Buffed Naxxramas Will Backfire, Disaster Ahead!

[Nzx]

I have a lot of time, and I write here from work (though cannot play at work), but I don't have regular time. Week 1 I might have time hour X on day Y, but week 2 I might have time on hour Z on day W. Hence guildraiding is impossible.

So you have all the time in the world to pug raid, you just refuse to actually improve to the point you can engage with the content. This isn't a content problem, it's a you problem.

Are you also offended that you have enough time to head down to the local basketball court and shoot some hoops but you can't commit to an organised team, so the NBA needs to enforce a 5'8 height limit and cement shoes?

[Xalvia]

No. Just no.

[Kurve1776]

I have people in my guild saying that naxx is going to be hard and that it was hard back in the day and I fear for the future if that's considered hard to them lol

[Battlebeard]

Quite a lot of people pick classic over retail. You are wrong and every post you make on here is always the same old tierd stuff. Please man.. stop. Its not up to you who this game is for or how it should be played. I famed the last retail tier and like classic for other reasons. It being easy to the point of it being a joke is not one of them. Also, if your life sucks to the point that you dont know when you can play, maybe sort that shit out before trying to bend the entire design of the game around your schedule. Maybe the game isnt for you?

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You seem to tell everyone who likes this change to go play retail if they want a challenge. Do you think people prefer classic only because its easier?

Classic is the worse game, by far. If people don't play for nostalgia and good memories, WHY would they ever pick Classic over Retail.

Retail is miles ahead in every department, it is the better game, but I still like Classic more cause I have so many fond memories. Just like Diablo 3 is by far better than Diablo 2, in every single way, but people still like D2 cause it was so big and popular back in the day.

Just look at it objectively. D2 had clunky controls, confusing skill systems, slow paced combat, inconvinience all over with potions, runes, scrolls etc, it is WORSE but I get people like it.

Same with Classic. It lacks so many features and conviniences the modern game has. I could prolly list 100 things Retail does better, but I cba, cause I think you get the point from the Diablo example.

J. Allen Brack was 100% correct when he said "you think you do, but you don't", cause he told the truth and basically said "Classic sucked, you don't wanna go back there", and he was right, cause compared to retail, Classic DO suck, BUT what J. Allen Brack miscalculated and forgot, is that Nostalgia is like a drug and people love it. It makes people see past all the crap and still enjoy something.

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How those that make it impossible ?

My guild has 1 nurse, 1 cop and 1 french military police all with irregular work schedules (going from cop being on a 6day/week rotation, to the nurse being called randomly to the army guy being deployed anywhere from French guinea to recently Irak for a few months). Can they raid every single time ? Nope. Can they raid when they have the time for it ? Yes.
And we raid mythic retail every single tier since the guild's creation when Legion launched.
And sure, you won't be able to effectively play at the top 100 world or whatever. But let's not pretend your PUGs are of an higher level than what decent social guilds are achieving. It's just up to you to find a friendly guild that understand your time constraints and there are actually lots of guild of 30+ (I'm 38 myself) who do.

Come on now, I want the community of a guild, but I also want loot. No matter what loot system you run, you will fall behind if you don't attend every raid. If you wanna maximize gearing, you need 100% attendance. I raided only current content and I didn't miss a reset of the latest raid in Classic or TBC (up to SWP) and I don't intend to in WotLK. Rather get loot every week (or a chance at it if RNG is bad) than loot every other week with a guild.

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It's simple, don't buff the trash? Nobody is advocating that they buff trash lol.

People want something that might pose a challenge for a few weeks and not something you fall asleep to instantly. Nobody is asking for it to mimic Ulduar, SSK, TK, Sunwell or whatever. I just don't want something that essentially shits on the legacy of Naxx 40. I'm pretty sure if you could going back and doing Naxx 40 with 25 people would be harder than Naxx in WoTLK (and this isn't me making gross exaggerations to prove a point either).

There is nothing stopping them from adding skips in Classic WoW as well BTW. Didn't they just recently do that in Black Temple? I doubt any person with a sane mind would be opposed to them adding a skip straight to Sapphiron and KT if you have people who have cleared the raids several times. Other than that you have a ~30 minute raid at max at a certain point, because eventually the only good loot from Naxxaramas comes off the last two bosses anyway. Raid skips being added to legacy content is only a good thing to be honest, because the key demographic doesn't have worlds of time either.

The above might seem counter-intuitive to that demographic I'm talking about, but there's still a wide range of players playing Classic for different reasons. Without math or changes, people are making wild speculations that an average clear will take upwards of 100-150% extra time, which is a bit crazy.

