Buffed Naxxramas Will Backfire, Disaster Ahead!

[jackofwind]

Sounds like you should play retail.

I want a game that is not tryhard, minmaxing etc. Where it’s not the end of the world if you don’t have all consumes or enchants. Where people don’t judge logs or achievements, but rather appriciate good times and goofing around a little. Its a game after all, its meant to be fun.

For years brutal difficulties have split the playerbase, excluded many and created toxicity.

You need a single player game then, because people will ALWAYS min/max and judge those who don't. Things like enchants are the bare minimum - they're hardly even considered min/maxing anymore.

[voidillusion]

A significant portion of the playerbase is one that's used to do this content repeatedly for years now, hence the pserver meta expression being thrown around often and on diferent subjects.

You give the 2022 playerbase the piss easy version of original LK Naxx and the game will suffer. I don't believe it to be even optional.

Looking back a couple months, when ppl were talking about LK, the most common turnoff i personally heard from differente sources was how ppl weren't looking forward to do Naxx again, 1 and 1/2 years after the vanilla one, and so facerollable.

[cozzri]

Original Nax in wotlk was faceroll for EVERYBODY.
We ran through it nearly wihtout wipes in a new raidgroup who has never played together ot set foot into vanilla nax.

It was laughable.

Making games TOO easy is not good. People play it two days and leave again.


Seriously. Nearly every raid in originall TBC was 10x harder than nax in wotlk. There have been WORLDS between them and it was not that fun. Ulduar was when Wotlk raidning began really.

Also even the worst player is better than the median back then.

The raid was quite fun at the difficulty presented in wotlk; and the achievements provided a unique progression for unlocking rewards. Getting the Undying Title was a very satisfying experience for my circle of friends at the time.

Raids don't need to be hard.

Having optional challenges was one of the best aspects of raiding in wotlk.

[The Stormbringer]

Also, is the original UI bad? :P I've played WoW for easily 25 000 hours since 2005, and I always ONLY used the original UI, I love it and can't stand any other interface. And I know I'm not alone

You're right about this, at least. I've never changed my UI beyond the default. I'll get a few add-ons here and there, but they don't mess with the UI, beyond perhaps adding a single element here or there, like the "point me" stuff, or a quest tracker back in the day that showed stuff on your minimap, before Blizzard added it themselves.

[Recovery]

As you might know, Naxx in WotLK Classic will be buffed and harder than it was back in the day. Some people cheer for this, but I think this will be a HUGE disaster for the game. Now, I will generalize some, and I don't speak for everyone, but I know many agree with me. Read everything before you comment please!

Lets face it, WoW Classic is the "dad-gamer" version of WoW. While there are some super tryhards, most of us are 30-40+ and have quite busy lives. Whether we have kids or not, being called "boomer" or "dad gamer" or even "casual" make most of us say "yeah, true" rather than getting upset. Where am I getting at? I'm getting at that many of us do NOT appriciate difficulty, and what we love of Classic is a nostalgic trip back in time, chill easy raids, and laughs with friends. If we wanted challenge, we'd play Retail.

The proof is out there. Classic since 2019 has been GREAT with a few exceptions, or rather 2 moments of total despair, Tier 5 pre-nerf and SWP. There is no coincidence tons and tons of guilds fell appart at those moments and that tens of thousands, maybe hundred of thousands of players quit. T5 and especially SWP was freaking awful and ruined so much of what we love with the idea of Classic.

For many, maybe even most of us "dad gamers", guildraiding is simply not an option, and hasn't been needed outside of pre-nerf T5 and SWP. Our lives are simply too busy. And that is fine. This is the version of the game that you should be able to Pug all the way. Do not say this game is made for guilds, cause it's simply not true. "Join a guild" is not an option and not relevant in this discussion. Anyway, SWP is completely unpugable. The only succesful pugs I've seen on Firemaw EU (the biggest server in Europe) are semi guild runs (which aren't really pugs) and GDKP runs. Doing like "hm, I got some spare time, lets run SWP, ok going trade chat LFM SWP Need..." days didn't exist now, and with the buffs to Naxxramas, they will still be non existent.

This is terrible. I hyped WotLK so much, for many, many months. Since I killed Illidan in January with a pug, I have hyped this, cause I knew the game soon (with SWP release) would be unplayable and I looked forward to easier content. Now, there is no hype. I am not sure I will do ANY boss in WotLK, and since I love raiding, should I even play it? Now, if you think "your loss", do you really think it's just our loss, when you start seeing thousands and thousands of people quit?

