Can we agree that crafted legendaries failed?

[Zardi]

My only problem with Legendaries is the way ranks were implemented, as it leaves late crafters completely out of the system. Nowadays, it is ridiculously costly to level any recipe to Rank 4 (because nothing sells, at all) while those who went all-out in the beginning could make a huge profit and continue to do so.

To be honest, I think upgrading legendaries shouldn't have required to re-craft the base item at a higher level (just a huge chunk of the associated currency); while higher ilvl base items could serve as a way to "skip" the Torghast grind. That is, a bonus both for the crafter and the user, rather than a requirement.

[Raelbo]

P2w has come to wow, yet here you are full of hot air lol.

Buy token, convert to gold, buy player power. This isn't rocket science

I agree - it's not rocket science. So why you struggle so much with understanding it is a mystery. lol.

Yeah, yeah, buying power for money is, of course, part of p2w. But if that's all you're going with when trying to define p2w (especially if your parameters regarding how much power you can buy are entirely vague) then that's just a shitty, lazy and ignorant definition.

P2W means you pretty much need to spend cash to be competitive in the game. And if you aren't spending cash, you're pretty much always going to be a second class player. In WoW that is the exact opposite to how things are. People who buy gold with tokens are generally the least effective players in the game.

The reason for this, of course, is the token mechanism. You aren't buying power directly from the game, you're paying someone else to give you some of what they earned in the game. By logic this means you can't ever supersede those you're buying tokens from. At most it helps you catch up a little to where they already are.

But we all know the real reason people like you like to call tokens p2w - because you're simply too lazy and/or inept to come up with an actual argument of your own for why you think tokens are a problem.

[Aydinx2]

I can only lol at this. You do you bub if that's the hill you wanna die on.

P2W means can I give the game irl money (to the game itself not some random Chinese seller) to obtain more player power. If the answer is yes it's P2W

simple, or so I thought but here we are haha

P2W means that those who spend real-life money are automatically ahead of those who don't. That's why it's considered a bad thing by the gaming community. It makes them win from other players in the aspects of the game that players consider "winnable" (in this case PvP or raid progression) without putting in their own effort.

This is not the case in WoW. Even if you buy a Mythic raid boost, there are others who didn't who are already ahead. Actually, the very fact that you need to buy the boost and have someone else do the work for you automatically means that by buying it, you're behind. Nobody cares if you buy a boosted run to heroic Jailer because that in itself proves that it is completely doable for non top % raiders.

The same is true for PvP. Sure you can buy the best PvP gear to make up for not playing, but you're not going to be ahead of anyone or beat them. You still need to play well or get boosted by others who are not P2W.

Buying a boost to max level is the same. Sure you save time, but you don't actually win anything unless you were in a race to max level that somehow allowed buying the boost. The same is true for Tokens. All you're doing is saving time. Legendary effects don't even scale with item level, just the raw stats. So you can buy the lowest ilvl and get the same effect from the power. It really is nowhere near P2W.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm assuming you just skipped all the quest-text and didn't read a thing when you did the Q-line to free the Runecarver/Primus.

He's the dude who crafted Frostmourne.
He's the dude who crafted the Helm of Domination.
He's the dude who crafted the Plate of the Damned.

Do you know who used that gear? Full set worn by Arthas, full set minus Frostmourne was Bolvar.

He's the best crafter in the whole WOW universe basicly.

You can think up all the lore reasons you want for gear being "legendary", but everyone having them still invalidates the gameplay aspect of having them be legendary/orange quality. Honestly the same is true for epics. At least the previous few legendaries had a legendary quest line associated with them that made you create the item over the course of the patch/expansion. At least the gameplay reflected the nature of the item.

Grinding Torghast 3 times and then buying mats on the AH is not legendary.

And no, I don't care that "in lore there is only one Maw Walker with legendaries". Gameplay > Lore, and that's coming from someone who can give a class on the WoW lore (pre chronicle rewrite) from start to finish.

[glowpipe]

I'm assuming you just skipped all the quest-text and didn't read a thing when you did the Q-line to free the Runecarver/Primus.

