The apparent formula for new classes in WoW

[Teriz]

Dude, you're just stuffing your head deeper and deeper into the concrete. Sorry, the sand. You believe both are the same, amirite?

Your original post heavily implies, unambiguously, that the Explorer's League was first introduced in Hearthstone and then later added into WoW. You said absolutely nothing about specific characters.

And now that you've been called out on it, by multiple people, no less, you refuse to own up to your mistake.

And once again, you google Explorer's League Hearthstone, and these characters pop up;



Let's stop being obtuse please. The POINT is that 3 out of 4 of those characters were introduced in Hearthstone, and became so popular that they wound up in other WC media like WoW. That wouldn't happen if WC fans stuck to one type of media and didn't migrate to other media across the franchise.

If HotS was still a thing, I wouldn't be surprised if they showed up as playable characters in that game as well.

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It's good that you put the emphasis on "apparent".

Because we've tried to see patterns and formula in Blizzard releases and designs. It fails most of the time.

Again, we're 4/4 with this formula. I don't see Blizzard deviating from it any time soon, if ever.

[[Apok]]

Didn't your claims previously amount to a new class simply had to have an w3 class that they were based off of?.

The mental gymnastics you people pull, honestly.

[Teriz]

Didn't your claims previously amount to a new class simply had to have an w3 class that they were based off of?.

The mental gymnastics you people pull, honestly.

WC3 didn't have classes, they had standard and hero units that many WoW classes were based on. The point is that WoW's classes have always roots in Blizzard's RTS and MOBA games.

[Triceron]

WC3 didn't have classes, they had standard and hero units that many WoW classes were based on. The point is that WoW's classes have always roots in Blizzard's RTS and MOBA games.

Eh, that's a stretch considering they deliberately chose not to have the Dracthyr and Evoker directly source the RTS or MOBAs. It's a very unique twist on the concepts that aren't even straight up sourcing Heroes of the Storm. Instead of a very clear Alexstrazsa Red Dragon Healer spec and Chromie Bronze Dragon DPS spec, they mixed it up and have Bronze be healer while Red is DPS. And abilities like Wing Buffet aren't even part of the Evoker class, but made into the Dracthyr's racial ability.

The Evoker class is really something brand new to WoW. I would say a few abilities are inspired by HOTS, but to say the Evoker has roots in the RTS or MOBA is absolutely a stretch when Evokers and Dracthyr do not directly source the actual Dragon characters in the RTS or MOBA. Like, we're talking less than 10% of the Evoker is influenced by HOTS.

[Iain]

The POINT is that 3 out of 4 of those characters were introduced in Hearthstone, and became so popular that they wound up in other WC media like WoW. That wouldn't happen if WC fans stuck to one type of media and didn't migrate to other media across the franchise.

I see a lot of people remarking that Hearthstone's art, concepts and lore is what they wish WoW was like. It's probably because Hearthstone's art team was once WoW's art team at some point.

I mean...



Imagine the hype if this were a trailer for procedural causal dungeons appearing all over Azeroth.

[Teriz]

Eh, that's a stretch considering they deliberately chose not to have the Dracthyr and Evoker directly source the RTS or MOBAs. It's a very unique twist on the concepts that aren't even straight up sourcing Heroes of the Storm. Instead of a very clear Alexstrazsa Red Dragon Healer spec and Chromie Bronze Dragon DPS spec, they mixed it up and have Bronze be healer while Red is DPS. And abilities like Wing Buffet aren't even part of the Evoker class, but made into the Dracthyr's racial ability.

The actual stretch is pretending that the incoming Evoker abilities didn't come from HotS because they're in a certain spec.

The Evoker class is really something brand new to WoW. I would say a few abilities are inspired by HOTS, but to say the Evoker has roots in the RTS or MOBA is absolutely a stretch when Evokers and Dracthyr do not directly source the actual Dragon characters in the RTS or MOBA. Like, we're talking less than 10% of the Evoker is influenced by HOTS.

You have the confirmed Evoker ability list to confirm that?

[Ielenia]

Why would Blizzard choose an unpopular character to headline their expansion?

Ask them, not me.

And yeah, you have no evidence to support your claim that the average WoW player doesn't consume non-WoW WC media. Not surprising.

Neither do you to back up your claims that Chen was a popular character before the announcement of MoP despite him being an obscure character. I'm dismissing your claim without evidence.

New Landmass with tons of history in WC
Tomb of Sargeras
Past lore with Illidan, Gul'dan, and Maiev
Ancient Night Elf connections

It's not that hard to figure out.

What's not hard to "figure out" is how you're talking out of your ass. This is something you always do: you keep making asserting your opinions as fact, and keep doubling-down on it when you're called out.

