New black dragonflight leader [Spoilers]

[KainneAbsolute]

Good, things are getting spicy.

It makes sense for all dragons to gather in the Dragon Isles. No more Deathwing, no more Old Gods, their land is available, a common enemy returned, etc. I like this.

On the other hand, it is about time someone stops Wrathion. I think the character is excellent, but Wrathion does whatever without assuming any consequences. I just hope that this tension among black dragons continues, and Sabellian isn't killed just to favor Wrathion.

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Edit: or maybe Blizzard is setting the stage for "evil" dragonflights counterparts? 5 versus 5?

[Eazy]

Sabellian will come back just to be a build up for Wrathion.

Even though I like him more and I think that he's much more competent, Wrathion is more popular.

[Zephre]

I wouldn't be surprised if Anachronos shows up in Dragonflight. He was last seen active in BfA as well, as he's the one who allows the Horde PC access to the Vision of Time once more so you can return to AU Draenor to recruit the Mag'har.

That doesn't change the fact 95% of the time we deal with bronze dragons it's always Chromie front and centre, no development for Anachronos, the heir of Nozdormu, no development for Soridormi either. Chromie even received a model update, nothing special like the aspects but it may indicate once again they plan to shove Chromie front and centre, I'm starting to think it's another Danuser favourite (It probably is)

[Wonderment2]

Instead of addressing your points, I'll just bring this up to the original argument: it makes zero sense for all the dragonflights to just step aside and defer to mortals to decide which dragon should lead the black dragonflight.

Expect that my point is if the Horde and Alliance wanted they could force the Dragons to step aside....

Because wow lore has shown a handful of champions can invade dragonic bases (even kill aspects with some aid) and even non-champion mortals can kill dragons. It has shown Nightfallen can threaten clutches and ethreal can invade the Nexus. DKs alone can invade Red Dragon bases.

Individual dragons can be powerful but as a faction they're weak compared to playable factions. Certainly since the Cataclysm.

[Aurabolt]

Go read Watcrimes. Garrosh's escape and the formation of the Iron horde to invade Azeroth was all Wrathions idea. He was the mastermind behind all that. He and Kairos were partners and was the one that actually let Garrosh out

Oh yeah I am aware of that but I would stop short of saying Wrathion masterminded the Iron Horde. Garrosh clearly didn't know Wrathion's idea was why Kairoz helped him escape and get to AU Draenor in the first place. Had he personally gone to AU Draenor then yeah, you could make that case. Garrosh killed Kairoz as soon as they crossed over so it's unlikely he would have cooperated had he known the real reason he was sent to AU Draenor. All Kairoz told him was he had to unite the Orcs in AU Draenor, he'll be a hero, blah blah blah but not much beyond that.

The variable Wrathion never accounted for was Garrosh doing his own thing because if he did, he would have sent one of his own people to keep tabs on Garrosh. He should have known Kairoz wouldn't have been able to keep Garrosh in check. Wrathion hoped to use the Iron Horde to deal with the Legion and when that plan failed, he hoped to use the winner of the Fourth War to deal with N'zoth and Anduin was just not in the mood for his shenanigans.

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Who was backed by Wrathion. The whole plot was due to Wrathion's initial plans in Pandaria going awry.

Yeah I know that. Wrathion learned after that it's not enough to just set a plot in motion. It's why he got decked by Anduin after The Fourth War

[Aucald]

That doesn't change the fact 95% of the time we deal with bronze dragons it's always Chromie front and centre, no development for Anachronos, the heir of Nozdormu, no development for Soridormi either. Chromie even received a model update, nothing special like the aspects but it may indicate once again they plan to shove Chromie front and centre, I'm starting to think it's another Danuser favourite (It probably is)

Several prominent dragon NPCs got model updates in Dragonflight, including Kalecgos, Nozdormu, Merithra, Sindragosa (who now has a humanoid visage form), and Alexstrasza. Chromie is probably the most popular member of the Bronzes, owing to her role all the way back in Classic, and her being the first Bronze dragon who really gets involved with the story. No idea about Danuser's opinion on the matter, but Chromie's had a special place in many people's opinions since the beginnings of WoW.

