Blood Elves in Horde Makes No Sense

[Kent088]

Since TBC is current content again, we can discuss this with relevance.

The main justification in TBC is built on three principles:

1. Garithos

2. Fel usage

3. Night Elf rivalry

Garithos

Garithos was used as this great betrayal, to spur the Blood Elves to leave the Alliance. Okay fine, leave, maybe? This was a rogue general the Alliance disowned in a time where there wasn't much they could do to reign him in. This was also a general that was fighting an undead apocalypse and some of the blood elves he attacked WERE NOT INNOCENT. At most, really, this should have been justification for re-negotiation of certain aspects of the Alliance.

Garithos was also FROM LORDAERON AND ALLIED WITH UNDEAD. Why in the hell do proud, xenophobic, anti-undead Blood Elves not see that on top of the fact that the Forsaken are a corrupt and vulgar race (in their traditional views), that these are the people of Garithos. Not Stormwind.

If anything, this is a sign for Blood Elves to rejoin the Alliance, now that the fiercely anti-belf population is gone. Not go side with them and blame people thousands of miles south.

Fel Magic

Both factions hate Fel. But the Horde is especially suspicious give Orc history. It shouldn't need elaboration that the orcs are incredibly weary of the Cleft of Shadow already, and are forced to accept them due to the political reality. Allowing in Blood Elves bolsters their sympathies, when the Horde is doing everything in its power to limit fel magic.

Night Elf Rivalry

This one might make sense, especially with the Fel Magic. But really it is not justification to join the Horde, its really just one point against them joining the Alliance. In all honesty though, the Nelves are allied with the Arcane using races of Azeroth. I don't see why they can't see the Belves joining as a good thing; Keep these rivals in check with peoples who can actually engage with them on an incredibly intimate level and therefore monitor their activity. And obviously the Vanilla Alliance showed the Nelves were less suspicious of the Arcane to some degree than implied. Plus, they're seemingly fine with high elves, who's non-fel disagreements and histories with Night Elves are near exactly the same.

[Kayb]

With all that’s gone down since TBC, the Blood Elves are quite firmly tied to the Horde now. Especially after MoP

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I suppose OP has not played WoW since TBC. Shame.

[The Stormbringer]

You seem to have forgotten 4.) Ties with the Forsaken (initially via Sylvanas). The Forsaken were the only ones to offer aid in a time when the Blood Elves desperately needed it, and Sylvanas opened a window to a much larger support network in the form of the Horde. Also, they aren't "the people of Garithos", since Sylvanas killed all of them. And the Horde weren't that suspicious of the Fel, they had warlocks before the Blood Elves showed up, they just kept them under close watch.

Also yeah, what everyone else is saying. It's been like 15 years mate, you're a bit late to the draw here.

[BB8]

I thought their Sunwell was fading and they needed a new resource which got them addicted?

Maybe I missed the real reason.

Outside Lore... Blizzard wanted a 'pretty' race for the horde which grew to the main race in numbers

[Varodoc]

Since TBC is current content again, we can discuss this with relevance.

The main justification in TBC is built on three principles:

1. Garithos

Who was a rightful citizen of Lordaeron.

Remind me, again, what do the Forsaken claim to be?

Oh but that's right, the Forsaken want to have the cake and eat it too. They're the rightful citizens but they're not going to take responsibility for anyone and anything. I guess that's why the orcs haven't blamed them for setting up the internment camps back when they were living humans.

As you can clearly see OP, on the contrary, I would surprisingly argue that the Blood elves do fit in the Horde. They are hypocritical and apply double-standards and are clearly shady and thuggish in nature, just like the rest of the herd.

[Wonderment2]

The previous Allaince betrayed them and the Forsaken aided them in rebuilding Quel'thalas.

During TBC the Alliance also spied on the BE and established military bases in their territory.

Not to mention the Allaince has been working with and taking in High Elf rebels

- - - Updated - - -

Who was a rightful citizen of Lordaeron.

Remind me, again, what do the Forsaken claim to be?

