The scene where Mannoroth got killed by Grom was written before all the power creep made its way into WoW lore. You can't really compare the two based on feats derived in changes in writing philosophy.
@darkoms
It's actually hilarious how little self-awareness you have. The only one who's opinionated here is you. The notion that someone becomes only a fraction of themselves in terms of strength, speed, endurance and reactions simply because they don't know where they are is nothing more than pure nonsense. Not to mention that you ignored the part where he was knocked out repeatedly even after obtaining the Axe of Cenarius because you have 0 arguments against that.
Like you said, old man. The difference is that one of the old men has magic. So no, Arthas didn't get defeated by just an "old man", unlike Blackhand, an Orc warrior like Grom, who did actually get defeated by a normal dude in his late 50's. That's the point them I'm making.
And yes, Tirion was obviously amped by the Light, lmfao. What are you even saying here? Have you never done the LK fight or what? Once Tirion breaks out of the ice, the Ashbringer is surrounded by a glow of Holy Light that isn't normally present lol. It's genuinely funny how you don't even know that much.
Nope, Illidan didn't play with Arthas whatsoever. That's literally not stated at any point anywhere in the story, more headcanon from you. Meanwhile, Rise of the Lich King explicitly tells you that Illidan was getting exhausted from their fight. Not to mention that it also says that Arthas had already been taxed by his previous bout with Kael before reaching Icecrown. More importantly, I have trouble understanding how you don't even know what the definition of the word "tank" is in this context. Why would you ever argue about these things when you're not even literate enough to do so in the first place? Arthas took multiple hits from Illidan's felfire, proceeded not to die and still had the strength to attack Illidan after that. That's the definition of tanking a hit. Get it right.
No, Mannoroth wasn't busy with the portal at all. There's a good reason why you're yet to provide a source for your claims lol.
I'm also not sure why you're bothering to post tooltips for Illidan's spells. We're not discussing WHY he is capable of keeping up with Mannoroth, we're discussing IF he is capable of keeping up with Mannoroth. If you agree that Nelf Illidan is faster than Mannoroth than you automatically agree that DK Arthas, let alone LK Arthas, is also faster than Manny, considering that DK Arthas was already evenly matched with Nelf Illidan. End of discussion.
And yes, you are completely debunked, my guy. There's a good reason why you're yet to say anything about my rebuttal, and instead just choosing to repeat your argument over and over as if it hasn't already been refuted.
What do you mean "What makes you think Arthas can run circles around Mannoroth"? Why do you think we have been discussing Nelf Illidan vs Mannoroth in terms of speed up until this point? Are you following the conversation at all? I know that Arthas can run circles around Mannoroth because he could already keep up with someone who could dodge upwards of 90% of Mannoroth's attacks before he becoming the Lich King. That's why.
1)Wrong. Out the two characters in question, this only fully applies to Mannoroth whose 5 Infernals take a while to reach the ground and whose portals only allow him to summon a couple of minions with each wave. Meanwhile, Arthas' spirits and val'kyrs appear instantly, his ghouls and abominations appear almost instantly after a second and a half cast and he can summons dozens of those at a time, unlike Mannoroth.
2)See above. More minions, faster to summon. Also, your argument falls apart once you factor in the numerous powerful units that the Scourge has at its' disposal.
3)I only raised the point about Arthas' army because it would serve as an excellent distraction. If Mannoroth has to waste his time to deal with them, than it's already working.
No, Arthas would still be weaker than Lei Shen. Just because he has an extremely potent form of soul stealing does not change the fact that Lei Shen still has higher raw stats than Arthas, both physically and magically. He still wouldn't be capable of engaging Lei Shen in any other way without losing resoundingly. That's like saying that I'm weaker than a poisonous flower because I can't deal with its' poison even though I could effortlessly crush it underfoot.
Mannoroth would get curb stomped by Xuen and Lei Shen because he is that much weaker than them. And so would Cenarius. Just because he is a Wild God does not mean that he is on Xuen's level. Neither Mannoroth nor Cenarius have anything on these hill-sized dudes.
As I said, what Thrall can do with the Doomhammer is not equivalent to what the Farseer can do with the Doomhammer, as Thrall specifically tells you himself. So yes, it was DEPOWERED, as a matter of fact. There rest of your point here is literal whataboutism
The remaining two paragraphs that you wrote are literally nothing more than crying and seething about "fanboys" without any actual arguments so I won't bother to respond to their contents.