Look, T5 and SWP almost KILLED Classic TBC since it killed pugging. And worse yet, it's part of the continued growth of the cancer that is GDKP. People complain and rage over Diablo Immortal, but TBC is even more P2W with this plague that is GDKP. Cause lets face it, the ONLY way to experience SWP right now is to join a GDKP, and you can't get in those unless you are rich, hence making the game completely P2W.

What do you think is gonna happen with buffed Naxx. Soft Reset pugs will DIE. Pugging will DIE. Guild raiding is not an option for so many, many, many of us, our only 2 options will be to quit, or to basically buy gold and join GDKP runs of Naxx, making it further P2W. Does ANYONE think this is healthy for the game?

There are no winners with buffed Naxxramas. NO ONE wins with this. Buffed Naxx will be too hard for us dad gamers, but still give ZERO prestige for guilds, as it's STILL MUCH EASIER than anything retail offer, so who actually wants it buffed? Buffed Naxxramas will lead to so many thousands of people quitting, and those who stay will plague the game by making the dispicable thing that is GDKP even bigger. If you think GDKP is bad now, it's gonna get ten times worse in WotLK.

What are your thoughts? Do you think Blizz will nerf it after a while? Maybe even pre-launch? Do you think this can lead to the end of WoW Classic? I already predicted ICC will kill the game, and that Cataclysm will never happen, because those 2 are far too hard for what most people want. But that's far ahead, could this game be doomed even before we get it?

Its much easier to do 10 man with a guild or even pug 10 man.. You will be fine.

[Toppy]

How has blizzard still not realized that pandering, or attempting to pander, to raiders is the worst thing you can do?

Fucks sake WotLK was one of, if not thee most popular time for raiding in Warcrafts history BECAUSE, not in spite of, its easily accesible raids.

[Etna-the-Undying]

As you might know, Naxx in WotLK Classic will be buffed and harder than it was back in the day. Some people cheer for this, but I think this will be a HUGE disaster for the game. Now, I will generalize some, and I don't speak for everyone, but I know many agree with me. Read everything before you comment please!

Lets face it, WoW Classic is the "dad-gamer" version of WoW. While there are some super tryhards, most of us are 30-40+ and have quite busy lives. Whether we have kids or not, being called "boomer" or "dad gamer" or even "casual" make most of us say "yeah, true" rather than getting upset. Where am I getting at? I'm getting at that many of us do NOT appriciate difficulty, and what we love of Classic is a nostalgic trip back in time, chill easy raids, and laughs with friends. If we wanted challenge, we'd play Retail.

The proof is out there. Classic since 2019 has been GREAT with a few exceptions, or rather 2 moments of total despair, Tier 5 pre-nerf and SWP. There is no coincidence tons and tons of guilds fell appart at those moments and that tens of thousands, maybe hundred of thousands of players quit. T5 and especially SWP was freaking awful and ruined so much of what we love with the idea of Classic.

For many, maybe even most of us "dad gamers", guildraiding is simply not an option, and hasn't been needed outside of pre-nerf T5 and SWP. Our lives are simply too busy. And that is fine. This is the version of the game that you should be able to Pug all the way. Do not say this game is made for guilds, cause it's simply not true. "Join a guild" is not an option and not relevant in this discussion. Anyway, SWP is completely unpugable. The only succesful pugs I've seen on Firemaw EU (the biggest server in Europe) are semi guild runs (which aren't really pugs) and GDKP runs. Doing like "hm, I got some spare time, lets run SWP, ok going trade chat LFM SWP Need..." days didn't exist now, and with the buffs to Naxxramas, they will still be non existent.

This is terrible. I hyped WotLK so much, for many, many months. Since I killed Illidan in January with a pug, I have hyped this, cause I knew the game soon (with SWP release) would be unplayable and I looked forward to easier content. Now, there is no hype. I am not sure I will do ANY boss in WotLK, and since I love raiding, should I even play it? Now, if you think "your loss", do you really think it's just our loss, when you start seeing thousands and thousands of people quit?

Look, T5 and SWP almost KILLED Classic TBC since it killed pugging. And worse yet, it's part of the continued growth of the cancer that is GDKP. People complain and rage over Diablo Immortal, but TBC is even more P2W with this plague that is GDKP. Cause lets face it, the ONLY way to experience SWP right now is to join a GDKP, and you can't get in those unless you are rich, hence making the game completely P2W.