Quite literally having an easy Naxx isn't in anyone's best interest. Classic MC being easy is fine because the majority of the time spend was through the leveling process with long attunements, which lead into easy raids. Naxx being easy doesn't hold up because the only thing that will ruffle your feathers is 3D Sartharion, and then what, 5-6 months of waiting for Ulduar? So yeah. It's not so much about it being super challenging as it's trying to make the experience better. Key demographics that Classic are meant for having to pay attention for the first month that it's relevant isn't a bad thing. Challenging for people who live for this kind of shit isn't going to happen, and will never happen (if you want that play retail).

If there's literally zero challenge poised at any point (aside from people who seriously over prepare for old content) why not just play idle games? To each their own but I would rather see a Naxx 10/25 where they might ask you to farm the newly buffed dungeons before hopping straight in with leveling gear (yes, they're also buffing 5 man heroics which a lot of people are forgetting about) which is what Naxx 10/25 were when they first launched over a decade ago.

But why are you playing Classic then if you don't want something that "crap on Naxx 40". Naxx in original WotLK was easy and crapped on Naxx 40. The POINT of Classic is to get everything the way it was, otherwise, what's the point.

It's either #nochanges or absolutely 0 point of even playing. Why would ANYONE EVER want "Classic+", I just don't get it.

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I have people in my guild saying that naxx is going to be hard and that it was hard back in the day and I fear for the future if that's considered hard to them lol

I played all of original WotLK, people completely underestimated it. It was NOT a cakewalk, there were wipes, clearing all bosses was pretty tough.

People say "it was so easy" but that's because they compared it to SWP and to original Naxx that they thought was super hard, which Classic proved it wasn't.

Even if they didn't buff Naxx, it would STILL be harder than ANY Classic-Classic content, harder than T4 and maybe even harder than BT/MH.

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So you have all the time in the world to pug raid, you just refuse to actually improve to the point you can engage with the content. This isn't a content problem, it's a you problem.

Are you also offended that you have enough time to head down to the local basketball court and shoot some hoops but you can't commit to an organised team, so the NBA needs to enforce a 5'8 height limit and cement shoes?

No, I am not interested in playing in the NBA, I am interested in playing with the local guys in the neighborhood, Steve, Eric, Edward, who are middleaged guys with dadbods. And we wanna play a similar team. I am offended however, if the guy who own the court say that the other team is forced off the court, and we are forced to play a semi-professional team of fit, tall 20 year olds who dream of the NBA instead.

That leaves no place left for me to play basketball. Just like WotLK might be too Retail-inspired, leaving me with no version left of WoW to play.

WHERE am I suppose to play the game I have loved for a long time? You tell me, where? Retail is out of the question, WotLK is getting to hard and demanding, Season of Mastery is buffed, also too hard and demanding. It's like Blizzard is forcing me to either quit or to play some private server of original Classic, which at this point are both pretty dead and "illegal". And I hate private servers to begin with, and I don't want to quit.

Can you understand my frustration? Classic-Classic and most of Classic-TBC was a dream come true. WotLK is looking to be the same nightmare Retail and SoM are. I am indeed very upset

[Tojara]

I think people are telling you that Naxx being changed just isn't going to matter. Otherwise WoTLK is DoA for you anyway unless you go out of your way to campaign for everything after Naxx to be nerfed. Unless they nerf Ulduar, you're just going to have zero fun in WoTLK past the first 6 months anyway.

I'm still confused what alternate reality OG Naxx from WoTLK you played. It was easier than anything in TBC by a landslide with the only requirement for my group (who wasn't that great at the time) was hitting max level. Any assortment of leveling gear, or BT/Sunwell gear was fine and literally nobody had to grind dungeons before entering it. 3D Sartharion was hard (on 10M, not as much on 25M) but I think it's a stretch to claim that Naxx in WoTLK was ever hard.

Blizzard 100% realized they fucked up in WoTLK because they instantly went back to challenging content post Naxx (or at least the option to do it via HM triggers).

Like dude, I get it, but I think you're getting worked up over notes without any context. It will be more challenging, but that might literally mean you do some dungeons for a bit instead of entering right away. WoTLK just kind of fucked everything up with balance. It would be like if a retail raid was released and there was no world first raid because the time/gear requirement didn't matter, it just mattered who entered the dungeon first and killed trivial bosses (which is what OG Naxx was).

Again, I don't get it. You might as well play something else if some buffs to Naxx is the tipping point. There's no way it will be harder than Ulduar, and I doubt it will be harder than anything in T5 or T6. Again I ask, what do you do when Ulduar comes out? Quit? Even base Ulduar without hardmodes involved are harder than a lot of T5 and T6 content in TBC.

