Why do I need to support the Horde rebuilding Tirisfal as an Alliance player?

[VladlTutushkin]

Right. Do give examples. Particularly where the nation giving intel then engages in joint military action with their enemy they gave the intel to.

Same goes to you @Feanoro. I'm waiting with bated breath for you to impress me with your military genius.




What? Genn's first appearance in BFA is during the Alliance attack on Lordaeron. He wasn't breaking any ceasefires there.

Your sarcasm just denied you further conversation. Come back when you learn to speak respectfully, and i will respond.

[guro-tchai]

attacks that he believes are done by the horde based off nothing but his own racism even when he has people rightfully telling him it wasn’t them.

well, they're green-skinned, and they're aberrations.

1. the fact or an instance of deviating or being aberrant especially from a moral standard or normal state
2. something or someone regarded as atypical and therefore able to be ignored or discounted

nothing but stating the facts. he's not racis just dusn't loik 'em
btw, if he truly was racist, Saurfang would've been killed on the spot in ICC.

puttress and co betray the horde and join the legion this is something even Varian agrees is the case as the battle for undercity is a joint horde alliance effort, the horde isn’t responsible even by alliance standards.

should have been more attentive to the evil among them. it's the moral duty of the Alliance to elevate the peoples of the Horde to a proper level of governance.

Yes this is nothing serious as far as Warcraft goes as the alliance also has policy’s on the books to kill forsaken on sight to “free” them

correct. the Forsaken have a soul/body connection problem. leave your rotting flesh behind and ascend to the Shadowlands. for loyal service to the Sylvanas regime you'll get a new blue twink body in Bastion and will be allowed to forget how you were brutally killed, raised and employed to vivisect your own kind. it's an unappreciated gift to the Forsaken from the magnanimous Alliance, who have to risk their lives to bestow it. jesus, why are we so good?

and would also capture “kidnap” horde members found in there land. The only thing the horde was doing that the alliance wasn’t was having arena fights, which technically wasn’t legal in the horde.

i'd like to know more about the Horde kidnappings. never seen that in-game. plenty of such stuff from the Horde though.

The forsaken had done nothing to be untrusted prior to the wrath gate and Said forsaken betray and leave the horde, keeping traitors in check isn’t something either faction does as you know they aren’t aware that they are traitors until something goes down.

At most you could say they shouldn’t have been able to make the blight but literally no one knew what the blight was so it’s kinda hard to ban something only a sylvanas and a couple of traitors know about.

they've betrayed and slaughtered the Garithos's men. that's hard to sweep under the rug.
too bad the Horde can't organize WMD check commissions. no worries, the Alliance is on it.

Varian was looking for an excuse to declare war and while the forsaken gave it to him he doesn’t actually take any real military action until the false flags in ashenvale and his first and major strikes are to try and get at the orcs ignoring the forsaken all together until the worgen get involved. For Varian the war was all about the orcs and with garrosh lacking any diplomatic tact he would always find a reason to start the war assuming garrosh didn’t beat him to it.

no, the war has been going on since Classic - but only Horde did shit like slaughtering sleeping druids in Dor'danil. Alliance was still hoping that we could talk this through.

The Horde easily deserved and deserves to be wiped out (maybe with a few exceptions, like the Horde Pandaren and some of the Blood Elves). They have not done anything less then any of the "evil" factions we wiped out. The only reason it still exists is because the writers keep protecting it by turning the Alliance into trusting idiots that allow themselves to be stabbed in the back again and again for the mercy they show.

sheesh. i admire the spirit, but isn't the Carthage solution a bit too much?
they're all ours now.
the Forsaken will be treated from their unfortunate condition - Calia's soul glue with 100% pure Light, or severing the link to transfer the soul into the Shadowlands. they'll even get their free steward!
the orcs have a different problem, which forces them to be excessively bellicose - excessively fast child development and unsustainable multiplication rate. no shit they will want to fight everything around them, they're basically children. contraceptives to slow population growth, hormone suppressants (magical i guess) in centralized water supply to delay maturation. voilà, functional members of society.
there is an ideological problem, but it's solvable. we do a little Vergangenheitsbewältigung, it's called we do a little Vergangenheitsbewältigung!

Except we do know the motives behind Alliance's attacks on the Horde during Thrall's reign and would you look at that, time and time again it was imperialism or Dwarves just waltzing in to Horde territory to dig for Titan junk.

they just haven't yet received the memo that we're about world peace now. delivery services in warcraft universe, amirite?