He's the dude who crafted Frostmourne.
He's the dude who crafted the Helm of Domination.
He's the dude who crafted the Plate of the Damned.

Do you know who used that gear? Full set worn by Arthas, full set minus Frostmourne was Bolvar.

He's the best crafter in the whole WOW universe basicly.

The items are still worn by every single max level player. The items were litteraly added to the game to fill a void blizzard created. Lore matters little in this case and wasn't my point either

[GreenJesus]

I actually like sephuz and used it a lot.

Still liked EVERY single leggo system more than the bullshit Buy your own Leggo we have now.

Legendaries should be legendary... 1 or 2 per expansion max. Cape from Mop should never have been a legendary at all.

You liked sephuz after it got multiple effects added to it and numbers tuned up. At release it was complete garbage as a holy paladin (my second legendaey after movement speed boots).

[Raelbo]

I can only lol at this. You do you bub if that's the hill you wanna die on.

It's the stand I'll make, but I am not dying any time soon. At least not on the basis of the extremely weak arguments you're presenting...

P2W means can I give the game irl money (to the game itself not some random Chinese seller) to obtain more player power. If the answer is yes it's P2W

Even going by that definition (which is already completely inadequate), tokens still effectively end up in a transaction with another player - "the game" itself gives you nothing. It simply facilitates the transaction between players.

[Kokolums]

Just because the goals of the system didn't align with what you wanted doesn't mean it failed.
Next time, take steps to get ahead of this. As some one who might frequent places like MMO-C that post news about these systems months in advance, you stood to actually make an enormous amount of money early on.

For me, even this late in the expansion, making money is very easy.
The mission table does half the work, and the rest I do while playing.
I have double gathering on my main, so while I'm waiting for groups to form I just fly around and gather and make a few thousand a day just by doing that.
Then on top of the table, you are EASILY making far more money than you could spend, even if you are buying many legendaries.

Obviously what Blizzard wanted was to make professions matter to more people, and in that they succeeded. But this was not the best way to handle it, and what I do find a failure was how the rank system worked. Very poor implementation, and that is ultimately what causes crafters to lose money in the net.

If you are gathering the materials yourself though, you can make a ton.
I made an easy few million in the opening weeks of Shadowlands on an alt and had the patterns set up for the rest of the expansion.

Only problem was I was required to do all the story and rep stuff on that alt too to be able to continue crafting through out the patches. That wasn't great, but that's all part of professions.

For Dragonflight, try to get ahead of this topic, so instead of complaining, you are benefiting from the knowledge others might not have.

yah but what am i going to do with all those millions anyway?

[Kaykay]

It failed, because the whole crafting system was made to revolve around legendaries, with no other craftables having any value. Add to that, the insane grindy requirements to unlock the crafting recipes (having to craft a bunch of previous tier items to access the next level, causing a bunch of inflation both on cost of materials, and driving down prices of non-bis legendaries)

Legendaries can definetly be part of the crafting process, but there needs to be more there, than just massive material sinks.

When you have to craft 100 non-bis legendaries that wont sell at material cost, to access the bis pattern, you have to make back alot of money selling the bis ones, hence crafters will increase the price of the bis ones to make it worthwhile.

We're all paying a premium because crafters already sunk a ton of materials into items that wont sell.

[Mardux]

i change any day a real legion legendary to the crap things in SL

Yeah, who didn't like playing the lottery for 18 months hoping for the correct legiondary to drop from some random shit. That was amazing compared to getting legendaries from dedicated sources with only a select few gated behind anything other than effort.

[KrayZ33]

Your money goes to blizzard, not other players lol. Please tell me you knew that

A player has to buy your token. If there is no one buying, you gave blizzard money but you didn't get anything.
Doesn't happen in reality because there are always buyers, but that's the system. There HAVE BEEN times where people sat on their tokens for a while though. Not sure if this happens sometimes even today.

You are getting gold from another player and gave Blizzard 5$ as a bonus.
Basically, you are just agreeing to buy someone else's subscription at extra cost for his gold.

