The hate towards some of the devs

[Diaphin]

I would say that's a deeply biased take on what I said, to the point of being a strawman version. And on that score, the warning stands, so let's drop the topic.

Not wanting to divulge further on this specific topic, but how is my take biased or even a strawman on principle? Lets argue we have a discussion about american game developers as a broad topic, which is fairly neutral, its just a group of people who can be mentioned or not in a discussion and then you suddenly have a hugh group of people who absolutely hate and dehumanize american game developers, where is the sense of just banning the mention of american game developers from the forum instead of just banning the people who spread hatred and dehumanize a group of people for being american game developers. How does this not lead to the assumption that a moderator or admins who set up such a rule as a reaction is at best sympathetic and at worst alligned with the people who have a really irrational hatred for american game developers, without being open about it. After all, the hypothetical full on ban on the topic actively punishes people who just want to talk appreciative or neutrally about a topic that involves american game developers and actually ends up protecting those who hate them, as it reduces opportunities for them making statements that could get them banned or alternatively the hypothetical sympathetic moderators and admins who would reveal their own bigotry against american game devs if they would refuse to consider hatred against them as a group a banworthy offense.

I mean, sorry, the way just the mention of a specific group of people is banned, the best faith assumption is that the mods are fully aware of the bigoted community they fostered on this forum and just don't want to have to ban a lot of toxic gamer dudes because it could harm the sides traffic, so you end up erasing the notion of a specific group of people existing here instead, to protect your bottom line.

[Aucald]

Not wanting to divulge further on this specific topic, but how is my take biased or even a strawman on principle? Lets argue we have a discussion about american game developers as a broad topic, which is fairly neutral, its just a group of people who can be mentioned or not in a discussion and then you suddenly have a hugh group of people who absolutely hate and dehumanize american game developers, where is the sense of just banning the mention of american game developers from the forum instead of just banning the people who spread hatred and dehumanize a group of people for being american game developers. How does this not lead to the assumption that a moderator or admins who set up such a rule as a reaction is at best sympathetic and at worst alligned with the people who have a really irrational hatred for american game developers, without being open about it. After all, the hypothetical full on ban on the topic actively punishes people who just want to talk appreciative or neutrally about a topic that involves american game developers and actually ends up protecting those who hate them, as it reduces opportunities for them making statements that could get them banned.

Because you assume that "both sides" in this case are under equal pressure, but that's not the case. I'm more than happy to go over the finer points of the forum rules and guidelines as concerns forbidden topics in DM's or elsewhere, but this conversation is also not germane to this thread and is equally distracting to the topic at hand. Feel free to DM me if you have further questions or require more information.

[s0ul]

Not wanting to divulge further on this specific topic, but how is my take biased or even a strawman on principle? Lets argue we have a discussion about american game developers as a broad topic, which is fairly neutral, its just a group of people who can be mentioned or not in a discussion and then you suddenly have a hugh group of people who absolutely hate and dehumanize american game developers, where is the sense of just banning the mention of american game developers from the forum instead of just banning the people who spread hatred and dehumanize a group of people for being american game developers. How does this not lead to the assumption that a moderator or admins who set up such a rule as a reaction is at best sympathetic and at worst alligned with the people who have a really irrational hatred for american game developers, without being open about it. After all, the hypothetical full on ban on the topic actively punishes people who just want to talk appreciative or neutrally about a topic that involves american game developers and actually ends up protecting those who hate them, as it reduces opportunities for them making statements that could get them banned or alternatively the hypothetical sympathetic moderators and admins who would reveal their own bigotry against american game devs if they would refuse to consider hatred against them as a group a banworthy offense.

I mean, sorry, the way just the mention of a specific group of people is banned, the best faith assumption is that the mods are fully aware of the bigoted community they fostered on this forum and just don't want to have to ban a lot of toxic gamer dudes because it could harm the sides traffic, so you end up erasing the notion of a specific group of people existing here instead, to protect your bottom line.

What an absurd thing. It's obvious you can't look at this without your bias/ hatred for the playerbase (just like current WoW Devs).

FFXIV is the most popular MMORPG on the market right now. Their Devs are highly respected amongst all communities--do you know why? They listen to their players and communicate. They also don't go on Twitter and bash their playerbase claiming they know best for their game. Square Enix has said over and over it is the players that make the game what it is. Blizzard Devs on the other hand have outright shunned feedback because they believe it's a personal attack on their profession. How dare a player tell them what they did wrong?

You have that same mentality.

[A Chozo]

People are a bunch of hypocrites, incessantly shitting on ghostcrawler, ion or whatever. You don't see a single complaint about John Hight - no, they hate whoever face appears more.

[Raidoser]

People are a bunch of hypocrites, incessantly shitting on ghostcrawler, ion or whatever. You don't see a single complaint about John Hight - no, they hate whoever face appears more.

