I think abandoning borrowed power is a huge mistake

[Goatfish]

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Most specs don't work without weak auras? I mean I don't use it for Warlock (demo), Mage (all 3), or Shaman (ele/resto), and the only reason I use it for monk is because of stacking buffs that actually matter for fistweaving. I pretty consistently purple or orange parse without WA. You can call it "unoptimal" but it seems to work out pretty well for me. Maybe all these specs I haven't sunk any time into require it to "work", but I highly doubt that.

Look dude, I get that you want Bliz to make things the way you like it, I just don't get why you're against my idea of Bliz setting up a system so that it's a game WE like. Luckily for me, that seems to be what they are going for with the talent tree revamp replacing borrowed power. That's kind of the whole point of me bringing up talent trees, because ideally you'll have the option to do you, and I'll have the option to do me, and hopefully things are balanced enough that both of us can do it without seriously gimping ourselves. If you are finding your spec and rotation too easy and everything is boring, then maybe it's just the content you are doing is boring, or maybe you're just getting bored with the game itself. If we look at BC, we had plenty of people who weren't bored with almost literal one button rotations, and BC classic is pretty popular still. I need more than that to keep me interested, and you apparently need more than me, but I don't feel we should mess with peoples rotations every tier just to satisfy your boredom.

You're complaining about how tier sets have always been, because the goal of them has almost never been to change how you play, but to reinforce correct play. Legos are generally supposed to specialize you further into a certain style of play or also to guide you into playing your class appropriately (I can't speak for the shit legendaries, I don't know why bliz wastes design time on obvious garbage no one will use).

[Glorious Leader]

I kinda agree. Kinda.

I really liked artifacts, I thought the HoA/Azerite was "meh" and the Covenant abilities were a mixed bag. So borrowed powers done right is great, borrowed powers done wrong is not. Though in the long run I'll probably miss something like it in DF, though I'll probably enjoy messing about with my dragon and maybe they'll introduce some BP later on.

That was the most fleshed out iteration because it came out with alternate advancement both vertically and horizontally. Different skins for the weapons for example. combined with the guild order hall it felt the most fleshed out. The necklace was... just a necklace felt like a step back

[ChairmanKaga]

What I definately don't want is for everything to be reset each expansion.

I think that ship sailed in Burning Crusade.

[Jinpachi]

The new talents system is not borrowed power because we will keep it for the next ~10 years or so before they have to prune them a bit. The big problem with borrowed power is that it's duh .... borrowed? You loose it after one Expansion which feels bad, so they try to not do that again. On a smaller scale, like with tier sets it's not a problem because you a) still keep the transmog and b) you don't invest huge time into maintaining and upgrading your tier set over the course of an expansion. That was another problem - all the "farming for your artifact/azerite/covenant" was basically made useless once the next pre-patch hit.

Also sorry, but I can't and won't be positive about borrowed power. It was cancer. It could have worked if they would have kept on introducing new artifact weapons, but than it wouldn't have been borrowed power, but an evergreen system.

Exactly. I stopped caring about borrowed power when it was clear it was temporary. Just another forced system

[Kithelle]

I don't "hate" borrowed power...but kinda need a break from it. Will see how they do with the new talent system

[Schmilblick]

So then back when we had tier sets previously was always a shitshow? I think we had something like 20+ tier sets?

IMHO yes, it was very bad, some people getting without their tier sets for the entirety of a patch is just awful, same as legendaries in Legion.

- - - Updated - - -

They said they will do something similiar, prolly through the new crafting system. No worries =)

I hope so, for them ^^

[Eosia]

Right now I'm having more fun in wow than I can remember. I can switch between multiple interesting creative and visually spectacular abilities in Oribos and try out new builds in every battleground or raid, and do crazy shit I've never done before.

Borrowed power works IF implemented right. And it has not yet across three expansions that have used it so far.

Legion was the best iteration by far since weapon drops can be the bane of ones existence in WoW and it was nice to not have to worry about if Boss X will drop Weapon Y or Offhand Z for you before the end of the tier and such. They still made one big mistake with that being AP was locked to a specific weapon versus a pool that the player just had. If you just had a pool of AP that boosted all 2-4 weapons simulatenously, as was suggested in Alpha and Beta,

Azerite fixed that problem, but then they locked it to the armor piece instead of the spec so you had to either get lucky with gear drops or pay constantly to swap back and forth.

Covenant abilities were worse because rather than it just being story/cosmetics, there was power behind it and since Blizzard still hasn't mastered being able to remotely balance things like this, there were covenants that you were stupid to join for certain classes/specs like Necrolords for BM Hunter. And without a frictionless way to move between them when patches change the meta, then we're doubly screwed.

[PenguinChan]

Instead of it being borrowed power it should've been alternative power. Introduce a powerful weapon / item that is usable at all times but give it drawbacks and certain purposes. Honestly I'm kind of bewildered why they didn't go that route. Do you enjoy the base kit? Keep that and keep it basic, but do well regardless. Do you like the customization of the Heart of Azeroth? Great, your damage and such will revolve around that customization. So on and so forth - these borrowed power systems are good ideas at heart but either mediocre in execution or great then taken away (Legion, for example).