Oh but that's right, the Forsaken want to have the cake and eat it too. They're the rightful citizens but they're not going to take responsibility for anyone and anything. I guess that's why the orcs haven't blamed them for setting up the internment camps back when they were living humans.

As you can clearly see OP, on the contrary, I would surprisingly argue that the Blood elves do fit in the Horde. They are hypocritical and apply double-standards and are clearly shady and thuggish in nature, just like the rest of the herd.

The Forsaken also killed Garithos. So if it helps the Forsaken took care of thier own. Also all the human rulers who helped set up the camps are dead or on the Allainces side. So I think it's pretty reasonable the Orcs don't blame the average Forsaken who were, for the most part, regular people.

[McNeil]

Some of the OG WoW devs like Mark Kern did say that they needed to give the Horde blood elves because it was difficult for male gamers to get their GF's to play WoW, they wouldn't find any of the Horde races attractive enough to play.

[Kallisto]

During TBC the Alliance also spied on the BE and established military bases in their territory.

It wasn't just spying, actual sabotage of their only defence against the scourge. If they had been able to sabotage the second sanctum that they were planning, the blood elves would have been overrun and wiped out. At the same time sending a diplomat to pretend to have discussions for blood elves to rejoin the alliance.

[Varodoc]

The previous Allaince betrayed them and the Forsaken aided them in rebuilding Quel'thalas.

The Alliance didn't betray anyone, Quel'Thalas abandoned the Alliance shortly after the Second War was over. And I don't recall the Forsaken helping the Blood elves in any way in rebuilding Quel'Thalas. Half of Silvermoon was retaken and rebuilt by their Magisters. What I do seem to recall is Sylvanas very shamelessly blackmailing the Blood elves, right after TBC mind you, to send their few remaining troops to Northrend against the Lich King, completely ignoring Lor'themar's pleas to keep the (few remaining) troops left home.

During TBC the Alliance also spied on the BE and established military bases in their territory.

Ghostlands was Scourge territory at the time.

The Blood elves are such a pathetic and weak people that they still haven't reclaimed the Ghostlands shoreline in BfA, as evidenced from the Windrunner Sisters having to carve a path through a horde of undead to get to their ancient home on the shoreline.

Not to mention the Allaince has been working with and taking in High Elf rebels

The Blood elves were going to rejoin the Alliance regardless of this fact, if it wasn't for B̶l̶i̶z̶z̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶i̶z̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶s̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶s̶e̶c̶o̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶b̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶H̶o̶r̶d̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶A̶l̶l̶i̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ Jaina Proudmoore purging the Sunreavers.

And again in BfA Sin'dorei leader Lor'themar Theron was seen conspiring with Horde Rebels and Alliance forces (inclduing Jaina herself) to free Baine Bloodhoof from captivity.

The Forsaken also killed Garithos

Cool, we're waiting for them to admit they raised Arthas and thus it's their fault and their fault alone that the world almost fell to the Scourge.

Also all the human rulers who helped set up the camps are dead or on the Allainces side. So I think it's pretty reasonable the Orcs don't blame the average Forsaken who were, for the most part, regular people.

Calia Menethil Princess of Lordaeron and daughter of King Terenas is in the Horde + the average Lordaeron citizen was paying taxes for the internment camp and possibly working as a guard there.

[Wonderment2]

It wasn't just spying, actual sabotage of their only defence against the scourge. If they had been able to sabotage the second sanctum that they were planning, the blood elves would have been overrun and wiped out. At the same time sending a diplomat to pretend to have discussions for blood elves to rejoin the alliance.

Clearly I didn't read the quest text enough

[Kent088]

1. All lore reasons around the Forsaken or Alliance spies were written AFTER Blizzard decided they should be in the Horde.

2. Spying and Minor Sabotage is not reason to join an enemy that you have fierce disagreements with, its a diplomatic blunder. Does France enter in an agreement with China because the US was caught spying on their leaders? No, it just puts strain on the relationship. Especially if China had just been a part of destruction that took place in France.