Every WoW expansion utilized new landmasses to tell its story.

Again, EVERY WoW expansion has utilized new landmasses.

I'll repeat for you:

So what? Nothing says that the demon would have to invade on a new landmass. They could have easily re-used the Dark Portal as their invasion point, then spread out to other landmasses, both old and new.

Feel free to re-read, and realize your mistake. But I already know you won't, because you never admit to being wrong, despite an overwhelming preponderance of evidence against you.

[quote]The other reason being that they needed a necromancer class to fit in the necromancer/undead expansion (WotLK)
False. They didn't "need" anything. On top of that, your claim is debunked by the fact the runemaster was highly considered as a potential class for WotLK.

Where has Blizzard ever said that a hybrid can't also be a dragon?

That's not how it works, Teriz. If Blizzard decides to use an already existing word that has a defined meaning in the english lexicon, then they are using that word as its already defined meaning. Otherwise, they have to explicitly and unambiguously redefine the word.

Which they haven't. Not only that, but they specifically described the word "hybrid" as how it is defined in the english lexicon: "something that is a mixture of two different things".

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And once again, you google Explorer's League Hearthstone, and these characters pop up;

It doesn't matter. That is completely irrelevant.

Because your original argument was, and I quote:

Also a prime example of this is the Explorer’s League gaining popularity in Hearthstone, and then being implemented into WoW.

And reading that it's beyond obvious to anyone reading it that you're implying that the Explorer's League was created for Hearthstone and then translated into WoW, which is a false statement to make.

You didn't say "Explorer's League's characters".

You didn't mention any specific names.

You fucked up on your argument, and people rightfully called out.

But instead of admitting and saying something along the lines of "yeah, my mistake, I meant actually these specific characters", you just double-down on your mistake and now are pissed that we're not mind readers to know what you actually meant "turn left" when you said "turn right".

Again, we're 4/4 with this formula. I don't see Blizzard deviating from it any time soon, if ever.

It's easy to claim to be "four out of four" when you keep changing your "formula" every time it fails.

[Teriz]

Ask them, not me.

I'm asking you since you have some weird notion that Chen and the Pandaren weren't popular before MoP.

Neither do you to back up your claims that Chen was a popular character before the announcement of MoP despite him being an obscure character. I'm dismissing your claim without evidence.

You mean other than the fact that he was chosen to headline a WoW expansion? I don't remember an obscure, unknown character ever headlining a WoW expansion before or since, do you?

What's not hard to "figure out" is how you're talking out of your ass. This is something you always do: you keep making asserting your opinions as fact, and keep doubling-down on it when you're called out.


Feel free to re-read, and realize your mistake. But I already know you won't, because you never admit to being wrong, despite an overwhelming preponderance of evidence against you.

The level of projection in these statements are truly outstanding...

False. They didn't "need" anything. On top of that, your claim is debunked by the fact the runemaster was highly considered as a potential class for WotLK.

You do understand that the only way my claim is debunked is if they DIDN'T release a necromancy-based class for the necromancy-based expansion right? However, since they DID release said necromancy-based class, my claim is in fact supported.

That's not how it works, Teriz. If Blizzard decides to use an already existing word that has a defined meaning in the english lexicon, then they are using that word as its already defined meaning. Otherwise, they have to explicitly and unambiguously redefine the word.

In other words, you have no example of Blizzard ever saying that a Hybrid can not be considered a dragon. Thus, a hybrid can in fact be considered a dragon in Warcraft.

Which they haven't. Not only that, but they specifically described the word "hybrid" as how it is defined in the english lexicon: "something that is a mixture of two different things".

See above. Blizzard considers the Dracthyr dragons, and Blizzard never said that a hybrid can not be a dragon.

It doesn't matter. That is completely irrelevant.

Because your original argument was, and I quote:

And reading that it's beyond obvious to anyone reading it that you're implying that the Explorer's League was created for Hearthstone and then translated into WoW, which is a false statement to make.

Which makes my original statement relevant, since anyone can simply google "Explorer's League Hearthstone" and see exactly what I'm talking about.

This entire side issue is simply your way to avoid the actual point: WC characters outside of WoW reaching a certain level of popularity and eventually winding up in WoW itself.

Just like Chen Stormstout did.

[Triceron]

The actual stretch is pretending that the incoming Evoker abilities didn't come from HotS because they're in a certain spec.

How many abilities are we talking about here?

So far, I count two. Wing Buffet and Abundance. And Wing Buffet isn't even an Evoker ability.

[Teriz]

How many abilities are we talking about here?