[Battlebeard]

I think people are telling you that Naxx being changed just isn't going to matter. Otherwise WoTLK is DoA for you anyway unless you go out of your way to campaign for everything after Naxx to be nerfed. Unless they nerf Ulduar, you're just going to have zero fun in WoTLK past the first 6 months anyway.

I'm still confused what alternate reality OG Naxx from WoTLK you played. It was easier than anything in TBC by a landslide with the only requirement for my group (who wasn't that great at the time) was hitting max level. Any assortment of leveling gear, or BT/Sunwell gear was fine and literally nobody had to grind dungeons before entering it. 3D Sartharion was hard (on 10M, not as much on 25M) but I think it's a stretch to claim that Naxx in WoTLK was ever hard.

Blizzard 100% realized they fucked up in WoTLK because they instantly went back to challenging content post Naxx (or at least the option to do it via HM triggers).

Like dude, I get it, but I think you're getting worked up over notes without any context. It will be more challenging, but that might literally mean you do some dungeons for a bit instead of entering right away. WoTLK just kind of fucked everything up with balance. It would be like if a retail raid was released and there was no world first raid because the time/gear requirement didn't matter, it just mattered who entered the dungeon first and killed trivial bosses (which is what OG Naxx was).

Again, I don't get it. You might as well play something else if some buffs to Naxx is the tipping point. There's no way it will be harder than Ulduar, and I doubt it will be harder than anything in T5 or T6. Again I ask, what do you do when Ulduar comes out? Quit? Even base Ulduar without hardmodes involved are harder than a lot of T5 and T6 content in TBC.

I remember very well, that it took many months to clear Naxx 25 man. I checked armory to see dates.

WotLK was released i November and some people cleared it then with guilds. I cleared Naxx 10 in january, and most bosses in 25man had fallen in late February early March, but Sapphiron and Kelthuzad, I killed mid-April. Five months after release, cause it was brutally hard to find decent pugs back then and clearing 4-5 months later with pugs was NOT unusual.

I even took time to check some buddies of mine who also pug raided, and this was NOT a slow kill for PUGS. I was very average.

How this is considered the easiest raid ever I have no idea. I think you will be surprised it's not a walkover.

[Video Games]

I remember very well, that it took many months to clear Naxx 25 man. I checked armory to see dates.

WotLK was released i November and some people cleared it then with guilds. I cleared Naxx 10 in january, and most bosses in 25man had fallen in late February early March, but Sapphiron and Kelthuzad, I killed mid-April. Five months after release, cause it was brutally hard to find decent pugs back then and clearing 4-5 months later with pugs was NOT unusual.

I even took time to check some buddies of mine who also pug raided, and this was NOT a slow kill for PUGS. I was very average.

How this is considered the easiest raid ever I have no idea. I think you will be surprised it's not a walkover.

Because my guild cleared the whole tier on day 5 with 95% sunwell gear

[Shammybr]

Classic is the worse game, by far. If people don't play for nostalgia and good memories, WHY would they ever pick Classic over Retail.

You can't just say Classic is the worse game like that without taking in the context of what a video game provides in its entirety. There are whole dimensions separating the retail and classic versions of the game that can't just be explained by THIS VERSION DOES BETTER, we all have our preferences and it's not as objective as you paint it to be.

Let's take, for example, your argument that classic "lacks so many features and conviniences the modern game has. I could prolly list 100 things Retail does better". This would make sense if we were talking about choosing a travel company, but a video game is selling you an EXPERIENCE, and conviniences are something that impacts this experience. Why do you think Blizzard chose to make you drink/eat after every other pull back in the day? The reason is controlling the pacing of the game. Drinking and eating in dungeons/leveling inserts a required downtime into the gameplay. That little single thing ramifies into a whole set of gameplay consequences. You get time to chat and interact with your party/guild members, time for mobs to respawn and etc.

So now you know having all your mana/hp restored after every combat instantly is not just some convenience, it's a hard game pacing choice made deliberately by the devs. It's not worse or better, it just changes some aspects of it in some direction. The same with Dungeon Finder or any other system.

That's why some people choose Classic over Retail, they have a whole set of atmosphere and overall feeling of the game. One is not just the other but older, it's an actual different feeling altogether.

Next time you hop into an MMO you should stop and think about every single choice the devs made and try to insert their consequences in how the game is felt by you, instead of just thinking instantly teleporting to your destination is the better choice always.

[Xath]

I remember very well, that it took many months to clear Naxx 25 man. I checked armory to see dates.