3. The Forsaken were allowed to help because the Belves were already written to be less cautious and sympathetic, which they had zero reason to be. Even so, the Blood Elves were helped because it served Sylvanas only; they knew there was no Horde going to help them if they were invaded, no Sylvanas would have used that as justification to expand into their lands.

[Wonderment2]

1.The Alliance didn't betray anyone, Quel'Thalas abandoned the Alliance shortly after the Second War was over. And I don't recall the Forsaken helping the Blood elves in any way in rebuilding Quel'Thalas. Half of Silvermoon was retaken and rebuilt by their Magisters. What I do seem to recall is Sylvanas very shamelessly blackmailing the Blood elves, right after TBC mind you, to send their few remaining troops to Northrend against the Lich King, completely ignoring Lor'themar's pleas to keep the (few remaining) troops left home.



2. Ghostlands was Scourge territory at the time.



3. The Blood elves were going to rejoin the Alliance regardless of this fact, if it wasn't for B̶l̶i̶z̶z̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶i̶z̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶s̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶s̶e̶c̶o̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶b̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶H̶o̶r̶d̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶A̶l̶l̶i̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ Jaina Proudmoore purging the Sunreavers.



4.. Cool, we're waiting for them to admit they raised Arthas and thus it's their fault and their fault alone that the world almost fell to the Scourge.



5.. Calia Menethil Princess of Lordaeron is in the Horde + the average Lordaeron citizen was paying taxes for the internment camp and possibly working as a guard there.

1. Reason I said Quel'thalas and not Silvermoon. But yes the Forsaken are aiding them reclaim their old land. What was left of the Old Allaince in Lorderon imprisoned and planned to execute the Blood Elves.

2. If Ghostlands is scourge territory then Lorderon is Forsaken and the Allaince have no claim to it.

3. Still canon that happened. And doesn't counter the point they were working with High Elf rebels.

4. The Forsaken raised Arthas? What. His dad did and the royal court did. The Forsaken are the regular people of Lorderon.

5. So the Allaince was made of Kingdoms were regular people don't get to vote. Also a tiny fraction might have been prison guards. Sins of the father don't pass to the son. Regular Forsaken aren't responsible for the camps.

[Kent088]

Some of the OG WoW devs like Mark Kern did say that they needed to give the Horde blood elves because it was difficult for male gamers to get their GF's to play WoW, they wouldn't find any of the Horde races attractive enough to play.

Then they should've increased Horde sexual dimorphism, similar to what they did with female trolls

[Varodoc]

1. All lore reasons around the Forsaken or Alliance spies were written AFTER Blizzard decided they should be in the Horde.

2. Spying and Minor Sabotage is not reason to join an enemy that you have fierce disagreements with, its a diplomatic blunder. Does France enter in an agreement with China because the US was caught spying on their leaders? No, it just puts strain on the relationship. Especially if China had just been a part of destruction that took place in France.

3. The Forsaken were allowed to help because the Belves were already written to be less cautious and sympathetic, which they had zero reason to be. Even so, the Blood Elves were helped because it served Sylvanas only; they knew there was no Horde going to help them if they were invaded, no Sylvanas would have used that as justification to expand into their lands.

What is hilarious about this whole situation is that Forsaken and Blood elves joined the Horde only and exclusively because the Alliance turned them down.

Sylvanas and the Forsaken applied to join the Alliance before even thinking of joining a throng of barbarians across the ocean (who caused the death of Sylvanas' little brother btw), but because they are shambling abominations they were (rightfully) rejected from the Alliance. If Sylvanas and the Forsaken were accepted into the Alliance, then it is likely that the Blood elves would have been convinced to rejoin the Alliance by Sylvanas.

So really, these people didn't join the Horde because they believe it was better for their countries or anything like that (unlike the Void elves, who are actually idealistic people and didn't join the Alliance simply out of petty convenience). They joined the Horde simply because they were already turned down by the stronger faction.