So far, I count two. Wing Buffet and Abundance. And Wing Buffet isn't even an Evoker ability.

Brian Holinka also mentioned Blessing of the Bronze, which is an ability from Chromie HotS, so that would make it three.

Also, Dracthyr and Evokers are one in the same. They're a race/class combination.

[Triceron]

Brian Holinka also mentioned Blessing of the Bronze, which is an ability from Chromie HotS, so that would make it three.

Also, Dracthyr and Evokers are one in the same. They're a race/class combination.

They're not one and the same, they're merely exclusive to each other. That is why they still have Racials and not every ability is tied to the Evoker class, like Wing Buffet or the transformation between Dracthyr and Humanoid forms. This becomes more apparant if Dracthyr opens up to other classes in the future.

[Teriz]

They're not one and the same, they're merely exclusive to each other. That is why they still have Racials and not every ability is tied to the Evoker class, like Wing Buffet or the transformation between Dracthyr and Humanoid forms. This becomes more apparant if Dracthyr opens up to other classes in the future.

I'm talking about currently, not future speculation. Currently, a key feature of the Dracthyr Evoker is that it is WoW's first race/class combination. Blizzard is even pushing this fact on their website;

https://dragonflight.blizzard.com/en-us/

So I would say the chances of the Dracthyr being other classes is slim to none. Until that happens, when you talk about Dracthyr, you're also talking about Evokers, and vice versa.

[Triceron]

I'm talking about currently, not future speculation. Currently, a key feature of the Dracthyr Evoker is that it is WoW's first race/class combination. Blizzard is even pushing this fact on their website;

https://dragonflight.blizzard.com/en-us/

So I would say the chances of the Dracthyr being other classes is slim to none. Until that happens, when you talk about Dracthyr, you're also talking about Evokers, and vice versa.

The same source you got Holinka talking about Blessing of the Bronze literally has him talking about Dracthyr Racials, as being separate from the class.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...n-Dragonflight!

There's no reason for Blizzard to acknowledge them as Racial abilities if they are just Evoker abilities.

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The same source you got Holinka talking about Blessing of the Bronze literally has him talking about Dracthyr Racials, as being separate from the class.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...n-Dragonflight!

There's no reason for Blizzard to acknowledge them as Racial abilities if they are just Evoker abilities.

You have the confirmed Evoker ability list to confirm that?

Just do the math. How many possible abilities can be drawn from Heroes of the Storm? How many abilities does a WoW class need to be fully embraced, and how many have we seen that are completely new and not sourced from Heroes?

Fudge the numbers all you like, it's not going up higher than 20% tops, especially when there are plenty of HOTS abilities that we know aren't going to make it into WoW, like Alexstrasza's Dragon Form and Cleansing Flame and Chromie's Sand Blasts (Bronze is not a DPS spec). It's unlikely that Time Trap will be brought into the game either, since the functionality of that ability is designed like a Trap/Ward effect, and it doesn't look like Evoker is going to be inhabiting any of that gameplay. They look to be designed as a mobile spellcaster.

Also from what we've seen of their current abilities, many of them are completely new rather than hinging on Heroes abilities. We don't actually know if they even have Abundance; we've just seen a ground AoE heal that looks like Abundance. Considering Green is the Healer spec, it could be a completely new ability for all we know.

[Teriz]

The same source you got Holinka talking about Blessing of the Bronze literally has him talking about Dracthyr Racials, as being separate from the class.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...n-Dragonflight!

There's no reason for Blizzard to acknowledge them as Racial abilities if they are just Evoker abilities.

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Other than the fact that Blizzard established that they created the Dracthyr race specifically to house Evoker abilities. Again, we're talking about a race/class that is specifically designed to emulate a dragon akin to Alexstraza or Wrathion. Like those characters, the race and the class are one in the same.

Just do the math. How many possible abilities can be drawn from Heroes of the Storm? How many abilities does a WoW class need to be fully embraced, and how many have we seen that are completely new and not sourced from Heroes?

Fudge the numbers all you like, it's not going up higher than 20% tops, especially when there are plenty of HOTS abilities that we know aren't going to make it into WoW, like Alexstrasza's Dragon Form and Cleansing Flame and Chromie's Sand Blasts (Bronze is not a DPS spec). It's unlikely that Time Trap will be brought into the game either, since the functionality of that ability is designed like a Trap/Ward effect, and it doesn't look like Evoker is going to be inhabiting any of that gameplay. They look to be designed as a mobile spellcaster.

Also from what we've seen of their current abilities, many of them are completely new rather than hinging on Heroes abilities. We don't actually know if they even have Abundance; we've just seen a ground AoE heal that looks like Abundance. Considering Green is the Healer spec, it could be a completely new ability for all we know.