WotLK was released i November and some people cleared it then with guilds. I cleared Naxx 10 in january, and most bosses in 25man had fallen in late February early March, but Sapphiron and Kelthuzad, I killed mid-April. Five months after release, cause it was brutally hard to find decent pugs back then and clearing 4-5 months later with pugs was NOT unusual.

I even took time to check some buddies of mine who also pug raided, and this was NOT a slow kill for PUGS. I was very average.

How this is considered the easiest raid ever I have no idea. I think you will be surprised it's not a walkover.

Naxx was cleared on almost every server the week of release. It was an absolute joke. We cleared it the first week in full sunwell gear. Only our first few people to hit had ever started doing heroics before we did naxx.

[Saltysquidoon]

Please, unless blizzard makes 'number go up' to the point of mathematical impossibility (so realistically patchwerk could be overturned for casual guilds, maybe) Naxx will never be hard.
We have seen it proven time and time again the idea anything in vanilla or tbc being hard was nostalgia-fueled copium*. A nerfed version of a vanilla raid with wrath designed specs and itemisation (even with slightly higher numbers) is going to melt immediately.


*The greatest thing about TBC classic was finally seeing "muh heckin heroics" posting die now people can't pretend sheep moon, sap star was ever hard.

[Kagthul]

P2W.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Nzx]

No, I am not interested in playing in the NBA, I am interested in playing with the local guys in the neighborhood, Steve, Eric, Edward, who are middleaged guys with dadbods. And we wanna play a similar team. I am offended however, if the guy who own the court say that the other team is forced off the court, and we are forced to play a semi-professional team of fit, tall 20 year olds who dream of the NBA instead.

That leaves no place left for me to play basketball. Just like WotLK might be too Retail-inspired, leaving me with no version left of WoW to play.

WHERE am I suppose to play the game I have loved for a long time? You tell me, where? Retail is out of the question, WotLK is getting to hard and demanding, Season of Mastery is buffed, also too hard and demanding. It's like Blizzard is forcing me to either quit or to play some private server of original Classic, which at this point are both pretty dead and "illegal". And I hate private servers to begin with, and I don't want to quit.

Can you understand my frustration? Classic-Classic and most of Classic-TBC was a dream come true. WotLK is looking to be the same nightmare Retail and SoM are. I am indeed very upset

In a word, no. I don't even believe that you are frustrated, and I suspect that you're just trolling because what you're saying is so absurd.

To be clear: "Steve, Eric, Edward" and the other "dadbods" are literally Normal/Heroic raiders. LFR raiders are figurative schoolchildren playing basketball in phys ed class. Where you're positioning yourself is at the toddler level, incapable even of bouncing a ball. The world content alone in the original Classic you're apparently desperate for was harder than any LFR has ever been - and before you complain about 10 minute fights and one shots I introduce you to Elite quests, the Hunter bow questline, and literally any time you pull more than two mobs while leveling a warrior without one of your 30/60minute cooldowns up.

[KrayZ33]

Because my guild cleared the whole tier on day 5 with 95% sunwell gear

Mine did clear it literally on the day of raid-release in one (long) session. If I remember correctly, you could join in directly as soon as you hit max level. So it was all about which guild would be first to have enough players at max level. But that part, I'll admit, might be remembered wrong. I'm somewhat certain however because I had to rush to max level to be in the first raid.

Naxx WotLK was by far the easiest raid ever done in this game, that part is still clear in my mind.

If pugs had a hard time, it's because the average woltk gamer was no where near the average gamer of today.

[VinceVega]

Kids these days? I just refered to myself as a dad gamer :P

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Yes, it is fun with that. It helps the community to make it inclusive. We don't want elitism in classic. We don't want "link achiv" and "inspect for gear" to be a too big part of the game. The easier the raid, the less of that crap.

Who is this "we" you are talking about?

[Video Games]

Mine did clear it literally on the day of raid-release in one (long) session. If I remember correctly, you could join in directly as soon as you hit max level. So it was all about which guild would be first to have enough players at max level. But that part, I'll admit, might be remembered wrong. I'm somewhat certain however because I had to rush to max level to be in the first raid.

Naxx WotLK was by far the easiest raid ever done in this game, that part is still clear in my mind.

If pugs had a hard time, it's because the average woltk gamer was no where near the average gamer of today.

They were open but t7 25 world firsts were 2 days after release by ensidia so unless you mean 10 man you did not clear them day of.

