Proof that old Talents promoted more originality from players

[Kehego]

All that I know is I will use the spec I like the most not what others want of me and probably still perform better than 90% of the player base as I have since Wrath once I grasped the game at a deeper level.

Skill Level > Min/Maxing

Min/Maxing = Trying Too Hard

If people are not doing cutting edge content stop worrying about it.

pass, there's always someone else in queue that can perform better.

[Unholyground]

pass, there's always someone else in queue that can perform better.

Maybe, just depends. Someone like me may have taken a utility ability that saves the tank or healer's ass and now the group finishes the mythic because a wipe was prevented. You have to look at the bigger picture.

[Celement]

Maybe, just depends. Someone like me may have taken a utility ability that saves the tank or healer's ass and now the group finishes the mythic because a wipe was prevented. You have to look at the bigger picture.

And covenants will finally bring "real" "meaningful" "rpg" choices!

I swear it's no wonder the devs repeat the same mistakes when the community gets hyped for the same horrifically bad ideas every time.

[loras]

for every 1 brokenly good mishmash spec, there are 15 bad ones

True, but no one is forced to play them.

That said: I get what you mean. The current systems at least forces Blizzard to look at the fact that some of their "choices" are just not genuinely viable in a competitive environment. With the old talents there were so many options that saying one spec sucks got the response of "well don't go full into just one then".

Not saying it's pretty or perfect, but it did allow players to "fix" mediocre speccs and playstyles on their own by mixing and matching, and invent new ones in the process.

And given that the balance is still very far from perfect, idem for the gameplay, then why not leave that freedom in the players' hands? With every new class added we move further from possible perfection anyway, might as well accept it as a fact and build around it by giving not just the devs but the players freedom too to try their hand at fixing that which is unperfectable.

[Unholyground]

And covenants will finally bring "real" "meaningful" "rpg" choices!

I swear it's no wonder the devs repeat the same mistakes when the community gets hyped for the same horrifically bad ideas every time.

The player base was extremely vocal way back when they removed the ability to do hybrid trees in the first place, it's not something new and it's been there since they changed it.

Specs are too fine tuned and that makes them boring for people who like constant change and that's a lot of people.

And since there's gonna be a bunch of spec sheets you can save out it's the best of both worlds you can have the best performing spec if you want to and a bunch of other ones that you can change to for a different situations. It's just now you're not locked into a very narrow gameplay style that they've force fed you.

[Celement]

The player base was extremely vocal way back when they removed the ability to do hybrid trees in the first place, it's not something new and it's been there since they changed it.

Specs are too fine tuned and that makes them boring for people who like constant change and that's a lot of people.

And since there's gonna be a bunch of spec sheets you can save out it's the best of both worlds you can have the best performing spec if you want to and a bunch of other ones that you can change to for a different situations. It's just now you're not locked into a very narrow gameplay style that they've force fed you.

" lotta people"

Points to SLs covenant break down by spec.

" How many times do we need to teach you this lesson old man?"

[Temp name]

So you listed what, 2-3 specs for each class? Unless you play one or two specs right now, you have plenty of choice in where you put your talents.

So there weren't more originality, there were just more options to make the wrong choice, which I mean.. I guess that's a form of originality? But it's not really that nice

[Unholyground]

" lotta people"

Points to SLs covenant break down by spec.

" How many times do we need to teach you this lesson old man?"

Yeah but that's different you didn't have access to all them at the same time so it's not the same thing at all.

This talent tree system is more akin to the Druid affinity talent row allowing you to be good at more than just your narrow spec set of abilities.

[Celement]

Yeah but that's different you didn't have access to all them at the same time so it's not the same thing at all.

This talent tree system is more akin to the Druid affinity talent row allowing you to be good at more than just your narrow spec set of abilities.

I am beyond skeptical the practical results of it will be anything close to seeing diversity of builds.

I think if there was a time were such things thrived and I'm not convinced there ever really was beyond wows earliest days. That it is long dead and buried.

I rather have specs have static kites at this point then larping that a choice comes down to more then counting the number of targets in a fight.