It's kind of hilarious how the Horde only gets new allies after the Alliance already turned them down. It happened with the Forsaken in Vanilla, BEs in TBC, Goblin in Cataclysm, and Nightborne in Legion.

[Mehrunes]

Garithos

Garithos was used as this great betrayal, to spur the Blood Elves to leave the Alliance. Okay fine, leave, maybe? This was a rogue general the Alliance disowned in a time where there wasn't much they could do to reign him in. This was also a general that was fighting an undead apocalypse and some of the blood elves he attacked WERE NOT INNOCENT. At most, really, this should have been justification for re-negotiation of certain aspects of the Alliance.

The closest the Alliance came to disowning Garithos was in the recent book written by Shaw (in-universe) where he talked smack about him. Which is what? A decade after the events concerning Garithos in-lore? At the time of the events in question Garithos got support of all Alliance nations.

Garithos was also FROM LORDAERON AND ALLIED WITH UNDEAD. Why in the hell do proud, xenophobic, anti-undead Blood Elves not see that on top of the fact that the Forsaken are a corrupt and vulgar race (in their traditional views), that these are the people of Garithos. Not Stormwind.

Do give a source for those "traditional views". Also, Garithos did what he did only after Lordaeron imploded thanks to Arthas and its survivors formed various splinter groups. Garithos sharing Lordaeronian origin with the Forsaken doesn't reflect on the Forsaken in any way, shape or form. Especially since their brief alliance afterwards happened only after the incident with the Blood Elves. Especially-ier since the Forsaken are the ones that killed Garithos.

Fel Magic

Both factions hate Fel. But the Horde is especially suspicious give Orc history. It shouldn't need elaboration that the orcs are incredibly weary of the Cleft of Shadow already, and are forced to accept them due to the political reality. Allowing in Blood Elves bolsters their sympathies, when the Horde is doing everything in its power to limit fel magic.

Yeah, this "argument" is outdated by like 15 years, if not more. It's been confirmed by devs eons ago that the Fel was only used to rebuild Silvermoon by Rommath and that even most Blood Elves didn't know about what he did. There's absolutely zero reason for Orcs to have known about it. And even if they did, given the specific purpose of Rommath's magic and the desperate circumstances pertaining to it, Orcs would most likely have been understanding.

Night Elf Rivalry

This one might make sense, especially with the Fel Magic. But really it is not justification to join the Horde, its really just one point against them joining the Alliance. In all honesty though, the Nelves are allied with the Arcane using races of Azeroth. I don't see why they can't see the Belves joining as a good thing; Keep these rivals in check with peoples who can actually engage with them on an incredibly intimate level and therefore monitor their activity. And obviously the Vanilla Alliance showed the Nelves were less suspicious of the Arcane to some degree than implied. Plus, they're seemingly fine with high elves, who's non-fel disagreements and histories with Night Elves are near exactly the same.

You missed the part where the Sentinel forces outright invaded Quel'Thalas, occupied various areas of it and tried to kill any Blood Elf getting too close to their camps. All the while the Alliance was pretending to engage in diplomatic talks with the Blood Elves.

Who was a rightful citizen of Lordaeron.

Remind me, again, what do the Forsaken claim to be?

Oh but that's right, the Forsaken want to have the cake and eat it too. They're the rightful citizens but they're not going to take responsibility for anyone and anything. I guess that's why the orcs haven't blamed them for setting up the internment camps back when they were living humans.

As you can clearly see OP, on the contrary, I would surprisingly argue that the Blood elves do fit in the Horde. They are hypocritical and apply double-standards and are clearly shady and thuggish in nature, just like the rest of the herd.

Sorry to break your argument (or, more accurately, what you think passes as an argument, but in actuality does not) that you push in thread after thread, but other people understanding such mystical concepts like the linearity of time or how responsibility works does not constitute wanting to have the cake and eat it too.