It's described as Illidan not taking Arthas seriously in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, whereas Arthas was receiving all the power Ner'zhul could provide during the encounter. Illidan lost because of this arrogance, but it's still an achievement for Arthas. Regardless, Arthas pre-Lich King is nothing compared to Arthas as the Lich King, which is who the discussion is focused on.
Mannoroth was busy with the portal is in the Cataclysm dungeon Well of Eternity. In this dungeon, Mannoroth is being shown as the one maintaining the portal, and the win condition for the encounter is breaking his concentration and causing him to be pulled into the portal (banished back to the Twisting Nether). It should also be noted that sometime after the events of Warcraft 3, Azgoth, a Pit Lord, was able to defeat Illidan. Given Mannoroth was the strongest Pit Lord, it's not a huge logical leap to say that Mannoroth is probably stronger than Illidan.No, Mannoroth wasn't busy with the portal at all. There's a good reason why you're yet to provide a source for your claims lol.
So you're under the belief that Xuen, a Wild God who was special because he was one of four that Freya saw was dedicated to peace and wisdom, is greater than Cenarius, someone who is also a Wild God, who was the being who taught the mortal races Druidism, who has been explicitly called one of the strongest immortal beings on Azeroth, and whose mother is Elune (a celestial being of similar status to the Eternal Ones) and father is Malorne (one of the most powerful Wild Gods) for reasons unstated. Neat.Mannoroth would get curb stomped by Xuen and Lei Shen because he is that much weaker than them. And so would Cenarius. Just because he is a Wild God does not mean that he is on Xuen's level. Neither Mannoroth nor Cenarius have anything on these hill-sized dudes..
Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief
I feel like there is no point discussing this more. All points been made and who ever reads this thread can now decide to form a opinion on logic or join the fan boy rage of arthas fanboys throwing stuff around like : debunked, sageras is weaker then arthas, x other buzzword.
The one thing though arthas fanboys lack to provide….is proof for any of their claims so iam sure any objective reader will quickly realize which sidd has more points
Not it isn't dude. Not just "toying"/"playing", other words like "arrogance" and "not taking the fight seriously" are never used in Rise of the Lich King. That's just your interpretation, your headcanon. Even other sources like the Chronicles attribute Arthas' victory to his amp from Ner'Zhul that was given to him at the time. Illidan's Arrogance is never mentioned anywhere.
Mannoroth was busy with the portal, but only before he is engaged. The ritual that he is casting is immediately interrupted by Illidan who engages with him in 1v1 combat. Mannoroth's concentration needed to be broken because he was still connected to the Well of Eternity. Illidan only states that after Mannoroth opens another, separate, massive portal on the shore of the well that allows him to start summoning more demons.Mannoroth was busy with the portal is in the Cataclysm dungeon Well of Eternity. In this dungeon, Mannoroth is being shown as the one maintaining the portal, and the win condition for the encounter is breaking his concentration and causing him to be pulled into the portal (banished back to the Twisting Nether). It should also be noted that sometime after the events of Warcraft 3, Azgoth, a Pit Lord, was able to defeat Illidan. Given Mannoroth was the strongest Pit Lord, it's not a huge logical leap to say that Mannoroth is probably stronger than Illidan.
I don't "believe" anything. Xuen simply scales to a far stronger character. Namely, the Ra+Aman'Thul empowered, Artifact weapon carrying Lei Shen who scales to Elemental Lords by virtue of having Ra's power. Meanwhile, Cenarius is practically featless.So you're under the belief that Xuen, a Wild God who was special because he was one of four that Freya saw was dedicated to peace and wisdom, is greater than Cenarius, someone who is also a Wild God, who was the being who taught the mortal races Druidism, who has been explicitly called one of the strongest immortal beings on Azeroth, and whose mother is Elune (a celestial being of similar status to the Eternal Ones) and father is Malorne (one of the most powerful Wild Gods) for reasons unstated. Neat.
Why is this even a question
Illidan was at his prime when he battled Arthas, he had consumed the skull of gul'dan. Meanwhile Arthas was not at his prime because he hadn't merged with Ner'zhul yet and was actually in a weakened state because Ner'zhul was getting weakened by Illidan attacking Northrend and Frostmourne was weakening due to that aspect.
Which mean Arthas is vastly superior to Illidan in terms of power from every angle, if they had an all out battle where anything goes and it was like a WC3 match where you build a power base and go at it, Arthas is capable of resurrecting an unlimited army with undead dragons and the scourge. Illidan has Naga and his Illidari, Illidan loses 10/10 times.