Which is why he went to Undercity in the first place in order to use Putress' betrayal as an opportunity to capture it and prevent the Horde from retaking one of their capital cities. He was totes legit devoted to peaceful coexistence with the Horde before his departure

why yes, peaceful coexistence involves providing proper governance, which requires seizing the place first.

Also, Odyn's entire contribution to the war effort was destroying a single Legion ship with a spear. And at the time Sylvanas was executing her plans Odyn was still locked in his mental asylum. That he escaped only because we freed him. Which we wouldn't have done if he turned against us...

the valarjar, presumably, did something against the Legion. at least they hosted warriors from all over the world.

Ditto for the Hillsbrad farmers.

"comrade Stalin didn't know a thing, the enemies have inflitrated the central committee!" rofl

But since the only Horde city he's been was Orgrimmar, he was talking about Orgrimmar. Because context is a thing no matter how hard you try to ignore it.

i'm pretty sure he had knowledge of the world and reasonably assumes that letting them run it would be a catastrophy.

Garrosh didn't even restart the war. He only invaded in the wake of the Cataclysm because he sensed an opportunity. Northwatch troops attacked the Barrens before it.

Chronicles mark the start of the war when orcs began making incursions into Ashenvale.

The peace was so null the factions formally worked together at the start of Legion.

de facto, not de jure.

Speaking of Howling Fjord, the Alliance attacked the Horde position there right at the start of the zone, before they even got a whiff of the Blight later on in its questline. And long before the Wrathgate. Which is why the attempts to misrepresent Varian's behavior in Undercity are futile anyway.

you'll have to prove that the Alliance initiated the battle there. the quest text goes something like "the northern fleet is stationed here", so the Forsaken are killing them.

[Accendor]

A bit over the top with irredeemable evil nonsense. She burned down a tree so what, it was such a non issue Elune herself let it happen.

1. You do realize it brought the night elves to the brink of extinction?
2. Its obviously not only about Teldrassil but also about events like Brennendam. I am pretty sure impaling civilians on walls and let their children watch is considered evil, at least in my book. Feel free to disagree, but if you do, it doesn't make much sense to continue this discussion ...

- - - Updated - - -

BFA? That expansion that started off with Genn choosing to break the cease-fire between Alliance and Horde? That same expansion where the Alliance attacked a group on the offchance that they *might* join the horde? That BFA?

Nope, that was Legion. Ignoring the fact that Genn was RIGHT to do it in hindsight, he still broke the cease-fire, which is a fair enough reason to complain and which would even have been a good enough reason to outright kill him.
However, please don't compare him going rogue with the stuff the horde did in BfA. It is in no way comparable. I know it's just a video game but if you can not see the difference between that attack (that was still wrong and should have been punished) and the BfA horde actions, you need your moral compass checked.

[Shadowferal]

A bit over the top with irredeemable evil nonsense. She burned down a tree so what, it was such a non issue Elune herself let it happen.

Does the word "genocide" mean anything to you?

[Combatbutler]

1. You do realize it brought the night elves to the brink of extinction?
2. Its obviously not only about Teldrassil but also about events like Brennendam. I am pretty sure impaling civilians on walls and let their children watch is considered evil, at least in my book. Feel free to disagree, but if you do, it doesn't make much sense to continue this discussion ...

The wow moral system disagrees the good treasure pelagos ultimately decides and he decreed, no soul is irredeemable no matter what and that is that.Heck even prior to that you had people who were not directly sent to the maw, who had wiped out entire planets.

Does the word "genocide" mean anything to you?

Doesn't mean much in the wow universe, a genocide is a dime a dozen

[Jackstraw]

In fact you DO exchange intel with enemies when you know they will use it to take down another enemy. It is not most oftenly used strategy but it is not uncommon either.

No. It's straight up uncommon and unless mandated even chargeable with various degrees of treason, even more so in the modern day.

We're talking about straight up intel exchange to face a common threat, not fake leaks or the likes, which are kind of common in this post truth information age.

About everything else, I wonder sometimes why are we bothering with these conversations. There's nothing to be gained discussing topics with people who would argue about the color of the sky because hurr durr Horde bad.

[Shadowferal]

Doesn't mean much in the wow universe, a genocide is a dime a dozen

It should be a deal breaker in the Alliance.