Blizzard doesn't create that gold and doesn't add it to the system.

So... someone has to earn it first, meaning someone is "ahead" of you before you can make use of the system.

[Amariw]

to OP: I agree the high gold cost, in the many patches we had to put up with it, was retarded. The controllable aquisition part was good though. We should have more of the latter and zero of the former.

[KrayZ33]

All that just to say you are paying Blizzard $20 to receive gold. It largely matters not where or how the gold comes.

Can I pay blizz irl money for gold, thus player power? Why yes, yes I can! Therefore P2W criteria has been met.

You guys try so hard to move the bar so far over that almost nothing could be considered P2W using your conflated definitions. Mine is neat and clean and black and white and I will continue to stand by it.

Can I use irl money to pay a game and obtain player power in said game?

I mean.... I can't. Because I'm not paying Blizzard per se. I'm paying the player.
As I mentioned. If no one is buying the token, no one is getting any gold.

So no, you can't pay Blizzard for gold, because if the gold doesn't exist or no one thinks it's worth it, Blizzard won't create it for you.
They are not generating a ressource, or item.
You might as well argue it's pay to win because you need a subscription to get items. At least by your logic.

I wouldn't even say it's not "Pay2Win" (because my opinion is that Blizzard enabled RMT with other players and that leads to people spending money for stuff in accordance to the game rules), I'm just arguing your line here is flawed and not as simple as you actually make it out to be.

To put it simply. If the token would cost 10m Gold. No one would buy it. And no one would trade it. Your definition of P2W would still apply, but it would de-facto not be in the game because no one uses it.
You would have given Blizzard 100$ for 5 tokens, but recieve nothing, because Blizzard doesn't give you anything other than overpriced subscription time you can trade.

[Dalinos]

P2W means that those who spend real-life money are automatically ahead of those who don't. That's why it's considered a bad thing by the gaming community. It makes them win from other players in the aspects of the game that players consider "winnable" (in this case PvP or raid progression) without putting in their own effort.

This is not the case in WoW. Even if you buy a Mythic raid boost, there are others who didn't who are already ahead. Actually, the very fact that you need to buy the boost and have someone else do the work for you automatically means that by buying it, you're behind. Nobody cares if you buy a boosted run to heroic Jailer because that in itself proves that it is completely doable for non top % raiders.

The same is true for PvP. Sure you can buy the best PvP gear to make up for not playing, but you're not going to be ahead of anyone or beat them. You still need to play well or get boosted by others who are not P2W.

Buying a boost to max level is the same. Sure you save time, but you don't actually win anything unless you were in a race to max level that somehow allowed buying the boost. The same is true for Tokens. All you're doing is saving time. Legendary effects don't even scale with item level, just the raw stats. So you can buy the lowest ilvl and get the same effect from the power. It really is nowhere near P2W.

- - - Updated - - -



You can think up all the lore reasons you want for gear being "legendary", but everyone having them still invalidates the gameplay aspect of having them be legendary/orange quality. Honestly the same is true for epics. At least the previous few legendaries had a legendary quest line associated with them that made you create the item over the course of the patch/expansion. At least the gameplay reflected the nature of the item.

Grinding Torghast 3 times and then buying mats on the AH is not legendary.

And no, I don't care that "in lore there is only one Maw Walker with legendaries". Gameplay > Lore, and that's coming from someone who can give a class on the WoW lore (pre chronicle rewrite) from start to finish.

So what do you prefer? We go back to the old system of crafting Thunderfuries and Atieshes and Val'anyrs for others?