Mannoroth suffers from being poorly written, he's supposed to be this Lieutenant of the Burning Legion. He answers only to Archimonde. In Wc3 cinematic Mannoroth was defeated because Thrall threw a hammer at his wing and then Grom hit him with an axe. It just suffered from being made in an era where technology wasn't as advanced as it is now. Grom is a basic orc, there's nothing special about him... he doesn't have any magic super powers he's literally just a skilled fighter and nothing more.... he should not of been able to go one on one with a being like Mannoroth and been able to strike a killing blow on him as easily as he did.
Blizzard has this weak point about them where they write these characters to be super powered until it's time for them to die and then they just get sneezed on and fall over or we use some super power weapon to defeat them.
But once again it depends on the scenario, are you asking who wins in a one on one anything goes use any powers you have? or one on one and they are limited? Because if it's anything goes then it's scourge vs infernals. If it's one on one then it's Arthas wielding the powers of the jailer vs Mannoroth who wields the fel, it's just not something you can actually answer
What exactly is the position? That he is the most powerful being after Sargeras? Because Blizzard officially said that Lei Shen is stronger than Arthas. That he's the most important character in the universe? I don’t remember them saying that, and the father of the lore Metzen called Malfurion his favorite character
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Ner'zhul gave Arthas almost all of his power before the battle with Illidan, the book literally says that Arthas became STRONGER than ever before.
Illidan defeated Arthas 1v1, I have no idea why you compare their armies. But if you want to talk about exploits, how about Illidan blowing up the fucking planet?
I don't know, Arthas is weaker than Lei Shen, I see no reason why he can't be weaker than Mannoroth
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Wow, you're tough, it's a pity that you still don't know lore. It's called disorientation and we have no idea how traveling through the portal affects anyone. I remind you that the portal tore Brox's friend apart. And after getting the axe, he was never knocked out. He was defeated by mages like Illidan, but he was never defeated by other warriors. You'd know this if you were actually reading books and not some YouTube idiots.
Yes, and Arthas also had magic. In addition to his super sword, he also had a super helmet and it was in the very center of his lands (second time). I don't understand the relationship between Grommash and Blackhand. Do you know the power difference between them or what? I mean, Grommash (after drinking blood a second time) defeated Cenarius 1v1.
Wow, so any time Arthas casts any spell he is under the influence of death? The paladin uses the power of the Light, there is nothing strange in this.
And the book also says that Arthas was stronger than ever before after Ner'zhul's buff and he still couldn't do a damn thing once Illidan uses his true power and just burns him with fel fire. Arthas survived those fires because Illidan stopped burning him because he wanted to finish him off with his blades. Arthas collapses and nearly passes out as Frostmourne whispers to him to find the strength to strike. Arthas literally needs the support from his sword to gather his strength and strike. If Illidan had simply continued to burn him or shot him with beams from his eyes, Arthas would have been unable to do anything. You would know this if you weren't jerking off to Arthas the moment you read this passage. I'm surprised how your blatant ignorance of the lore coexists with your arrogance.
Wow, you really don't know shit, do you?
This is what happens in the dungeon
Phase 2
He opens a portal to summon demons, this is ANOTHER portal, this does not contradict his connection with the Well itself.Mannoroth yells: Lord Sargeras, I will not fail you! Sweep your molten fist through this world so that it may be reborn in flames and darkness!
A massive demonic portal opens nearby!
Illidan Stormrage yells: He is still connected to the well somehow! Focus your attacks on Mannoroth, we must disrupt his concentration!
This is what Nozdormu says
I cannot simply fly up and grab the Dragon Soul. The old gods protect it.
To make matters worse, their shield is strengthened by the swirling, arcane energies that emanate from the Well of Eternity, and those energies are being focused by the great demon Mannoroth.
Distract Mannoroth, and the link between the Dragon Soul and the Well will be broken. Without the Well's power, the old gods' ward will be weakened, and the Dragon Soul will be vulnerable.
DK Arthas was on par with Illidan who toyed with him and Illidan dodged attacks from Mannoroth who was focused on maintaining the portal. Also, speed will not help Arthas in any way if Mannoroth just wants to burn him like Illidan did.
I don't see any rebuttals. All your fantasies I have already debunked, you are just pulling things out of your ass to make your idol look stronger.
As I said above, DK Arthas was on par with Illidan who was playing with him and Illidan was dodging Mannoroth's attacks who were focused on maintaining the portal.
1) Yes, he can do this when he is in the very center of his lands, just clogged with his soldiers. Amazing right?