[Unholyground]

I am beyond skeptical the practical results of it will be anything close to seeing diversity of builds.

I think if there was a time were such things thrived and I'm not convinced there ever really was beyond wows earliest days. That it is long dead and buried.

I rather have specs have static kites at this point then larping that a choice comes down to more then counting the number of targets in a fight.

The problem is people care too much about numbers above all else. If it's about numbers you're not truly enjoying the game for what it is and that can probably be directly connected to add-ons to some degree. Blizzard kind of designed themselves into a corner and around add-ons so it just compounded the issue over the years. Blizzard even admitted that they had no choice but to design around community add-ons and has caused issues balancing stuff in future expensions.

[Kehego]

The player base was extremely vocal way back when they removed the ability to do hybrid trees in the first place, it's not something new and it's been there since they changed it.

Specs are too fine tuned and that makes them boring for people who like constant change and that's a lot of people.

And since there's gonna be a bunch of spec sheets you can save out it's the best of both worlds you can have the best performing spec if you want to and a bunch of other ones that you can change to for a different situations. It's just now you're not locked into a very narrow gameplay style that they've force fed you.

by playerbase you mean the people who thought they were clever and could make their own builds.
cata/mop talents that gave you spec/role defining talents for free at level 10 changed the game for the better tbh, no more wondering if the guy that joined has the base toolkit that he needs to perform.

the second content opened up to randomized pugs, toolkits had to be standardized. even with the proposed DF talents you're gonna have like 70% of your toolkit and 100% of the spells you need to perform the role you specced into, without even seeing them. Because pugs won't really work without that and the game has been based around pug content for some time now

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The problem is people care too much about numbers above all else. If it's about numbers you're not truly enjoying the game for what it is and that can probably be directly connected to add-ons to some degree. Blizzard kind of designed themselves into a corner and around add-ons so it just compounded the issue over the years. Blizzard even admitted that they had no choice but to design around community add-ons and has caused issues balancing stuff in future expensions.

yes yes yes its blizzards fault that people used addons to break the game and now they participate in the arms race /s

[KOUNTERPARTS]

So... like in typical Shadowpunk fashion... no proof at all. Just a thread stating an opinion.

[Mardux]

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BbgROZ9STY

Video features crazy player created specs from Wrath era:

-Honor Among Thieves Rogue
-AoE Fan of Knives interrupt and silence Rogue (pvp)
-Spell Power Enhancement Shaman
-Prot Holy Paladin (converting stamina into spell power...later changed to strength into spell power)
-Preg Pala (Prot Holy Ret Paladin)
-Necromancer caster ranged Deathknight (pvp)
-Dancing rune blood DK DPS (pre nerf)
-Arms Prot Tank Warrior
-Frostfire Mage

And there were many more player created inventions in specs some of which had to be nerfed.

I can log into retail and pick the worse talents in every slot and be "original". That doesn't make it good.

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Yeah but that's different you didn't have access to all them at the same time so it's not the same thing at all.

This talent tree system is more akin to the Druid affinity talent row allowing you to be good at more than just your narrow spec set of abilities.

We do have access to all of them. We don't have to ability to use all covs at the same time, but we have access to them. And just like covs, we have never been able to use all talents at the same time.

[Diaphin]

All that I know is I will use the spec I like the most not what others want of me and probably still perform better than 90% of the player base as I have since Wrath once I grasped the game at a deeper level.

Skill Level > Min/Maxing

Min/Maxing = Trying Too Hard

If people are not doing cutting edge content stop worrying about it.

Yeah, that sounds like some kind of Sword Art Online Power Fantasy. I guess you also had a bunch of very attractive girls fall in love with you on the way because you were such a pro-gamer guy who does his thing. The thing with min/maxing is that its part of ones personal skill level and grasp of the game on a fundamental numerical level, therefore being able to understand which rotation, stat combination and talent choices will improve your performance the most.