I play Feral druid. Bar Atiesh (I did progress Naxx in original vanilla WoW, up to 4 horsemen, and I was resto at the time) there have been NO legendaries for my class-spec. None. Absolutely none. I've been a full time raider for 17 years, since I was 13 years old in 2004. Yet, even though my loyalty and consistency as a player DID put me in the pool of players that the whole guild agreed deserved a legendary, guess what. Bears/Cats never got one. We got TF, Hand of Rag, Atiesh in vanilla, Warglaives and Thoridal in Burning Crusade, Valanyr and Shadowmourne in Wrath. In Cataclysm, we FINALLY got a legendary that casters could use after all those fucking melee weapons...and guess what. It's for Moonkins. Not bears. You don't really ask your guild's main tank, who has been tanking for your guild for 3 years straight to reroll moonkin now, do you? Oh we also got Fangs of the Father, rogue only daggers in the final patch cause noone was playing Rogue (look it up, that's why they were added).

For me the best system was MOP. An epic questline that spanned the whole expansion. With multiple parts too. First we had the Sha-Touched Gem that gave insane stats and we put it in the weapons from Heart of Fear/Terrace of the Endless Spring weapons. Then we got the insane meta-gem that we put in Throne of Thunder helmets. Lastly, we finally got our cloaks for the final patch. It was glorious. I loved the fact I actually, finally, got my first legendary, after being a consistent raider, a loyal guildie and one of the many that was simply watching/helping others craft THEIR legendaries, FOR FOUR EXPANSIONS IN A FUCKING ROW. I healed my way through Molten Core up until Naxxramas and tanked my way from Karazhan up until today. I deserved a legendary just as much as all those others guildies/fellow raiders who got theirs when they were current - there was just never a legendary for bears.

- - - Updated - - -

The items are still worn by every single max level player. The items were litteraly added to the game to fill a void blizzard created. Lore matters little in this case and wasn't my point either

Read my statement above.

[Celement]

So what do you prefer? We go back to the old system of crafting Thunderfuries and Atieshes and Val'anyrs for others?

I play Feral druid. Bar Atiesh (I did progress Naxx in original vanilla WoW, up to 4 horsemen, and I was resto at the time) there have been NO legendaries for my class-spec. None. Absolutely none. I've been a full time raider for 17 years, since I was 13 years old in 2004. Yet, even though my loyalty and consistency as a player DID put me in the pool of players that the whole guild agreed deserved a legendary, guess what. Bears/Cats never got one. We got TF, Hand of Rag, Atiesh in vanilla, Warglaives and Thoridal in Burning Crusade, Valanyr and Shadowmourne in Wrath. In Cataclysm, we FINALLY got a legendary that casters could use after all those fucking melee weapons...and guess what. It's for Moonkins. Not bears. You don't really ask your guild's main tank, who has been tanking for your guild for 3 years straight to reroll moonkin now, do you? Oh we also got Fangs of the Father, rogue only daggers in the final patch cause noone was playing Rogue (look it up, that's why they were added).

For me the best system was MOP. An epic questline that spanned the whole expansion. With multiple parts too. First we had the Sha-Touched Gem that gave insane stats and we put it in the weapons from Heart of Fear/Terrace of the Endless Spring weapons. Then we got the insane meta-gem that we put in Throne of Thunder helmets. Lastly, we finally got our cloaks for the final patch. It was glorious. I loved the fact I actually, finally, got my first legendary, after being a consistent raider, a loyal guildie and one of the many that was simply watching/helping others craft THEIR legendaries, FOR FOUR EXPANSIONS IN A FUCKING ROW. I healed my way through Molten Core up until Naxxramas and tanked my way from Karazhan up until today. I deserved a legendary just as much as all those others guildies/fellow raiders who got theirs when they were current - there was just never a legendary for bears.

- - - Updated - - -



Read my statement above.

I rather the classes just be balanced. I think legendaries were never a net positive for the game.

If you want to balance an expansion around a weapon go the artifact route were cosmetics are unlocked rather then power.

[KrayZ33]

Well, no. That's just flat out wrong. Blizzard gets your $20 in full. Everytime .

Yes? But technically from the player you bought gold from.
What's so difficult to understand that Blizzard doesn't create currency or items?
They provide a transaction service between 2 players.

Just like they provide you with game time when you pay your subscription.
Someone still has to make (and play for) the gold? Which you then use to buy items from other PLAYERS.