But as I've said before, borrowed power isn't a good system in how they do it. Instead of it attaching onto your spec and enhancing it, they gut certain aspects and shove it back into the borrowed power system. And they made you get it over and over again, expansion after expansion. That alone makes their version of borrowed power just awful.

But regardless, the new talent system is (most likely) better than borrowed powers if we're going to compare apples to apples. It applies the old progression system, with MoP's talents and future developed options of borrowed power that people enjoyed. I personally do enjoy the CONCEPT of going after things that eventually end up as a staple to a certain playstyle. But Blizzard doesn't like maintaining things like that, which is evident.

The only way I could see them re-introducing old borrowed powers and systems of that nature, is to introduce a DPS cap for the current patch. Which I'm personally surprised they have not tried out yet? But I suppose players would get really upset if their numbers got pushed downward so you couldn't break an absurd DPS barrier. Or rather, reduced enough so that you're not so far ahead of other systems. I personally like that design more as it'd provide a nigh impossible barrier to hit but allow for upward progression in every system for PVE and not hamper anything in particular. IE: More gameplay variation and choice of fun, but no matter what you pick it won't be absurdly broken due to soft or hard caps on damage.

[Atrea]

One of the issues with "borrowed power" is that it really makes alternate characters feel weak.

Since your power is tied to some sort of resource - be it Artifact Power, Azerite Power, even Renown - it creates a huge power gap between one's main character and their alts.

Obviously a person's main character is always going to be stronger than their alts, but the difference used to be a lot smaller.

[Flarelaine]

Reforging is a bad system. First it was necessary because of hit/expertise system. Second, it only provided marginal gains on a bad piece of gear. (Remember only 40% of a bad stat could be converted leaving you still with 60% of the bad stat). Third, it was a very messy system requiring third party addons or website to "properly" handle reforging.

Really? I always used the native interface for reforging and it went without a hitch.

[Biomega]

Really? I always used the native interface for reforging and it went without a hitch.

It's not the interface that was a problem, it was knowing what to reforge into what.

The math is actually quite complicated, considering that at the time there were caps on certain stats (like hit rating) that had to be taken into consideration. It was not uncommon for one new item to throw off the entire setup, making you reforge massive amounts of gear with every upgrade if you wanted to be optimal.

What's worse, it made loot drops intransparent, too. Very often it wasn't even clear if a dropped piece was an upgrade for someone, or how much of an upgrade it was. Everything had to be mathed out for everyone involved, and no one could do that in their head.

The idea was cool - but the actual mechanics were a nightmare.

[shise]

Of course, there will always be some people who like different things, but in this case you are a clear minority.

I won´t argue your tastes but no, it is not a mistake, it is the right thing to do. WoW has changed too much and it shouldn´t.


It´s like buying a car, and 10 years later the manuacturer comes over and in a service he completely changes your car: a different engine, different wheels, changes the color and the on board computer functions. Goes from being a saloon to become a silly cross over SUV.

Sorry, that´s not the car I bought in the first place. Of course some changes and innovation are always super welcome, but not when it radically changes the product...
For that matter, provide us with another option instead, but let us keep the real thing. Yes, like classic now, but being current, relevant content instead of a copy of a past version

[stansted12]

For that matter, provide us with another option instead, but let us keep the real thing. )

Yes let's have our cake and eat it in some vague and non-specific way.

[Soikona]

XD this community is the best LOL. GTFO WITH BORROWED POWERS. They did take it away. OMG BRING BACK BORROWED POWERS. Seriously ?

Did you ever stop and think, that like the rest of humanity, the WoW community is not a hivemind?

[Swnem]

I think it's one of the best decisions they have made. No other MMO has that system and during it's tenure WoW lost more subscribers than ever, so i don't know how one can even say that.

[Deferionus]

Right now I'm having more fun in wow than I can remember. I can switch between multiple interesting creative and visually spectacular abilities in Oribos and try out new builds in every battleground or raid, and do crazy shit I've never done before.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't think it is borrowed power that is the problem. That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying you want less abilities, less choice, from wow? No. Do you want every ability from every expansion to remain in your arsenal?-no, that would leave you with a thousand different buttons to press.

I think what happened here is a small number of streamers, who have very annoying fans who tend to repeat everything they say verbatim, a) have been playing wow far too long and just end up whining about everything because they are commercially obligated to play wow forever and b) confuse the excessively grindy and repetitive mechanics involved in obtaining the borrowed power with the fun of the borrowed power itself. In 9.2 that grind no longer exists.

So I suspect what will happen is this: Blizzard will put much less work into offering the players diversity of options in Dragonflight, because that's essentially what we asked for and its cheap. Then the players will whine about it like they didn't cause the situation in the first place. That happens a lot.

