said it did it a lot better, and it did.

It didn't though. In the past you hit the same walls as you do now. The same problem then is the same problem you say exists now.

I asked you how it makes the game more fun and once again you aren't explaining how it makes it more fun.

Your question is flawed. Gear is only locked if you choose to not participate in the main content of the game. Raiding and more recently M+. If getting the highest possible item level is what you find to be fun then you wouldn't be choosing to not participate in the content that allows that.

[NineSpine]

No it was always a soccer field. They may have added badmington, but the main purpose was still soccer if you wanna go with my example.

The field clearly has both games, because wow clearly has casual and hardcore content and always has had both.

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It didn't though. In the past you hit the same walls as you do now. The same problem then is the same problem you say exists now.

You hit the wall now in a day or two. You hit the wall then in a few months.

Your question is flawed. Gear is only locked if you choose to not participate in the main content of the game. Raiding and more recently M+. If getting the highest possible item level is what you find to be fun then you wouldn't be choosing to not participate in the content that allows that.

If you think the question of "What is more fun?" about a video game is "flawed", it demonstrates the problem with your reasoning better than anything I could ever say.

How does it makes the game more fun for someone to lock power progression behind content they don't find fun?

[rhorle]

You hit the wall now in a day or two. You hit the wall then in a few months.

You can't max out 6/6 cyphers in a day or two. Your claim however perfectly illustrates how you have more options to progress your gear as a casual player then you did in the past. That is why it can be quicker now because of all the different sources you have available to you. So in reality you are asking for casual gearing to be slowed down but instead just want higher item levels. Which you would still get relatively fast and be again out of content and not able to have fun.

If you think the question of "What is more fun?" about a video game is "flawed", it demonstrates the problem with your reasoning better than anything I could ever say. How does it makes the game more fun for someone to lock power progression behind content they don't find fun?

I don't find being showered in upgrades to be fun. I'm not sure why you don't understand that "What is fun" is a subjective concept. The problem isn't that you are asking what is fun but how loaded of a question you are making it. Gear progression is not locked behind content a person doesn't find fun. They can progress their gear with in the content they do find fun. If they want to progress it further then will have to broaden what content they do find fun.

What do you, or others, need to have everything in the game in order to have fun? Something you said this wasn't about earlier in the discussion. So it is strange how it always seems to revolve back to wanting the gear without having to do the content for that gear.

[NineSpine]

You can't max out 6/6 cyphers in a day or two. Your claim however perfectly illustrates how you have more options to progress your gear as a casual player then you did in the past. That is why it can be quicker now because of all the different sources you have available to you. So in reality you are asking for casual gearing to be slowed down but instead just want higher item levels. Which you would still get relatively fast and be again out of content and not able to have fun.

I agree that ZM is a step in the right direction, but it also requires that a casual player reject all other content except ZM which sucks.

I don't find being showered in upgrades to be fun. I'm not sure why you don't understand that "What is fun" is a subjective concept. The problem isn't that you are asking what is fun but how loaded of a question you are making it. Gear progression is not locked behind content a person doesn't find fun. They can progress their gear with in the content they do find fun. If they want to progress it further then will have to broaden what content they do find fun.

What do you, or others, need to have everything in the game in order to have fun? Something you said this wasn't about earlier in the discussion. So it is strange how it always seems to revolve back to wanting the gear without having to do the content for that gear.

Once again, you aren't explaining how it is fun. You are demanding they "broaden" what they find fun. Again, I want to make the game more fun and you clearly do not because you can't even defend your ideas with a description of it makes the game more fun. Isn't it embarrassing that your opinions on game design are so bad and detached from reality that the concept "fun" is this baffling to you?

[rhorle]

I agree that ZM is a step in the right direction, but it also requires that a casual player reject all other content except ZM which sucks.

Why does that suck? You've already stated that a casual player doesn't want to do any other content because Mythic Dungeons and Raids are off the table as they do not have a queue. When you artificially limit what content you find fun then of course you will have few options. That is never something game design can account for because it is a problem the player has created for themselves. Which means the game might not be the best game for a player to have fun with. It is okay for something to not have the same amount of enjoyment for every person alive.

It is okay for people to not like a game and to stop playing that game. Trying to make it 100% fun for everyone can often back fire. Just look at how offering more ways for casual players to gear up has been called "to quick" by you. Or that it forces a player to reject all other concept. Isn't it strange that attempts to do exactly what you want are also labeled as bad by you?