Nozdormu, Soridormi, and even Anachronos are all well known for being rather hands-off as concerns mortal affairs, as well - leaving Chromie as the maverick Bronze who tends to involve herself in mortal affairs. So if there's Bronze activity in Dragonflight, I'd wager Chromie won't be far from it.

[Alanar]

Not really, yesra is still in the shadowlands and the blue flight doesn’t even exist any more disbanding in tides of war as the dragons other then kal thought it was pointless.

Not completely off if we think about it.

Ysera had hints already, wrathion seems to be the main guy so far, purging the corruption (will probably end up leading)
Nozdormu is the big questionmark, but it would also be a possibility the end of time was just a moment in time the pc and hes team will be able to fix it or something.

I wouln't say it's completely bs.. sure daugher of Ysera and chromie still excists, but I mean cmon..

[Khaza-R]

Honestly should be Ebonhorn and Sabellian. Wrathion has like zero qualifications to lead other than being popular with certain fans.

[Zephre]

Several prominent dragon NPCs got model updates in Dragonflight, including Kalecgos, Nozdormu, Merithra, Sindragosa (who now has a humanoid visage form), and Alexstrasza. Chromie is probably the most popular member of the Bronzes, owing to her role all the way back in Classic, and her being the first Bronze dragon who really gets involved with the story. No idea about Danuser's opinion on the matter, but Chromie's had a special place in many people's opinions since the beginnings of WoW.

Nozdormu, Soridormi, and even Anachronos are all well known for being rather hands-off as concerns mortal affairs, as well - leaving Chromie as the maverick Bronze who tends to involve herself in mortal affairs. So if there's Bronze activity in Dragonflight, I'd wager Chromie won't be far from it.

Anachronos also appeared from Vanilla and even eclipsed Chromie in importance at the time and even has lore predating classic, the war of the shifting sands, he and the other flights fought alongside the night elves to defeat the Qiraji, outside of that he was one of the main players in the brood of nozdormu quests, you could even fight the guy, you've seen the dragons getting kited to Orgrimmar from the old days? That's Anachronos. Blizzard have all but forgot the character over the years pushing Chromie again and again.

I want the character to be given some time to shine, not Blizzard falling back on good ol' reliable Chromie for the 50th time. Anachronos, once again, is the heir of the bronze flight, the character deserved development as befits it's role in the bronze flight, not Danuser strutting along, retconning the lore, killing off Anachronos or making him evil as previous writers did to Arygos in order to push Kalecgos forward into the leader of the blues, which I also didn't like.

I'm also not sure I agree with the hands off comment either, Anachronos was the first dragon to co-operate with the night elves during the war of the shifting sands, sure it took them attacking the caverns of time but he still came to their aid and worked along side them, he also as you said, helped the horde recruit the Mag'har where as Nozdormu would of told you to sod right back off to Zul'dazar, does that sound hands off?

[Aucald]

Honestly should be Ebonhorn and Sabellian. Wrathion has like zero qualifications to lead other than being popular with certain fans.

That's selling Wrathion a bit short, IMO. He, as a toddler I might add, acted as the magician's hand and more or less masterminded an appreciable portion of the Fourth War trying to decisively end the Alliance/Horde conflict. In so doing, he stole a portion of Lei Shen's Titanic power (itself stolen from Highkeeper Ra) and realized a fundamental truth of the universe itself, that the Pantheon was dead and Azeroth was the final remaining Titan World-Soul. Then, on the heels of that, he insinuated himself into the group of heroes and notables working to save Azeroth from N'Zoth, bestowing the Champion with the means to venture into Ny'alotha and finally contend with the Old God on its home turf. He also participated directly in the battle and landed the blow that finally exposed N'Zoth's core and allowed us to unmake both him and Ny'alotha in one fell swoop.

