Its official -- Sunwell Plateau is the real deal.

[Kralljin]

This is not about budget. That is not what Classic WoW is supposed to be, in principle. I oppose this type of rebalancing in Classic WoW altogether.

I would rather have some specs be useless than have my expectations subverted and have to rediscover the game every patch.

I think that is frankly a #nochanges mindset that Blizzard themselves have already retired.

From Seal of Blood, same Faction Battlegrounds, honor / arena point changes to being able to skip bosses in BT, they made a lot of changes in TBCC already that aren't authentic but was done to keep things more sustainable and more engaging for the player.

And taking a look at Season of Mastery, i would say that Blizzard skipping out on class changes was a huge mistake and is a reason why many people didn't stick with it, they aren't interested in replaying the same class meta without any lookout that a given spec will improve.
Similiar thing will happen in Wotlk, if you enjoy Arms early into the expansion, well too bad, because by the end of it will be a massive joke outside of PvP.

I don't think they should overhaul classes (it's not like the old talent system gives room on that front anyway), but when some specs are doing literally 50% more damage than others, then i believe changes should happen in order to keep things reasonable.
And when taking into account that Blizzard is willing to even change Wotlk in a big way by removing Dungeonfinder, i fail to see why the class meta is something that has to be enshrined and isn't allowed to be altered under any circumstance.

If Blizzard would announce that they're going to take a look at classes and make minor changes each phase, i am fairly certain that this news would have a far more positive response than the news of them removing the DF from Wotlk.

[probert]

But to be fair one reason for those numbers is because many people left the game. We had a fkton of players at the start, but through the snorefest of Kara, SSC etc over half of the players left before BT was released. Also the hardcore raiders aren't really into TBC. Even with it being a bit harder, it's still ezpz and mechanically boring most of the time when compared to live. That being said live was overtuned though...

You do realize there's more raiders logging on warcraftlogs for TBC than on retail? To be fair retail is very old at this point and they only log mythic (not heroic) so they filter out a lot, but in terms of a formal raiding scene TBC has the lion's share at the moment by a large margin.

no one denies that mythic raiding in retail is a colossal step forward in difficulty, but pretty much all the major streamers and a huge % of guilds have given up mythic nowadays as just being too punishing. at some point the content gets so hard that any sane human will just opt out, given the life commitment required.

i think that's a large part of the nostalgia for the classic wow releases... while the content is difficult, its achieveable (especially incrementally over time). 50 tries to get 'uru down by a competing guild is grueling but achieveable; some of the mythic bosses nowadays require 200+ attempts by the world's best players. fun to watch, not fun to play.

[Malania]

SWP was always a numbers and gear issue. You either had the gear and the classes required or you didn't.

By the end of the expansion we had guilds pugging a good way in or newly formed guilds with people who had the gear and XP clearing it in a week or 2 while getting setup for WotLK. SWP was always inflated in difficulty in peoples minds because it required 25 man guilds to even see the place. You couldn't just do 10 man SWP and say you'd seen the place.

Edit: Hell even trash farming was a thing in the place for decent gear for pugs.

[Radaney]

Sunwell is the real deal because you wipe 10 times before you kill the boss?

You can't even interpret the data correctly.

[Northern Goblin]

I think that's a purely numerical view of things.
Thing is, hardly any spec in TBC is useless because almost any spec bring some sort of solid raid support buff / debuff.

That doesn't change the fact specs are still missing toolkits. Active mitigation and sustainable mana for prot paladins? Decent aoe threat generation for warriors? Interrupts on certain melee specs missing. Sufficient mana management for healers and casters that aren't warlocks. Shadow priest, Rogue and Hunter aoe?

There are other examples but that's what I mean. Simply bringing a buff or debuff being a crutch to valuing those specs is bad class balance. If we didn't need 3 Paladins for blessings you know we'd kick out the Holy faster than he can cast FoL.

TBC does not have good class balance, it is held together by the ricketiest of mechanics. 25 class spots and you bring 1 rogue, 4 locks and 6 shaman? That's not balanced.

Arena dominated by RMP or Lock/Druid (again) is not balance.

Wrath didn't get it perfectly nailed on, but there was certainly more diversity and the ability to not only do well with every class, but more importantly the mechanics were fun.

There are times in TBC I want to pull my hair out, not because the fights are hard, they aren't, but I'm playing with such an overly restrictive set of abilities that I'm limited in what I can actually do.