Yes and No, people had a hard time with Ghostcrawler because he got a strong personality and say what he thinks clearly which can lead to some friction socially.
People hate Ion because he lied a lot in his interviews, you rarely love or trust someone who does that.

Also Danuser rarely write blue posts or do interviews and people don't like him.

[A Chozo]

Yes and No, people had a hard time with Ghostcrawler because he got a strong personality and say what he thinks clearly which can lead to some friction socially.
People hate Ion because he lied a lot in his interviews, you rarely love or trust someone who does that.

Also Danuser rarely write blue posts or do interviews and people don't like him.

You mentioned three devs and not a single peep about John Hight, who's running this shitshow.

Impressive!

[rrayy]

Some DEV´s are great, have vision and can translate this into the game.

Some DEV´s are very professional and try their best. Even though, this isn´t enough for a company like Blizzard

Some DEV´s are incompetent and after WoD, BFA and SHL, should be long gone. Hell, in any multimillion company like Blizzard, 2 consecutive failures, heads should roll.

ALl 3 expansions were profitable. They were not failures. You not liking them does not mean they were failures, does not mean devs were incompetent, and certainly does not mean devs should be fired. This post is exactly the type of thing that the OP is talking about.

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How do you even know they do their best…..
Some of them are more focused on getting their political agenda in the game then actually make a good game and that is fact.

And how do you know that? Declaring something fact because you say so doesn't make it so.

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And some devs are awesome, talented and passionate, and therefore have left the company a couple of expansions ago.

ALL devs are talented and passionate. They do not cease being that simply because they don't cater the game solely to you.

[Raven]

Nothing new, people always has and always will need someone to blame, and this is not just a gaming issue.

[Drusin]

I was skipping the some of my favourite streamers during the night and I just couldn't believe some of the comments towards the devs, they are trying there best to get the game right, then theres the personal attacks towards some of the devs it's not on they don't deserve these kind of comments,

Standard internet stuff.

they need to grow up, one day the Internet will change for the better and find these keyboard warriors and take action

Sounds like a threat of violence to me, that would seem to be the exact opposite thing someone bitching about how people talk to devs would suggest so I'm clearly wrong, no one is that much a hypocrite so quickly.

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Nothing new, people always has and always will need someone to blame, and this is not just a gaming issue.

Also true, great example, look at how people talk about government officials lol (POTUS)

[Nymrohd]

Ofc there are awful people in the community who direct hate to the devs. However people who dislike specific aspects of the game and express their distaste with whatever dev is in charge with that aspect and wish they'd be employed elsewhere are not "hating".

Then there is the fact that some of the devs Blizzard is using to face the community have a Charisma penalty. Blizzard has had charismatic people present their games before so the standard is fairly high. Metzen could hype up the room. Hearthstone had Brode and still has charismatic people doing the presentations. Even Ghostcrawler had more charisma than Ion and Danuser.

And finally some people just rub you the wrong way and you are allowed to dislike them. I dislike Danuser. I find him very smarmy which is among the worst traits for any person who is supposed to communicate with the community. I'm still not going to wish him harm but I'd be happy if he wasn't around a game I've invested a decent chunk of my life in.

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you mean the ones included in the scandal?

To be fair, someone can be a disgusting creep or even much much worse than that and still be talented and passionate.

[shise]

People are a bunch of hypocrites, incessantly shitting on ghostcrawler, ion or whatever. You don't see a single complaint about John Hight - no, they hate whoever face appears more.

Well, Ghostcrawler promised me a pony.

But 10 years later everything has gone from fun moaning to actual threads :S

[Nymrohd]

ALL devs are talented and passionate.

That is a tall claim to make. Would you make it for any other industry or does it have to do with your romanticised version of Blizzard or even the gaming industry?

[rrayy]

That is a tall claim to make. Would you make it for any other industry or does it have to do with your romanticised version of Blizzard or even the gaming industry?

It's not a tall claim to make. Your entire claim that they are not is based solely on the fact you do not like the game. Game designers are absolutely passionate. You liking the game is not a prerequisite for that to be.

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Critizizing developers for being incompetent is no "hate". But simply a fact when it is about WoW current dev team. They neither know what their customers want nor do they really care.

Agagn, based solely on the fact you do not like the game they put out. How about those that like the game? What if they want what the game currently is? It would seem they do care about players in that case. Basically what you are saying is they don't care about what *YOU" want, not he player base as a whole.

Also, you not liking the game does not = the deves are incompetent. They are plenty competent since the game functions very well especially as massive as it is.

[kenn9530]

Critizizing developers for being incompetent is no "hate". But simply a fact when it is about WoW current dev team. They neither know what their customers want nor do they really care.