Between Chromie, Deathwing, and Alexstraza we're looking at around 60+ abilities and talents. I agree that some abilities like Time Trap simply wouldn't fit. However, abilities like Flame Buffet, Temporal Loop, Dragonflight, Cataclysm, Timewalker's Pursuit, Blessing of the Red, Skyfall, Cleansing Flames, Life Binder, Exuberance, Life Unbound, Gift of Life, etc. are all on the table as possible ability inclusions. We'll know soon enough when we see the Evoker talent trees.

[Ielenia]

I'm asking you since you have some weird notion that Chen and the Pandaren weren't popular before MoP.

And you have this weird notion that Chen was popular before MoP, and you never showed any evidence of that.

You mean other than the fact that he was chosen to headline a WoW expansion?

Which, again, means nothing. Blizzard is free to bring to prominence any character in their franchise they want, regardless of popularity (or lack thereof) or obscurity.

I don't remember an obscure, unknown character ever headlining a WoW expansion before or since, do you?

How about Deathwing? Y'know, the dragon that appeared in Warcraft 2 (as a green dragon, no less) and then was mentioned... how many times before that?

The level of projection in these statements are truly outstanding...

Teriz, no one is going to agree with you on this. You keep asserting your opinions as fact, and you never accept any other possibility. It's akin to flipping a coin twice, both times landing on heads face up, and then declaring that this coin will always land on heads face up while at the same time calling 'delusional' everyone who dares to mention that the coin could land on the tails side up.

You do understand that the only way my claim is debunked is if they DIDN'T release a necromancy-based class for the necromancy-based expansion right?

Wrong. If "necromancy-based" was indeed such a necessary-- nay, mandatory requirement, the runemaster would never even be considered as an option, much less one of the three runner-ups.

In other words, you have no example of Blizzard ever saying that a Hybrid can not be considered a dragon. Thus, a hybrid can in fact be considered a dragon in Warcraft.

Stop pretending to be an idiot. "Hybrid" is a word that has a defined meaning in the real world. And if Blizzard intends to use that specific word and give it a different meaning than what it really means, then it's on them to redefine the word for their use. And since they did no such thing, it means they're using the real world definition of the word "hybrid", which means "mixture of two different constituents".

See above. Blizzard considers the Dracthyr dragons, and Blizzard never said that a hybrid can not be a dragon.

By that stupidly inane logic, Blizzard also never said that a hybrid can be a dragon.

Which makes my original statement relevant, since anyone can simply google "Explorer's League Hearthstone" and see exactly what I'm talking about.

Why don't you stop acting so dense and just admit you made an error in communication? If you had said "ah, I misspoke. I actually meant these specific characters. My bad." then no one would have a problem with it and the conversation would have moved on.

But instead you just double-down on your mistake and have the gall to accuse us of being wrong for not being able to read your mind to know what you truly meant when you wrote something that really, in no way, shape or form means what you want it to mean.

This entire side issue is simply your way to avoid the actual point: WC characters outside of WoW reaching a certain level of popularity and eventually winding up in WoW itself.

Just like Chen Stormstout did.

Chen Stormstout was never popular before MoP. Ever.

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They (Evoker) look to be designed as a mobile spellcaster.

Just wanted to say I dunno about that, considering one key gameplay aspect of the class is the "charge" ability where you hold down a button, and I'm not sure if you'll be able to do that and still be able to move.

[Triceron]

Between Chromie, Deathwing, and Alexstraza we're looking at around 60+ abilities and talents. I agree that some abilities like Time Trap simply wouldn't fit. However, abilities like Flame Buffet, Temporal Loop, Dragonflight, Cataclysm, Timewalker's Pursuit, Blessing of the Red, Skyfall, Cleansing Flames, Life Binder, Exuberance, Life Unbound, Gift of Life, etc. are all on the table as possible ability inclusions. We'll know soon enough when we see the Evoker talent trees.

Again do the math.

Out of 60+, you're talking about maybe 12 abilities out of the bunch which aren't just talents boosting existing abilities, and then you chop that number down further by eliminating those that simply don't translate well into WoW gameplay mechanics, like Cleansing Flame and Time Traps. That leaves a literal handful of abilities which would be sourced, because we're obviously seeing many new abilities be introduced as well like Pyre, Soar and the Arcane abilities they used to demonstrate Empower.

Abundance and a name drop of Blessing of the Bronze are literally the only two relevant abilities so far. How many more from your list of 60 could you really apply here?

[Teriz]

And you have this weird notion that Chen was popular before MoP, and you never showed any evidence of that.