[Nitros14]

That doesn't change the fact specs are still missing toolkits. Active mitigation and sustainable mana for prot paladins? Decent aoe threat generation for warriors? Interrupts on certain melee specs missing. Sufficient mana management for healers and casters that aren't warlocks. Shadow priest, Rogue and Hunter aoe?

To be fair that's a very intentional design decision that not all classes can do everything. They moved away from it in Wrath yes but it's not universally agreed that was a good thing. Dungeon gameplay got a lot worse in Wrath I feel.

[Kralljin]

That doesn't change the fact specs are still missing toolkits.

I think you are conflicting a missing toolkit with design decisions.

Neither Druid nor Warrior were supposed to be AoE tanks, plain and simple, you were supposed to CC in dungeons.
That modern day players interact very differentely with this is another debate.

Pallies were the designated Trash Tanks and Feral / Warr takes Bosses, both are useful in their own day.
Same reason why many classes are missing AoE, the game wasn't designed around everyone AoE'ing.

You disliking that doesn't mean it's imbalanced, it's just a different design.

Similiar story could said about many things you list.
Much of what you're listing in this post largely boils down to "I want tools from other classes for everyone" and that's frankly a road that led down the path of homogenization.

It's not that the game is missing most of the abilities you're listing, you're criticizing that they're missing from certain classes.
Classic and TBC are designed around that not everyone can do certain things, that's just how it is designed.
I don't think Pallies doing 50% less than what other healers are doing falls into the same category.

Wrath didn't get it perfectly nailed on, but there was certainly more diversity and the ability to not only do well with every class, but more importantly the mechanics were fun.

I think that statement just shows the misunderstanding you are having.
I elaborated this in another post: Class Balance simply wasn't as refined as then, plain and simple, but you cannot judge the principal design behind it when the methods employed were due to the time it was build simply not as good.

It's not like it stops suddenly being TBC because a Holy Pally could suddenly pull better numbers, it stops being when you can replace a Holy Pally with any other Healer because they bring nothing unique.

That's the point, it's not about celebrating that Holy Pallies are just a glorified 3rd Blessing, it's about the fact that they bring something unique to the table that isn't just "they perform better than every other healer".
Because that's what dictates the value of a class in Wotlk and going forward: What Utility (Blink, Ice block, etc..) they have and what numbers they pull, anything else got pruned.

And if neither your numbers or your utility are deemed good enough, well then it's time to reroll.

Arena dominated by RMP or Lock/Druid (again) is not balance.

First off, not at one point was i even talking about PvP, let alone 3v3 Arena specifically.
Second, Wotlk isn't exactly the balance haven either.
Third, and that's just an anecdote, Rob Pardo (former Highranking Blizzard dev) literally said in 2009 that Arena was (in his view) the greatest mistake they've added to WoW, citing balance issues in particular.

[Northern Goblin]

To be fair that's a very intentional design decision that not all classes can do everything. They moved away from it in Wrath yes but it's not universally agreed that was a good thing. Dungeon gameplay got a lot worse in Wrath I feel.

But then they design fights like Mu'ru where none aoe classes are absolutely garbage, dungeons are paladin tank aoefest affairs and anyone with a lack of AoE feels frustrating to play.

Conversely drinking as a Prot Paladin tank every few pulls and having zero control over your in combat situation with regards to mitigation and cooldowns is frustrating.

Fixing these things isn't homogenisation, you can still have variants (especially aoe, mind sear is not seed, nor is it arcane explosion or barrage) it's giving players the toolkit to handle the various scenarios that the game has to throw at them, rather than sitting there and not enjoying themselves.

Again, the game should be fun first and foremost, otherwise what's the point. People spending encounters regretting their choices and investment is anything but fun.

Dungeon gameplay got worse in wrath because finally every tank could do what Paladins were already doing in TBC the first time around. Pull it all and aoe wasnt a new gameplay to Wrath, it just became more popular when everyone was able to replicate it.

Also itemisation was better, class toolkits were better and there was less artificial roadblocks between players and reaching their goals.

[Celarent]

I think that statement just shows the misunderstanding you are having.
I elaborated this in another post: Class Balance simply wasn't as refined as then, plain and simple, but you cannot judge the principal design behind it when the methods employed were due to the time it was build simply not as good.

Of course we can judge it; we're playing it again! Classic isn't just about another turn on the merry-go-round. It's provided us as close a facsimile as possible to the original game, unclouded by nostalgia and the early internet on one hand, but stress-tested by meta awareness on the other.