Wrathion's made a lot of mistakes in his short life, that much is for sure - but he's definitely got qualifications to lay claim to the position as leader of the Black Dragonflight nonetheless.

[Oneirophobia]

Yes, let me pick *look at smudged notes on the back of my hand* Siberia instead of the guy that literally helped us defeat nzoth.

Y'mean the guy who caused the WoD expansion by frigging around with time travel? No thanks.

[Le Conceptuel]

I was worried that they'd forget about Sabellian's existence, glad to see him back. The whole "side with x" angle makes me think that it's just a giant gimmicky bait and neither are actually going to be the new aspect, they'll be unable to come to terms and agree with each other which will prompt the other aspects to pick Ebonhorn as the only suitable leader due to age and experience. Wrathion and Sabellian are just gonna be Chromie's equivalents within the Black Dragonflight.

Ebonhorn would be a terrible choice and almost certainly shouldn't happen (as @Rozz rightly pointed out, he belongs more with the Highmountain), but I do agree that this has a foreboding aura of potentially simply being a gimmick that will try to get hype up and recapture that old BfA tribalism. I do not know if this will be very decent or complete, or if this will have any real relevance.

If we're lucky, it'll be a fun, interesting conflict where you can take sides to see the story from different angles, potentially with the whole Black Dragonflight power struggle persisting through the expansion (or beyond, but that seems unlikely), but it seems like this is going to be a cheap gimmick that won't have any real, long-term relevance or worthwhile rewards for participation on either side.

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That's selling Wrathion a bit short, IMO. He, as a toddler I might add, acted as the magician's hand and more or less masterminded an appreciable portion of the Fourth War trying to decisively end the Alliance/Horde conflict. In so doing, he stole a portion of Lei Shen's Titanic power (itself stolen from Highkeeper Ra) and realized a fundamental truth of the universe itself, that the Pantheon was dead and Azeroth was the final remaining Titan World-Soul. Then, on the heels of that, he insinuated himself into the group of heroes and notables working to save Azeroth from N'Zoth, bestowing the Champion with the means to venture into Ny'alotha and finally contend with the Old God on its home turf. He also participated directly in the battle and landed the blow that finally exposed N'Zoth's core and allowed us to unmake both him and Ny'alotha in one fell swoop.

Wrathion's made a lot of mistakes in his short life, that much is for sure - but he's definitely got qualifications to lay claim to the position as leader of the Black Dragonflight nonetheless.

Wrathion generally seems like the best choice for a number of reasons—it would also allow us to finally close a plot that's been here since Cataclysm and give the character proper closure. It would be very nice to see this character born, grow up, and go through his whole arc throughout the span of the game.

Personally, though, I am very interested in Sabellian. He strikes me as simply a more complex (as opposed to cluttered—very important distinction) character to me who seems to have a more appealing personality.

[Ielenia]

Expect that my point is if the Horde and Alliance wanted they could force the Dragons to step aside....

It's a claim you have, and one I disagree with.

And this is an expansion about us working with the dragonflights, and not about fighting against them to conquer and force new dragons to be their leaders. Especially since I doubt any dragon would want to be submissive to a mortal and be their 'political puppet'.

[Aucald]

Anachronos also appeared from Vanilla and even eclipsed Chromie in importance at the time and even has lore predating classic, the war of the shifting sands, he and the other flights fought alongside the night elves to defeat the Qiraji, outside of that he was one of the main players in the brood of nozdormu quests, you could even fight the guy, you've seen the dragons getting kited to Orgrimmar from the old days? That's Anachronos. Blizzard have all but forgot the character over the years pushing Chromie again and again.