Other than him appearing throughout WC media and merchandise, and his race being one of the most requested race long before MoP.

Where's your evidence to the contrary?

Which, again, means nothing.

It's hilarious that you ask for evidence, and when that evidence is brought forward, you say that "it means nothing".

How about Deathwing? Y'know, the dragon that appeared in Warcraft 2 (as a green dragon, no less) and then was mentioned... how many times before that?

Considering that you believe that Chen was an obscure or unpopular character before MoP, I'm not surprised that you think that way of Deathwing.

Wrong. If "necromancy-based" was indeed such a necessary-- nay, mandatory requirement, the runemaster would never even be considered as an option, much less one of the three runner-ups.

Again, the Runemaster being considered is irrelevant, because the DK is what was implemented.

Stop pretending to be an idiot. "Hybrid" is a word that has a defined meaning in the real world.

Which we're not talking about. We're talking about a mythical creature in a fantasy world that is completely defined by the creators of said fantasy world.

By that stupidly inane logic, Blizzard also never said that a hybrid can be a dragon.

They consider Dracthyr dragons. Dracthyr are hybrids, thus they have stated as such.

Why don't you stop acting so dense and just admit you made an error in communication? If you had said "ah, I misspoke. I actually meant these specific characters. My bad." then no one would have a problem with it and the conversation would have moved on.

But instead you just double-down on your mistake and have the gall to accuse us of being wrong for not being able to read your mind to know what you truly meant when you wrote something that really, in no way, shape or form means what you want it to mean.

And here you are again avoiding the point yet again.

Chen Stormstout was never popular before MoP. Ever.

Interesting that a character that was never popular was seemingly able to popularize the Pandaren race, and headline an expansion. If only you could provide some evidence outside of your personal opinion.

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Again do the math.

Out of 60+, you're talking about maybe 12 abilities out of the bunch which aren't just talents boosting existing abilities, and then you chop that number down further by eliminating those that simply don't translate well into WoW gameplay mechanics, like Cleansing Flame and Time Traps. That leaves a literal handful of abilities which would be sourced, because we're obviously seeing many new abilities be introduced as well like Pyre, Soar and the Arcane abilities they used to demonstrate Empower.

Abundance and a name drop of Blessing of the Bronze are literally the only two relevant abilities so far. How many more from your list of 60 could you really apply here?

That's not how it works.

What happens is that abilities are taken from the RTS/MOBA, placed into the class, and then expanded upon.

For example, in the Shaman class, Serpent, Sentry, and Healing Ward from WC3 were expanded into over 20 different totems. In the Druid class, Rejuvenation and Tranquility formed the basis for Regrowth, Swiftmend, Lifebloom, and other spells.

In the case of the Evoker class, abilities like Abundance, and Blessing of the Bronze will set up a host of other abilities within the class. It's not simply the spells being brought over from HotS, it's what other abilities are inspired by those core abilities.

[Triceron]

For example, in the Shaman class, Serpent, Sentry, and Healing Ward from WC3 were expanded into over 20 different totems. In the Druid class, Rejuvenation and Tranquility formed the basis for Regrowth, Swiftmend, Lifebloom, and other spells.

In the case of the Evoker class, abilities like Abundance, and Blessing of the Bronze will set up a host of other abilities within the class. It's not simply the spells being brought over from HotS, it's what other abilities are inspired by those core abilities.

So you would say the Priest is rooted in the Demon Hunter from WC3 because it had Mana Burn?

[Beefhammer]

at what point in the thread you linked you find the 4 characteristics to use your formula?? it starts with "most accept it will be about dragon" and that was all speculation onward just based on this....

you don't know if all 4 characteristics are there before they tell about the xpac and when they do, you know if there is a new class/what the new class is. so yea at this point it's easy to connect the points ....

fact is I don't remember anybody guessing anything close to the invoker class or it's abilities. but maybe I missed your speculation thread where you apply your formula and find out about the invoker class before the reveal

if it's just: "oh they copyrighted the dragonflight name!! I reckon it's gonna be about dragons and if there is a new class, it will most likely fit the theme" then good job!!
I guess....

It's the nostradamus effect. A future prediction that no one knew what it was until it happened and people went back and shoehorned it in to fit.

[Teriz]

So you would say the Priest is rooted in the Demon Hunter from WC3 because it had Mana Burn?

Mana Burn led to other spells in the Shadow spec. Heal, Dispel, and Inner Fire had influence in the Holy and Discipline specs.

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It's the nostradamus effect. A future prediction that no one knew what it was until it happened and people went back and shoehorned it in to fit.

Except that prediction was made long before the expansion announcement.