[Combatbutler]

It should be a deal breaker in the Alliance.

To be fair both factions should have ended ages ago, with the races pretty much doing their own thing, only coming together when necessary, instead they are funneled in into braindamaged faction 1 and braindead faction 2.

[Shadowferal]

To be fair both factions should have ended ages ago, with the races pretty much doing their own thing, only coming together when necessary, instead they are funneled in into braindamaged faction 1 and braindead faction 2.

*sigh* I've had this idea of three factions (four, but that's something else).
I'm certain Blizzard can't get its own head out of its ass. It's on "rinse and repeat" factions plays nice; factions treachery; factions war.

[PsychoSe7eN]

OP, u make it sound like the Alliance are innocent. They are no better than the horde as far as crimes against humanity. Just look at the history and feel free to puke. You can take your faction bias BS and KFO. Alliance are helping because we are reciprocating. If you want to be a radical Alliance petty player, have at it. No one would miss you.

[Ardenaso]

OP, u make it sound like the Alliance are innocent. They are no better than the horde as far as crimes against humanity. Just look at the history and feel free to puke. You can take your faction bias BS and KFO. Alliance are helping because we are reciprocating. If you want to be a radical Alliance petty player, have at it. No one would miss you.

[Combatbutler]

*sigh* I've had this idea of three factions (four, but that's something else).
I'm certain Blizzard can't get its own head out of its ass. It's on "rinse and repeat" factions plays nice; factions treachery; factions war.

You'd need far more than four, heck in an actual world allies of today could be enemies a month down the road and allies in a few month again. It all depends on the circumstances and the writing, but doing something like this, is not easy, so won't happen

[VladlTutushkin]

OP, u make it sound like the Alliance are innocent. They are no better than the horde as far as crimes against humanity. Just look at the history and feel free to puke. You can take your faction bias BS and KFO. Alliance are helping because we are reciprocating. If you want to be a radical Alliance petty player, have at it. No one would miss you.

“No better then the Horde” thats straight up false.

Much better in fact. Alliance has “shades of grey” but Horde is just one black puddle at this point.

Also i am still waiting for Horde to help the Alliance like that.

[cparle87]

She couldnt save the people either. WoW deities dont save their people by overly direct means anyway.

Considering Elune is the only "true" deity according to Blizz that we've encountered I'm gonna need a citation for that.

[Combatbutler]

She couldnt save the people either. WoW deities dont save their people by overly direct means anyway.

Bwonsamedi kept troll souls save, despite being a lesser loa. But then again Elune is an overglorified toaster now.

Considering Elune is the only "true" deity according to Blizz that we've encountered

That pretty much ended up in the garbage bin with shadowlands.

First ones are all the rage now, who most likely 3d printed her

[Mehrunes]

Your sarcasm just denied you further conversation. Come back when you learn to speak respectfully, and i will respond.

No you won't. Because it's not my sarcasm that "denied" me further conversation here. The sarcasm in that post wasn't even directed at you but at @Feanoro. The part directed at you was just me asking you to give examples of what you stated is happening. And asking you to substantiate your claims is not disrespectful in the least. It's one of the basics of a discussion.

On top of that you are in no position to talk about speaking respectfully to me when your first reply to me in this thread was you calling me "CEO of trite" (as a very "on-point" paraphrasing on me stating one of your fellow Alliance posters was "peddling a trite narrative") and, in your usual zero-effort manner of dismissing anything you can't answer, hand-waved my detailed post (that - unlike you - I can actually substantiate with sources at a moment's notice) away with some lazy remark about my post having no substance or something along those lines (all the while the posts written by you that I quoted there showed you completely move the goalposts about the attack on the Druids in The Shattering within the span of a single reply to @Lorgar Aurelian, serving as an actual example of no-substance posting).

The real reason you won't respond to that inquiry is yet another case of you being unable to answer what was asked of you because you were blatantly making things up to validate your headcanon and then trying to save face with some cop-out instead of simply admitting that. That's why you skipped over @Jackstraw's reply to that same post as well and only tackled posts after theirs instead when you rejoined the thread right now, even though it contained no sarcasm directed even at other people.

[VladlTutushkin]

No you won't. Because it's not my sarcasm that "denied" me further conversation here. The sarcasm in that post wasn't even directed at you but at @Feanoro. The part directed at you was just me asking you to give examples of what you stated is happening. And asking you to substantiate your claims is not disrespectful in the least. It's one of the basics of a discussion.