The customer is not always right, plus its not up to the devs in what direction a game actually goes, they can put in thier 2 cents but its not really up to them in most companies, you cant claim a dev is incompetent when all they are doing is thier job and if they were not able to do the job they would be fired, you fail to understand the real meaning of incompetent.

Every expansion WoW has released has been a large success and ppl continue to play it, you not liking something has nothing to do with devs being good/bad at the job they are doing.

Devs are just doing what they are told, they can attempt to make changes but its up to the company itself to allow that to happen.

[kenn9530]

1.) "You think you know what you want but you dont" - the players know exactly what they want, the only problem is that blizzard is no crowd sourced development team but a dictatorship, and even a tyranny when we talk about all the players blizzard does not adress. Players either accept what the devs serve them or they leave. There is no philosophical debate between devs and players which is about the focus or the general direction. Feedback is only about giving the developers a way to improve their ideas.
2.) At Blizzard, it is entirely based on the decisions of the game designers what the game develops to, collaboratively, yet, with the game directors being the ones which set the development focus and direction. In the case of WoW the guy that is responsible for allmost all direction game design decisions is Ion Hazzikostas. Senior devs care about implementing what the game director is telling them.

It has already been proven time and time again that the players dont know what they want, as soon as they get what they think they want they still complain they are not getting what they want. The players dont really know what they want, they always want more and thats not possible most of the time.

Also what players want and what is actually good for the game are 2 different things, you cant have everything in a game some things have to be sacrificed.

The company already knows all its options for the game and they will do what they feel is right for the game, they are not going to just do things a small amount of players want just because, if you cant accept that dont play the game

Dont blame the devs and thier team leaders for actuallly doing the job they are supposed to be doing.

[korijenkins]

The only dev that gets deserved hate is Danuser. All the others are merely being puppeteered by dumb fuck managers.

[Bakis]

Devs part of what makes a shitty game gets flak from internet peeps.
Oh no..

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No, that is not true. The game director is the main antagonist in WoWs development.

More like the ones over their head making the business calls ie. monetization, putting more resources in a diablo mobile game than diablo, call of duty rushed flops, etc etc.
Short term gain (in some cases, no gain at all in others) that water out their portfolio.

The brain drain started long before the current work place environment issues got public.
There is simply too little room for dedicated game development directions not chained to the marketing departments squad of übermench and the stock tunnel vision board.

[kenn9530]

You sound like J. Allen Brack. He was as wrong as you are.



That would probably stop if blizzard simply listened to what the players want instead of ignoring it or even trolling them with even worse changes. The developers have yet to learn to be less arrogant and believe only they can be the great leaders. You know, even germany learned that a strong leader did not work. Time for blizzard to adapt to that, even if they love China.



You know, there is a political system called "democracy", where majorities decide. Something blizzard could do as well. You know, polls, asking their customers what they want. Could really work well. Something Xi Ji Ping and Mike Ybarra should check out.



You have too much faith in a company which just had its biggest scadals which evolved from way too powerful "designer rockstars" (see afrasiabi who was infact untouchable for years and his perverts playground "cosby room") and in a company which loses million of players for a MMORPG after every single expac release because once again the devs disppointed their overly loyal customers. And no, that loyality does not come from blizzard ability to design a great game, but simply from hope that the devs will learn to create a fun game again one day. While i doubt they will ever do that.

Its just a simple fact players themselves dont actually know what they want and the ones who moan are never happy regardless of what is implemented in a game.

Players are not the ones making the game and the devs cant give the players what they want because its not feasable, because the players want everything, you give them a better system and something else will suffer and they will moan about that instead, if you cant accept the game the devs make dont play the game, its ok to listen to players and act on reasonable things but you cant have everything.

WoW is an old game so its going to lose the players who dont have time for it anymore or have other priorities, the game would really be better of ending so new games to take its place, if you are moaning about current WoW you will always be dissapointed in the game regardless of what they do. No game can hold its playerbase forever. The core gameplay in WoW has not changed since it launched so if its not fun nothing will change that.

[Raidoser]

You mentioned three devs and not a single peep about John Hight, who's running this shitshow.

Impressive!

Personally when i'm frustrated about wow it's the whole group i speak of because a company should share the glory and the shame so it include John High, then there is nothing more to say about him because contrary to a lot of younger dev at Blizzard he is discreet.

But clearly you seem to just be venting your anger making assumption that everyone is "a bunch of hypocrites" when they complain about Ion who deserved all the flak he can get for lying multiple time in interviews, i've seen the interviews of John High and not once did he lie or act condescending when he doesn't like a question (like ion with casual content).

[A Chozo]

contrary to a lot of younger dev at Blizzard he is discreet.

Oh praise be, he's discreet, we can't blame him for anything then.