[Nitros14]

It's provided us as close a facsimile as possible to the original game

Except when we did first patch content with final tier talents and class changes and itemization changes that made the experience almost nothing like the original.

[Celarent]

Except

"as possible"

Edit: Also, patch-by-patch changes don't impact underlying design of the expansion by much.

[Th3Scourge]

Eh, the real World of Warcraft is retail though. Classic is just a museums piece that is only good because of said nostalgia. It's still more real than shitty private servers though, I will give you that.

Eh, the real World of Warcraft is whatever official servers Blizzard maintains

[Nitros14]

"as possible"

Edit: Also, patch-by-patch changes don't impact underlying design of the expansion by much.

You think it's beyond the realm of possibility to just release each patch in sequence? Everquest did it.

[DeltrusDisc]

Nothing in Sunwell is in a nerfed state, it has the hotfixes that came in within a week of each boss' release but that's bug fixing, not balancing.

The Mu'ru and KJ nerfs are not in, nor are the Wrath prepatch nerfs.

Isn't player power higher than what it would have been at, in the retail version, at this stage?

[deenman]

I think you are conflicting a missing toolkit with design decisions.

Neither Druid nor Warrior were supposed to be AoE tanks, plain and simple, you were supposed to CC in dungeons.
That modern day players interact very differentely with this is another debate.

Pallies were the designated Trash Tanks and Feral / Warr takes Bosses, both are useful in their own day.
Same reason why many classes are missing AoE, the game wasn't designed around everyone AoE'ing.

You disliking that doesn't mean it's imbalanced, it's just a different design.

thats cute and all,but at the end of the day the design decisions were shit,wile leveling you never wanted to see any tank besides warriors because they had the best dps doing half the groups damage with revenge,perfect mitigation with shield block,you didnt want a druid that did no damage and died 10 times easier

dps wise you wanted frost mages to melt the aoe,no1 cared that some specs did mad deeeps vs single target like ferals but were beneath a holy priest in aoe

[Northern Goblin]

Isn't player power higher than what it would have been at, in the retail version, at this stage?

Only in the fact that more people had black temple on farm for months and player quality is higher.

From Blizzard's side, we've not got access to anything we shouldn't have at this point.

[Kralljin]

Of course we can judge it; we're playing it again! Classic isn't just about another turn on the merry-go-round. It's provided us as close a facsimile as possible to the original game, unclouded by nostalgia and the early internet on one hand, but stress-tested by meta awareness on the other.

I disagree, because Blizzard often times kicked balance concerns down the road, especially during the last patch and that has to be taken into account when discussing the design that has been applied.

You basically take the final patch as the holy grail of balance, when it frankly wasn't.
The design intent behind Classic balance wasn't that Warriors do 30% more damage than anyone else, it was because Blizzard overbuffed them.
Then they nerfed them moving into TBC, because it's more efficient than nerfing them, figuring out whether that was enough and then rebalancing yet again anyway when the next expansion comes out.

thats cute and all,but at the end of the day the design decisions were shit,wile leveling you never wanted to see any tank besides warriors because they had the best dps doing half the groups damage with revenge,perfect mitigation with shield block,you didnt want a druid that did no damage and died 10 times easier

I'm just so confused by this statement.

You mention that Warriors were the best tanks...so we're now suddenly discussing the Classic meta?
Because they're not the best tanks in TBC, not by a long shot.
Then you talk about how "they had the best dps doing half the groups damage with revenge", Revenge is an utterly terrible skill in Classic and TBC, it's solely carried by it being extremely threat efficient for its cost (Revenge literally does not scale with your gear, neither damage nor threat in Classic / TBC).
Then you go on how they had perfect mitigation thanks to Shield Block...which you rarely used in Classic because Fury Prot (Dual Wield) was the Meta.

What Meta are you talking about?

dps wise you wanted frost mages to melt the aoe,no1 cared that some specs did mad deeeps vs single target like ferals but were beneath a holy priest in aoe

Okay, what fucking Meta are you talking about.
First, If you wanted to AoE and used Blizzard, then it was used for slowing mobs, Arcane Explosion is the better AoE damage wise in both Classic and TBC.

Second, people do fucking care, BM are utterly terrible in terms of AoE but carry the day in Single Target in TBC, yet somehow they still have a solid shot at getting a slot.

[deenman]

I disagree, because Blizzard often times kicked balance concerns down the road, especially during the last patch and that has to be taken into account when discussing the design that has been applied.