What do you think is gonna happen with buffed Naxx. Soft Reset pugs will DIE. Pugging will DIE. Guild raiding is not an option for so many, many, many of us, our only 2 options will be to quit, or to basically buy gold and join GDKP runs of Naxx, making it further P2W. Does ANYONE think this is healthy for the game?

There are no winners with buffed Naxxramas. NO ONE wins with this. Buffed Naxx will be too hard for us dad gamers, but still give ZERO prestige for guilds, as it's STILL MUCH EASIER than anything retail offer, so who actually wants it buffed? Buffed Naxxramas will lead to so many thousands of people quitting, and those who stay will plague the game by making the dispicable thing that is GDKP even bigger. If you think GDKP is bad now, it's gonna get ten times worse in WotLK.

What are your thoughts? Do you think Blizz will nerf it after a while? Maybe even pre-launch? Do you think this can lead to the end of WoW Classic? I already predicted ICC will kill the game, and that Cataclysm will never happen, because those 2 are far too hard for what most people want. But that's far ahead, could this game be doomed even before we get it?

I read everything you wrote and I do agree on many points I still have the same question in mind by the end when I read the title at the start.

What are you going to do when Ulduar gets out?

What are you going to do for the first month ICC gets out without the 30%HP and damage buff.


I rather that ppl quit at the very start than in the middle

[Toppy]

I read everything you wrote and I do agree on many points I still have the same question in mind by the end when I read the title at the start.

What are you going to do when Ulduar gets out?

What are you going to do for the first month ICC gets out without the 30%HP and damage buff.


I rather that ppl quit at the very start than in the middle

Ulduar and ICC arent that "hardcore" outside of the hard mode/25 man versions. They were extremely puggable back in the day due to their ease of access, which, led to a lot of new people getting into raiding.

[Battlebeard]

I read everything you wrote and I do agree on many points I still have the same question in mind by the end when I read the title at the start.

What are you going to do when Ulduar gets out?

What are you going to do for the first month ICC gets out without the 30%HP and damage buff.


I rather that ppl quit at the very start than in the middle

Probably do other things, do achievements and what not, Battlegrounds etc.

[Millyraynge]

How has blizzard still not realized that pandering, or attempting to pander, to raiders is the worst thing you can do?

Fucks sake WotLK was one of, if not thee most popular time for raiding in Warcrafts history BECAUSE, not in spite of, its easily accesible raids.

Only Naxxramas and Sartharion had easy accessability for each skill level. Malygos was already a decent sieve. Ulduar and ICC were very difficult to clear for low to mid skill groups, even without hard modes, so many players fell by the wayside. I can still remember the discussions back then, that people were outraged about the fact that the raids were simply too big.

[Battlebeard]

Considering how stupidly easy it was in Wrath, I'm not surprised they want to make it harder.

Actually I am a little surprised considering they let WoW Classic be braindead as well.

original level 80 Naxx was so extremely braindead that my Guild was able to Clear it and got like 85% of the Meta-achieves in the first couple of weeks of Wrath launching.

"Braindead", which I assume you mean very easy, is something ALOT of us enjoy. We just wanna see the content again, just looking for nostalgia, that's it, no need for challenge. That's why I play Classic, that's why many play classic.

- - - Updated - - -

You need a single player game then, because people will ALWAYS min/max and judge those who don't. Things like enchants are the bare minimum - they're hardly even considered min/maxing anymore.

Yeah, and normally one can avoid those toxic people, cause there has always been some chill groups that just go with anyone. Well up to T4 at least, and part of T6. And I hoped for T7, but now I am indeed scared min/max will be more common hence the thread.

[RelaZ]

I mean, each to their own, but it's only going to get worse them there.

S1? Fair enough, we'll see how the buff goes.
S2? Well, your Healer better have a Val'anyr, which means Ulduar 25man or bust (and Ulduar 25 is a lot harder than Naxx)
S3? Melees better show up with Death's Choice / Death's Paragon as well as Healers with Solace of the Fallen / Solace of the defeated.
S4? Shadowmourne / DBW, enough said.

Especially in the case of S3 / S4, Heroic mode is on the table, not just Normal and i'm 100% certain that even a buffed Naxx will be much easier than any Heroic TotGC 25man Bosses or ICC ones.
And that is 100% authentic, don't forget that the skill ceiling certainly went up by a lot in Wotlk.

If you want an expansion where you can completely skip out on PvE for PvP, i suggest you to wait until Classic MoP.