Does no one else see these train wrecks coming?

(Cue lots of guys talking about wow in a retrospective, creepy way as if it were an ex-girlfriend that dumped their ass years ago.)

I can only assume that you are newer to WoW with this argument. WoW had more creative builds in the vanilla version of the game than it does in today's. Borrowed power is in no way tied to having creative builds. In WOTLK warlocks had 3 or 4 viable builds to PvE with. You had 3 or 4 builds to PvP with. Depending on my arena comp I could choose to play affliction several different ways. The systems they have today offer less choices, not more.

My opinion has nothing to do with the streamers. I admit I liked Legion because the concept was new and it was very well done. But I absolutely hated BFA's systems and Shadowlands. They ruined the expansions. The expansions would have been better without the borrowed power systems and I would have played the games more. The move they are making in Dragonflight is exactly what I wanted, and I would not have played Dragonflight if they did not get rid of borrowed power. I personally had a line drawn in the sand that I was not dealing with another expansion of time wasting borrowed power progression.

[Santti]

I think this hate against the "borrowed powers" is just stupid.

Plus, I don't think the talent trees, as they appear right now, even solves the "problem". It can't. It's safe to assume abilities are going to part of the talent trees, and not just passives, right? So how the hell is that going to work, without shit getting all kinds of bloated down the line? Modify the talent trees every now and then, so the abilities are further apart, not all easily grabbed after an expansion or two? We've not gone anywhere, just shuffled the furniture around. It's just as "borrowed powers" as it have always been.

Leave enough room, that the bloat is not going to be a problem for many expansions? You are going to run into the problem of your spec feeling incomplete. Like you need to unlock tires on your car, but can't, until the next expansion.

Solve it by not giving any talent points after each expansion, and not have any kind of growth on your powers, at all? What do you call that, "stagnant powers"?

Ya'll just silly geese.

[Alroxas]

Really? I always used the native interface for reforging and it went without a hitch.

No that's not what I meant, I mean how did you know exactly how to reforge an item that affected a stat like hit/expertise? Remember going over (even 0.1%) meant that you wasted a stat. Similar to going under as it contributed to your attacks/spells missing.

The only way that worked well was to either use an addon (which would spend cycles calculating all the reforging/gemming/enchanting necessary to get you to the optimal reforge) or use Ask Mr. Robot website (or another similar website).

[Flaim]

Imo the biggest issue with borrowed power isn’t that it goes away. It’s that you can’t take any breaks from the game or you’re instantly trash and you’re instantly way behind and the only way to get back is to mindlessly grind nonstop to get to the point to where you can actually enter the content you want to do.

while at the same time people who come in halfway through the patch are essentially boosted to like 90% of the current progress.
it's a lose-lose system, where you don't want to fall behind, but lacking the point of keeping uptodate with it either due to catchup kicking in eventually, invalidating all your effort so far.

I miss the days where once I got a toon to max level, all I had to do was gear it up and it would be set.

amen.

Simple answer is yes, fucking get rid of it.
I want my class to be my damage, not some random bullshit. And I want real borrowed power that has existed (Tier Sets) that alter how I play my class patch to patch. Same with leggos, which have only sucked because Blizz can't handle giving us a good method of acquisition.

Artifact weapons are the only other one anyone can name that were good because again, it altered how your class played. They've been dead for four years.

spot on my feeling eversince bfa

tier sets are where the borrowed power should stop and end. tier sets are a way to shake up a specs main play style, rotation, etc in a small but interesting manner. Does it suck when you have only 3/4 of the set? yeah. but with the 2 piece providing decent bonuses, it can be made smoother.

the biggest benefit of gear based borrowed power is that you naturally want to leave it behind you, because the new stuff simply becomes stronger, instead of external factors FORCING you to remove it/taking it away.
the effect is the same, but the feeling is a massive difference.

[Celement]

I think this hate against the "borrowed powers" is just stupid.

Plus, I don't think the talent trees, as they appear right now, even solves the "problem". It can't. It's safe to assume abilities are going to part of the talent trees, and not just passives, right? So how the hell is that going to work, without shit getting all kinds of bloated down the line? Modify the talent trees every now and then, so the abilities are further apart, not all easily grabbed after an expansion or two? We've not gone anywhere, just shuffled the furniture around. It's just as "borrowed powers" as it have always been.

Leave enough room, that the bloat is not going to be a problem for many expansions? You are going to run into the problem of your spec feeling incomplete. Like you need to unlock tires on your car, but can't, until the next expansion.

Solve it by not giving any talent points after each expansion, and not have any kind of growth on your powers, at all? What do you call that, "stagnant powers"?

Ya'll just silly geese.

It really comes down to anything that isn't gear has been given out in a utterly shit way.

Conduits this patch are really how all borrowed power should of worked from the orginal artifact power.

If you do hard enough content you simply instantly cap it and the process of grinding is kept for people who just want a slow trickle of power. It keeps people who vastly surpass trivial content from running it to excess.