On top of that you are in no position to talk about speaking respectfully to me when your first reply to me in this thread was you calling me "CEO of trite" (as a very "on-point" paraphrasing on me stating one of your fellow Alliance posters was "peddling a trite narrative") and, in your usual zero-effort manner of dismissing anything you can't answer, hand-waved my detailed post (that - unlike you - I can actually substantiate with sources at a moment's notice) away with some lazy remark about my post having no substance or something along those lines (all the while the posts written by you that I quoted there showed you completely move the goalposts about the attack on the Druids in The Shattering within the span of a single reply to @Lorgar Aurelian, serving as an actual example of no-substance posting).

The real reason you won't respond to that inquiry is yet another case of you being unable to answer what was asked of you because you were blatantly making things up to validate your headcanon and then trying to save face with some cop-out instead of simply admitting that. That's why you skipped over @Jackstraw's reply to that same post as well and only tackled posts after theirs instead when you rejoined the thread right now, even though it contained no sarcasm directed even at other people.

Okay (((Mehrunes))).

[Eggroll]

I have no idea what is going on in the minds of Blizzards story writes, I really do not.
It was just one expansion ago that we fought to destroy UC, now we help the forsaken to restore Lordaeron despite nothing has changed in the meantime?

I will not even start with all the other problems the alliance story ONCE AGAIN has and that only seems to be getting worse every single patch, but the whole PREMISE of this questline is so dumb, I ONCE AGAIN can't believe somebody approved it to be released.

IKR?
Also completely tone def towards night elves.
Why would night elves help the Forsaken rebuild their capital while the Horde did NOTHING to rebuild or give back the lands they took from the night elves.

AND

as a "reward" get to look just like auntie Delaryn Summermoon after dying an excrutiatingly painful death and then being ressurected as a zombie.

WAHT THE ACTUAL FUCK!!!

I appreciate they want to bring the players dark rangers. But they could at least have different storylines for Alliance and Horde how to unlock them.

Apparently, they were just too lazy - or as i like to think: Alliance players are not human beings to them, so they won't even bother.

[Combatbutler]

Apparently, they were just too lazy - or as i like to think: Alliance players are not human beings to them, so they won't even bother.

Definitely laziness, which is why they always use neutral faction to shove both factions into, instead of creating organization representing the factions, with their own spin on things.

Story problems don't really matter to blizz, because lets be real most people don't give a damn about warcrafts story. As a personal anecdote I know enough people who can't name a quarter of the faction leaders.

[Aresk]

Garrosh didn't even restart the war. He only invaded in the wake of the Cataclysm because he sensed an opportunity. Northwatch troops attacked the Barrens before it.

Yeah. I'm always baffled when people blame Garrosh for the war. He may have escalated some conflicts, but he certainly wasn't the one who started things.

The only known casualty of the conflict in Ashran is a guy whose foot got hurt and the factions buried the hatchet at the start of Legion. And Before the Storm makes it clear that the factions were already in open conflict before Sylvanas even talked to Saurfang about Ashenvale.

I'm not sure about the reference to the injured foot, but I do know the Alliance opted to bring in a carrier of reinforcements to Ashran, which the Horde then attempted to sink with their naval forces, while both groups were attempting to deal with the Legion's invasion of Tanaan in 6.2.

The Twilight Hammer agent that tried to kill Hamuul made a direct comparison between the two attacks in how Garrosh is being blamed for both. As for Thrall, in that exact same dialogue with Jaina he said he has yet to find out who the perpetrators are, so him taking responsibility was completely premature.

Oh, agreed that Thrall shouldn't have taken responsibility until he knew who committed the attack. But he believed the Horde had done it, even if he didn't know who in the Horde had done it. From the Alliance PoV, Thrall's statement is pretty condemning. Both Alliance and Thrall were presumptuous in this case, and ultimately it doesn't change the fact that the state of affairs prior to the attack was due to the Alliance's actions (both the declaration of war in WotLK and the cessation of resource trade pre-Cataclysm), but it was still an instance that contributed to increased Alliance aggression toward the Horde.

There's a bit about it in the shattering book about how an orc named I believe Gorak did it and was actively trying to spread suspicion that it was Garrosh even before hew as warcheif.

I don't recall that, but I'll revisit those passages in the text. Thanks!