[Popastique]

Come on now, I want the community of a guild, but I also want loot. No matter what loot system you run, you will fall behind if you don't attend every raid. If you wanna maximize gearing, you need 100% attendance. I raided only current content and I didn't miss a reset of the latest raid in Classic or TBC (up to SWP) and I don't intend to in WotLK. Rather get loot every week (or a chance at it if RNG is bad) than loot every other week with a guild.

So it is possible to cope with casual guild raiding, but you are just loot obsessed and can't afford to miss a single reset in case your work/family problem arises - therefore you won't commit. Definitely sounds like *you* problem.

P.S. *Dad gamer* is not a term i would use to describe you btw

[Mrbleedinggums]

They can always revert the buffs if it ends up being too much, people. They're not going to buff it to the point that it's impossible to complete, it'll be more like SoM MC where you can't just run in there at level 55 with greens and complete the whole raid in an hour. Same concept, you're going to need to likely do some heroics and get some gear to be sure you can withstand the increased damage/healing required.

[KrayZ33]

They were open but t7 25 world firsts were 2 days after release by ensidia so unless you mean 10 man you did not clear them day of.

Oh shit! You are correct.
I just had to check and I did remember it wrong. The achievements cleared it up for me.
It was 2 sessions as well.
I pinged 80 on 17/11/08
Then we had to wait a bit till we got roughly 25 players, cleared the wings on the 20th and the last two on 22th both, so it took 1 ID (no reset for us in between)

Ah well, close enough. Never did I experience such an easy raid afterwards.
It's just funny to see all the dungeon achievements having a higher date than the raid clear. That tells a story on it's own.

[Okacz]

I just hope they don't overbuff the HP of bosses. Increase of severity of mechanics sounds like a great idea for Naxx, as some of the bosses abilities barely did anything (Faerlina, Noth, Gothik come to mind). If they do the opposite we might end up with easy bosses that take way too long to just put down. Let's call it "Retail LFG Syndrome".

Tbh it would be best if they introduced HC system to Naxx. It would allow casuals to have their fun and hardcores to have their challenge. And it doesn't change too much, as WotLK introduced those modes in the first place.

[Makaloff]

[QUOTE=Battlebeard;53823469]Classic is the worse game, by far. If people don't play for nostalgia and good memories, WHY would they ever pick Classic over Retail.

Retail is miles ahead in every department, it is the better game, but I still like Classic more cause I have so many fond memories. Just like Diablo 3 is by far better than Diablo 2, in every single way, but people still like D2 cause it was so big and popular back in the day.

Just look at it objectively. D2 had clunky controls, confusing skill systems, slow paced combat, inconvinience all over with potions, runes, scrolls etc, it is WORSE but I get people like it.

Same with Classic. It lacks so many features and conviniences the modern game has. I could prolly list 100 things Retail does better, but I cba, cause I think you get the point from the Diablo example.

J. Allen Brack was 100% correct when he said "you think you do, but you don't", cause he told the truth and basically said "Classic sucked, you don't wanna go back there", and he was right, cause compared to retail, Classic DO suck, BUT what J. Allen Brack miscalculated and forgot, is that Nostalgia is like a drug and people love it. It makes people see past all the crap and still enjoy something.

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id actually argue classics class design is much better (wotlk), the classes feel unike and fun to play, i have a talent system that actually is usefull and each specc and class have their role. Not to mention hunter in classic dont feel garbage to play like it does on retail (surv is meele and MM got screwed over by the surv rework). My combat rouge isnt a wannabe RNG pirate in classic, nor is the story out of the window, nor do i have to grind massive systems that gets thrown away after next expansion and throws balance out of the window. in short, i play for the design, not for nostalgia. Retail went downhill with WoD, BFA and SL cemented the absolute garbage retail ended up becoming. Best part with classic is that its a RPG, retail is just a fast paced lobby game that get stale quick, so much stuff have been removed for no reasons (quivers on hunters showing on the back for example), gear is just boring stat sticks, JC and Enchanting pretty much useless among many other things. if it werent for classic, i wouldnt be playing now and tbh, even if DF seems to fix some of the issues with retail, im not too convinced it will actually be any good.

Not to mention J A brack was a muppet on many levels, so i wouldnt bother listening to whatever clueless stuff he rants on about. the "you think but you dont" aged like old milk and the fact that retail was down at like 500k subs at one point pretty much shows how bad retail actually was and still very much is.

But anyhow to get more ontopic: im pretty sure your guild will be able to clear naxx, it was hilariously undertuned in OG wotlk and even with a buff it wont even get close to be a challenge. at most it will take some more time, which isnt the end of the world really. people will still pug it, hell i raid lead it back in wotlk as a 12 year old with people that was completly clueless and i still cleared it each week.