2) The more powerful the unit, the more difficult it is to summon it. At the same time, the demons are stronger than the undead. What happens if they meet
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Doo...#Patch_changes
3) And Arthas will have to spend time summoning them. Mannoroth can simply burn them with all the fel fire, and summon the demons himself to distract Arthas. Or does it just work for your convenience?
Yes, just like Mannoroth! I'm glad that you started to include logic.
Do you have proof that he is much weaker than them? Or that Cenarius is much weaker than them?
1) When Blizzard was asked about the depiction of Lei Shen and Xuen fighting in the Chronicles and their size, Blizzard said it was a combination of real facts and artistic exaggeration. But of course you didn't know about it because it's not related to your idol. Luckily you have me
2) Size doesn't really mean that much. Cenarius is also one of the strongest wild gods. In the War of the Ancients, he was one of the last to fall, and only because he got too angry and ran too far.
No, a weaker state than a prime state does not equal DEPOWERED. Depowered means no power at all. Lol, I just pointed out to you that LITERALLY THE SAME thing can be said about Ashbringer and you just ignored it because you can't say anything, lol? This is so dumb and funny that I don't know what to say. Either stop talking about the depowered Doomhammer nonsense, or admit that the same can be said about defeating Arthas because these are identical cases where the weapon in the players is described as more powerful than in the hands of the previous owners.
Well, you really are an Arthas fanboy and it's pretty obvious from your post that you also act like an arrogant jerk while knowing absolutely nothing and ignoring what makes you uncomfortable.
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But we do not mention the knowledge of SL at all. We're only talking about Chronicles and the Arthas book or Dave Kosak's tweet. It looks like your ass is on fire that your deity is not as strong as you want.
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The information in the Chronicle does not contradict the information in the book. For example, in Rise of the Horde, Ki'ljaeden was named the most powerful of all the Eredar leaders, and in Chronicle 2 he was named the most brilliant of them all. These two facts do not contradict each other and you can see Illidan's arrogance in the book. If he wanted to, he could just immediately start burning Arthas alive and Arthas couldn't do anything against it.
Mannoroth was constantly busy with the portal. Your task is to literally break his concentration, which is why Malfurion can only exorcise the demons from the portal after defeating Mannoroth.
I didn't quite understand what you wrote here. Are you describing how much strength it took to defeat Xuen? What artifact weapon are you talking about? Fists of Ra? Because Lei Shen did not learn to control them and did not use them in the battle against Xuen. The power of Ra also does not make you equal to the Elemental Lord. Ra needed the help of Hodir and Thorim to defeat AlAkir. You really shouldn't act like a lore expert if you don't even know these basic things.
Last edited by darkoms; 2022-05-20 at 12:01 PM.
Illidan, a fighter is defined by his agility, was able to physically overpower Arthas, and opted to torment and mock him by burning him with fel fire instead of pushing the assault he was already winning. Moreover, instead of continuing the winning strategy, he decided to combine the Twin Blades of Azzinoth into a single weapon to finish off Arthas, and in doing so leaving himself exposed. Arthas won because Illidan saw himself as already having won.Originally Posted by Arthas: Rise of the Lich King
So your argument was that Mannoroth, who was the one controlling the chaotic energies of the Well of Eternity to hold open the portal, would be able to stop focusing on the portal, which he alone was holding open, and it would remain stable because of reasons unstated, ignoring that Illidan even explicitly states that Mannoroth maintained a connection to the Well of Eternity as the fight progresses. Amazing.
Lei Shen never used the Fist of Ra-den, and it was explicitly stated several times that he did not:I don't "believe" anything. Xuen simply scales to a far stronger character. Namely, the Ra+Aman'Thul empowered, Artifact weapon carrying Lei Shen who scales to Elemental Lords by virtue of having Ra's power. Meanwhile, Cenarius is practically featless.
Regarding Xuen vs. Lei Shen, you're presenting it disingenuously. Xuen survived because of his speed, not because he could match Lei Shen's might, and Lei Shen was only impressed by Xuen's tenacity, not his power.Originally Posted by The Fist of Ra-den, Part Seven
Originally Posted by The Duel of Thunder and Strength
Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief
In the quote:
Xuen fought with speed and strength (with "strength" being ambiguous, given it being synonymous with a strong sense of character in several quests in Pandaria), and Lei Shen fought with sorcery and hate (which supports the idea of "strength" not being literal and likely being an inner strength).Originally Posted by The Duel of Thunder and Strength
Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief
Lich King > Illidan >Tichondrius≈Mannoroth
I guess