The actions of Garithos that are relevant in this context are what he did only after the fall of Lordaeron as a nation, with both Forsaken and Garithos' forces being separate splinter factions of it, both raising competing claims to its territory. The Forsaken bear no responsibility for the actions of Garithos that he took when he was no longer a part of the same group as the Forsaken.

[Wonderment2]

What is hilarious about this whole situation is that Forsaken and Blood elves joined the Horde only and exclusively because the Alliance turned them down.

Sylvanas and the Forsaken applied to join the Alliance before even thinking of joining a throng of barbarians across the ocean (who caused the death of Sylvanas' little brother btw), but because they are shambling abominations they were (rightfully) rejected from the Alliance. If Sylvanas and the Forsaken were accepted into the Alliance, then it is likely that the Blood elves would have been convinced to rejoin the Alliance by Sylvanas.

So really, these people didn't join the Horde because they believe it was better for their countries or anything like that (unlike the Void elves, who are actually idealistic people and didn't join the Alliance simply out of petty convenience). They joined the Horde simply because they were already turned down by the stronger faction.

It's kind of hilarious how the Horde only gets new allies after the Alliance already turned them down. It happened with the Forsaken in Vanilla, BEs in TBC, Goblin in Cataclysm, and Nightborne in Legion.

The Horde is literally a collection of outcats and exiles who joined together for common defense and security. So yes lots of thier members are outcasts and exiles....


Also megalul at calling the unwillingly risen Forsaken abominations but not those who willing accepted the void...

[Kent088]

What is hilarious about this whole situation is that Forsaken and Blood elves joined the Horde only and exclusively because the Alliance turned them down.

Sylvanas and the Forsaken applied to join the Alliance before even thinking of joining a throng of barbarians across the ocean (who caused the death of Sylvanas' little brother btw), but because they are shambling abominations they were (rightfully) rejected from the Alliance. If Sylvanas and the Forsaken were accepted into the Alliance, then it is likely that the Blood elves would have been convinced to rejoin the Alliance by Sylvanas.

So really, these people didn't join the Horde because they believe it was better for their countries or anything like that (unlike the Void elves, who are actually idealistic people and didn't join the Alliance simply out of petty convenience). They joined the Horde simply because they were already turned down by the stronger faction.

It's kind of hilarious how the Horde only gets new allies after the Alliance already turned them down. It happened with the Forsaken in Vanilla, BEs in TBC, Goblin in Cataclysm, and Nightborne in Legion.

Out of character justification for the whole mess. Blizz had to write that because everyone knew it made no sense. Goblins made sense to be in the Horde 100%. Why would Dwarves, Gnomes, and Humans decline the Blood Elves? These are their former comrades in arms that withdrew from them, many of both peoples would have fought along side one another.

People act like the Forsaken thing is comparable, and its like, you're comparing living cultures with a perverse and corrupt group of undead of which you have no proof to verify that they are your friends or if they can somehow be pulled back into the Scourge. You just know right now they hate Arthas.

- - - Updated - - -

All the people using yesterdays retcons for why the Belves should be in the Horde are not looking at the point on this timeline from which I'm talking. I don't care what Blizzard said happened then, now. If I did I wouldn't be making this post, but there's Classic/TBC+ discussion out there and TBC is up and running, the server quests are based on old lore.

- - - Updated - - -

o give a source for those "traditional views". Also, Garithos did what he did only after Lordaeron imploded thanks to Arthas and its survivors formed various splinter groups. Garithos sharing Lordaeronian origin with the Forsaken doesn't reflect on the Forsaken in any way, shape or form. Especially since their brief alliance afterwards happened only after the incident with the Blood Elves. Especially-ier since the Forsaken are the ones that killed Garithos.

You are looking at this from the perspective of an all seeing eye. I am looking at this from the perspective of an actual Blood Elf citizen or leader.

[Panquake]

Personally I think that Orcs in the Horde make no sense and should be moved to the Alliance.

[Kent088]

Personally I think that Orcs in the Horde make no sense and should be moved to the Alliance.

Personally I think gnomes should have conquered the entire eastern kingdoms