You basically take the final patch as the holy grail of balance, when it frankly wasn't.
The design intent behind Classic balance wasn't that Warriors do 30% more damage than anyone else, it was because Blizzard overbuffed them.
Then they nerfed them moving into TBC, because it's more efficient than nerfing them, figuring out whether that was enough and then rebalancing yet again anyway when the next expansion comes out.

I'm just so confused by this statement.

You mention that Warriors were the best tanks...so we're now suddenly discussing the Classic meta?
Because they're not the best tanks in TBC, not by a long shot.
Then you talk about how "they had the best dps doing half the groups damage with revenge", Revenge is an utterly terrible skill in Classic and TBC, it's solely carried by it being extremely threat efficient for its cost (Revenge literally does not scale with your gear, neither damage nor threat in Classic / TBC).
Then you go on how they had perfect mitigation thanks to Shield Block...which you rarely used in Classic because Fury Prot (Dual Wield) was the Meta.

What Meta are you talking about?

Okay, what fucking Meta are you talking about.
First, If you wanted to AoE and used Blizzard, then it was used for slowing mobs, Arcane Explosion is the better AoE damage wise in both Classic and TBC.

Second, people do fucking care, BM are utterly terrible in terms of AoE but carry the day in Single Target in TBC, yet somehow they still have a solid shot at getting a slot.

talking about wrath mostly wile lvling,warrior is leagues above everyone,not at endgame ofc

and arcane explosion is very shit compared to blizzard,its limited by global cd,blizzard ticks faster and has a much higher dmg lower levels

[Kralljin]

talking about wrath mostly wile lvling,warrior is leagues above everyone,not at endgame ofc

Okay...but why?

I'm pointing out that it's important to grasp that TBC balance is differently designed Wrath's, then you say

thats cute and all,but at the end of the day the design decisions were shit

Which kinda implies that you heavily disagree with me and then list a bunch of things why Wrath is imbalanced.
Lowlevel no less, which is something Blizzard has clearly not given any fucks about in Wrath anymore.

But then they design fights like Mu'ru where none aoe classes are absolutely garbage

You still need single target dps to kill M'uru and the Sentinel, Single target dps still has value on this fight.
Thing is that those classe still has value, SP is still insane because it supports Warlocks, enables Mages to actually compete with Locks and gives healer some Mana, same goes for lots of other classes.

Going "you can't AoE on this fight, you're useless" is extremely narrow minded.

And it's not like Wrath encounter design can take the highground here, if we get Pre nerf Yogg+0, then the first kills will have a amount of warlocks you can only dream on M'uru.
Let us not pretend that Class stacking stops being a thing post TBC, especially as the difficulty of encounters increases.
You're completely fine with 2 Mages + 2 Warlocks on M'uru, meanwhile i'm going to take a wild guess and say the world first on Yogg+0 will have more than 4 Locks.

Fixing these things isn't homogenisation, you can still have variants (especially aoe, mind sear is not seed, nor is it arcane explosion or barrage) it's giving players the toolkit to handle the various scenarios that the game has to throw at them, rather than sitting there and not enjoying themselves.

There is a good reason why AoE is absent from most TBC encounters: because most classes cannot AoE, so it's not like this wasn't taken into account during the encounter design.
You were supposed to hard CC most trash, not AoE it down (and pre nerf TK trash was a friendly reminder on that), of course with better understanding you can brute force most of this.
Just like people were able to kill Rag before a Submerge phase, wasn't intended either but tuning wasn't exactly tight back then.

While one can have a discussion whether AoE itself is that crucial that every class should be able to do it, there is no question that the mindset of "giving players the tools to enjoy themselves" is the mindset that caused this homogenization.
"Players don't enjoy not having a defensive CD, let's give them one!" (and no, that wasn't just tanks)
"Players don't enjoy not having a mobility tool, let's give them one!"
And so forth.

Whether you like it or not, Wrath was really a point where the powercreep of classes became extremely noticeable and that is, among other things, caused by the fact that many classes had now access to certain type of spells they previously did not have.
And i think that the fact that certain classes being unable to do certain things reinforced interdependency among a player group, which made classes more unique.

That's just the flipside of it, some classes / specs in Wrath (at least as far as PvE was concerned) frankly became "Class / Spec X but worse / better".

[Jazzhands]

You do realize there's more raiders logging on warcraftlogs for TBC than on retail? To be fair retail is very old at this point and they only log mythic (not heroic) so they filter out a lot, but in terms of a formal raiding scene TBC has the lion's share at the moment by a large margin.

Warcraftlogs has logs for every difficulty, including LFR.