What you talk about on the other hand is how Reki Kawahara imagines gaming works, that you have super reflexes that just makes you play the game perfectly without all this nerd stuff being needed which is for losers. Also that being a pro-gamer grants a guy a harem, when I'm pretty sure the guy in his Everquest guild who inspired that idea in the guy was probably just a pretty chill and fairly attractive dude irl.

[Unholyground]

by playerbase you mean the people who thought they were clever and could make their own builds.
cata/mop talents that gave you spec/role defining talents for free at level 10 changed the game for the better tbh, no more wondering if the guy that joined has the base toolkit that he needs to perform.

the second content opened up to randomized pugs, toolkits had to be standardized. even with the proposed DF talents you're gonna have like 70% of your toolkit and 100% of the spells you need to perform the role you specced into, without even seeing them. Because pugs won't really work without that and the game has been based around pug content for some time now

- - - Updated - - -



yes yes yes its blizzards fault that people used addons to break the game and now they participate in the arms race /s

They literally admitted in a recent development interview that it's their fault for allowing so many different types of add ons.

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Yeah, that sounds like some kind of Sword Art Online Power Fantasy. I guess you also had a bunch of very attractive girls fall in love with you on the way because you were such a pro-gamer guy who does his thing. The thing with min/maxing is that its part of ones personal skill level and grasp of the game on a fundamental numerical level, therefore being able to understand which rotation, stat combination and talent choices will improve your performance the most.

What you talk about on the other hand is how Reki Kawahara imagines gaming works, that you have super reflexes that just makes you play the game perfectly without all this nerd stuff being needed which is for losers. Also that being a pro-gamer grants a guy a harem, when I'm pretty sure the guy in his Everquest guild who inspired that idea in the guy was probably just a pretty chill and fairly attractive dude irl.

I have had lots of attractive girls fall in love with me I'm pretty good looking overall bro I'm smart to boot lol.

[Zoopy]

I blame this kind of thing not so much on Blizzard as I do on players. Players will, when given the chance, optimize the fun right out of a game. And it stretches far beyond just WoW. Every single game has people scurrying to follow the meta builds or whatever builds their favorite streamer is using.

When I started playing WoW, it was rare to come across min-maxers and we laughed at that kind of playstyle. Now that's the dominant playstyle.

[Kehego]

They literally admitted in a recent development interview that it's their fault for allowing so many different types of add ons.

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I have had lots of attractive girls fall in love with me I'm pretty good looking overall bro I'm smart to boot lol.

yes yes its blizzards fault for allowing people to make game breaking third party additions to their game

yes yes yes that makes perfect sense.

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I blame this kind of thing not so much on Blizzard as I do on players. Players will, when given the chance, optimize the fun right out of a game. And it stretches far beyond just WoW. Every single game has people scurrying to follow the meta builds or whatever builds their favorite streamer is using.

When I started playing WoW, it was rare to come across min-maxers and we laughed at that kind of playstyle. Now that's the dominant playstyle.

eh. meta specs were prevalent from the jump. only difference now is that you can respec at will instead of paying 5g incremental fees.

[Sluvs]

I think very few people will say that the old trees do not promote originality.

But most will agree that originality does not mean optimal.

And they will also agree that since this is kinda of a numbers game, people will pick the build that gives them the bigger numbers.

[cocomen2]

Full tree of same OLD boring talents ... nothing new. /SADshit

Bring back StanceDance, remove big CD's from GCD, allow players weapon swap in combat with bigger range of special effects bound to weapon enchants, let Death knights wield shields ... since its ridiculus when people say that Undeads can't be Paladins since lore says that they would suffers all the time from Light burning their bodies from the inside, while Death Knights can't equip basic wooden shield for some cursed lore reasons? its their Cryptonite?

[rarhyx]

I think very few people will say that the old trees do not promote originality.

But most will agree that originality does not mean optimal.

And they will also agree that since this is kinda of a numbers game, people will pick the build that gives them the bigger numbers.

basically this
in wrath I used one cookie cutter build for raiding
but for questing and dungeons (only when I got better gear) I used some completely other builds which weren't usebale for raids but for solo play it was fun enough