Like... I give you 200k gold if you pay my WoW sub - we do it without the token and the auction house, just /w me.
What's P2W about it?
Or rather, how is Blizzard supposed to stop that and how doesn't that turn every single subscription game into P2W if that's your line.

[KrayZ33]

blah

I just don't agree with you.
It has nothing to do with me not giving a shit or whatever trip you are on about.

I can choose to use the service Blizzard provides or I can ignore it and give the money directly to the other player.
The fact remains that everything you buy in this game is provided by another player.
The token is a currency exchange token between 2 players.

The other player buys game time - or at most, Blizzard games.
He doesn't "earn" money, meaning absolutely everything is connected to the service and to the game and remains inside the game and isn't artificially created out of a vacuum.

"It is what it is man."
You buy player power from players, at all times.
Even if you use the services these players provide, which are raid boosts or M+ boosts. That also is not connected to Blizzard. Unless you are telling me they are paying Blizzard to get game time and thus they can provide you with items?

Blizzard isn't giving you shit.

You are paying an overpriced subscription for someone, in exchange for gold from that player.
Nothing more.
The money you spend is money they don't get from that other player who bought your token.
I can do that at all times, without the token as well.
Is WoW "F2P" because the other player is able to buy subscription time for gold? After all Blizzard didn't get any money, right?
That's just as asinine. It's connected to more than just your 1-2-3 description of the transaction. You are leaving out 50% of it just to make a point that isn't true. Why are you leaving out the second player even though he is responsible for 50% of the trade that occurs?

I can literally go to a player right next to me and ask him to give me 200k gold, and I'll transfer either 15€ Bnet balance to him or maybe even paypal him shit.
I can't go to blizzard, create a ticket, and ask them to create 200k gold for me, no matter how much money I offer them.
The buyer is a player. You only get gold through a player, not Blizzard.
If WoW is P2W then so was it before the token.
Either you accept that or you don't, but that's the truth.

At most, the token provided an official platform to do these "P2W" trades that were already possible before the release of said token.
The difference being that gold and money is now used for ingame stuff and no longer used to make a "living" for players with bots.
And the "little" (as in, a fuckton for basically nothing) Blizzard earns "extra" whenever someone wants to do this.
They only earn as long as people want to pay gold for subscription time though... and you only get gold for as long as well. Big difference.
The economy didn't change, same amount of gold is running through the servers as before. Same amount of items are created as before. No one got anything from using $$$ other than subscription time and a trade of ingame currency between 2 players.

[KrayZ33]

You do you then. I always notice the same BS when people try to claim wow isn't P2W and they always involve long ass convoluted paragraphs explaining that because birds migrate south during the winter wow can't be P2W or some crazy mental gymnastics.

I wonder why that is lol

I mean, I explained it in 1 short one, but you somehow are not able to understand it. So don't blame me for "mental gymnastics" when you can't comprehend it the simple way.

I wonder why people have to go and explain it in more detail to you

[Utrrabbit]

I realize it was an attempt to step away from the RNG legendaries that we had before, but the way it turned out to be was more a cash grab for blizzard.

Crafters profit is near 0 with all expensive secondary mats needed, while buyers have to be spending anywhere from 40-200k just to be relevant with their maxed leggo slots for one spec. If we start getting into off specs and alts, i think people are easily spending towards 1m gold.

How do average players make that much money? They don't, they buy tokens.

I'm already spending 15 euros a month to play, i dont really want to be spending another 20 euros to equip my must-have gear.

inb4, yeah have fun grinding out that gold with dailies. Nobody got time for that.

I mean I made almost 50mil gold in shadowlands selling base leggo items. I think it worked out. I know a lot of others who made a lot of gold.

[Schmilblick]

For me, yes, it's a failure. Right now, I want to resub but still can't decide which class to play and which legendary to craft, just because it's tied to crafting and I'm very limited on gold.

[arkanon]

snip

Lets say a game exists where no loot is bound to players. You load your credit card and bank account details onto your game account. Now, once in game, you just buy items directly from other players and they receive money in their account for said items. What you are saying, is this game is NOT P2W?