I'm well aware of the WotLK loot tables, no need to inform me. But thanks (I guess?).

On to the actual topic at hand: I never said I want to completely skip out on PvE. Well I do want to skip it, but I'm fine with doing PvE as long as I'm able to PuG all of it, without joining a guild with set raid times. And Naxx, Ulduar, ICC etc is all fully puggable (it's pugged often, even buffed versions, on private servers).

PS: WotLK seasons are referred to as S5-S8.

[Kralljin]

On to the actual topic at hand: I never said I want to completely skip out on PvE. Well I do want to skip it, but I'm fine with doing PvE as long as I'm able to PuG all of it, without joining a guild with set raid times. And Naxx, Ulduar, ICC etc is all fully puggable (it's pugged often, even buffed versions, on private servers).

Point is that Naxx isn't going to get buffed to a point where you can't pug it, that's just not going to happen.

However, the upper end of PvE will be certainly harder in Wotlk than what you've had in TBC, so if you struggle with pugging in TBC, then that upper end will get a lot worse in Wotlk.
And that upper end does indeed give you quite the edge in PvP.

PS: WotLK seasons are referred to as S5-S8.

We can all argue about nomenclatures but Classic Wotlk content schedules will also be referred to by Phase 1-4, rather than a patch number.

[RelaZ]

Point is that Naxx isn't going to get buffed to a point where you can't pug it, that's just not going to happen.
However, the upper end of PvE will be certainly harder in Wotlk than what you've had in TBC, so if you struggle with pugging in TBC, then that upper end will get a lot worse in Wotlk.

Based on what we're seeing on private servers at the moment I think you're wrong, but we'll see.

[Radiobiology]

Very dramatic thread, but i somewhat agree. Leave Naxx just as it was but add a "realm first" mode, just add a npc, maybe a gnome or a cat at the beginning of the raid or just outside. You talk to it and toggle realm first mode which buffs everything by 100%, first guild to clear it per server gets that shiny Conqueror of Naxxramas title.

And no farming gear in the normal mode and then toggling to the realm first mode, kill one boss in either mode and get locked to that mode until next week.

[Biomega]

Fucks sake WotLK was one of, if not thee most popular time for raiding in Warcrafts history BECAUSE, not in spite of, its easily accesible raids.

How do you know this?

Sure, player numbers peaked in WotLK (though one might argue that the fact they started to drop soon after is a sign that WotLK didn't fill its players with confidence for the future of the game) but how do you know that was BECAUSE of easily accessible raids, just because WotLK happened to have those?

[Millyraynge]

Very dramatic thread, but i somewhat agree. Leave Naxx just as it was but add a "realm first" mode, just add a npc, maybe a gnome or a cat at the beginning of the raid or just outside. You talk to it and toggle realm first mode which buffs everything by 100%, first guild to clear it per server gets that shiny Conqueror of Naxxramas title.

And no farming gear in the normal mode and then toggling to the realm first mode, kill one boss in either mode and get locked to that mode until next week.

with no changes first naxxramas realm first will appear within the first 6 hours on release day.

[ifrah]

Find it kinda cute when certain people moan how logs, achievements, gear score, io-score, whatever "elitist" metric has ruined WoW in particular. No. Gaming as a whole has evolved. The nostalgic world of vanilla WoW did not have YouTube as we know it today, as in packed to the brim with videos teaching you to drink water, tie shoelaces, play paladin in WoW and whatnot. There were no streamers literally having as their day job to play video games. You get the idea where this is heading?
Knowledge, attitudes, everything then trickles down to the player base. The amateurish Wild West times you miss aren't coming back, no matter how much Blizzard tuned the raids or whatever to your favour. You may keep deluding yourself that it was retail, (un)buffed Naxx25/10, Ulduar, warcraftlogs, achievements, raider.io or uncle Bob who ruined WoW, but better just be honest.

[Gnosk]

Strange that people say it's so easy and so brain dead yet back in the day you required a certain gearscore and achievement to join raids for it.

[Utrrabbit]

No, it was not, not even remotely. Naxx 25 was wipeable, had some actual mechanics.

I've done MC with 25 man and most weren't good geared at all, it was much easier.

Lmao. Saying nax25 was hard is a joke. My guild cleared it with 18 players in tbc gear back during original wrath. You have no idea what you are talking about.

- - - Updated - - -

Strange that people say it's so easy and so brain dead yet back in the day you required a certain gearscore and achievement to join raids for it.

Gearscore only started in uldir. Before that it wasnt a thing.