If we're backtracking lore, Chromie also has lore that predates Classic, being present both at the Culling of Stratholme as well as the Well of Eternity prior to the Sundering itself. Of course, as Bronze dragons, both Anachronos and Chromie could theoretically be anywhere at any time in history, so that's probably a meaningless distinction for both of them. But Anachronos is also far from forgotten, especially since he was active in BfA only a few years ago, not to mention the yearly and repeating Children's Week event he is involved in.

I want the character to be given some time to shine, not Blizzard falling back on good ol' reliable Chromie for the 50th time. Anachronos, once again, is the heir of the bronze flight, the character deserved development as befits it's role in the bronze flight, not Danuser strutting along, retconning the lore, killing off Anachronos or making him evil as previous writers did to Arygos in order to push Kalecgos forward into the leader of the blues, which I also didn't like.

I'm not opposed to seeing more of Anachronos, either. Arygos, however, was always kind of git - all the way back to his first appearance in Ahn'Qiraj and then his role in the Nexus Point comic where he recklessly sets off conflict with the Nether drakes who are trying to treat with Tyrigosa. Arygos also sided with Malygos' genocide against mortal spellcasters in the Nexus War back in WotLK. I'd imagine Anachronos would be more likely to take the stage when Nozdormu finally succumbs and becomes Murozond, and Anachronos would be required to step up and lead the Bronzes as the designed heir.

I'm also not sure I agree with the hands off comment either, Anachronos was the first dragon to co-operate with the night elves during the war of the shifting sands, sure it took them attacking the caverns of time but he still came to their aid and worked along side them, he also as you said, helped the horde recruit the Mag'har where as Nozdormu would of told you to sod right back off to Zul'dazar, does that sound hands off?

But, as you pointed out, it took a direct attack on the Caverns of Time for Anachronos to finally rouse himself and contend with the Qiraji threat - noteworthy when the Night Elves had pled their case with the Bronzes beforehand and were ultimately refused assistance. Chromie's had a lot more influence, and interacted much more, with both the Horde and Alliance across the history of Warcraft.

[Le Conceptuel]

Good, things are getting spicy.

It makes sense for all dragons to gather in the Dragon Isles. No more Deathwing, no more Old Gods, their land is available, a common enemy returned, etc. I like this.

On the other hand, it is about time someone stops Wrathion. I think the character is excellent, but Wrathion does whatever without assuming any consequences. I just hope that this tension among black dragons continues, and Sabellian isn't killed just to favor Wrathion.

----
Edit: or maybe Blizzard is setting the stage for "evil" dragonflights counterparts? 5 versus 5?

I'm definitely worried about Sabellian getting the villain bat to make Wrathion look better—it definitely seems like a move the current writing team would go for. The writing is terrible lately and seems designed to frame certain characters as better and to dispose of the ones who don't entirely devote themselves for said characters' success.

[Villager720]

Wrathion hasn’t demonstrated he’s ready to lead anything. He throws tantrums and takes huge risks - rarely with successful outcomes. And when it doesn’t work, he vanishes and lurks in the shadows. Anyone advocating for that type of leadership deserves the consequences.
I would deeply approve of him getting humbled and passed over by an ~actually~ successful schemer from the black dragonflight. No one needs to die or get villain-batted. Just watching Wrathion finally be forced to fall in line would be delightful and a great character growth moment.

[Throren]

Had he personally gone to AU Draenor then yeah

It is worth noting that Wrathion did go to AU Draenor and was aware of everything that was going on there in regards to Garrosh and the Iron horde. He basically kept to the shadows to observe, planning on using whichever force won the war on Draenor to fight the Legion.

[Le Conceptuel]

Wrathion hasn’t demonstrated he’s ready to lead anything. He throws tantrums and takes huge risks. I would deeply approve of him getting humbled and passed over by an ~actually~ successful schemer from the black dragonflight.

Just from this clip alone, it seems like Sabellian actually knows how to formulate his schemes instead of taking lofty bet after lofty bet without any consideration for the long-term impacts of his actions. That's an observation I agree with. If Wrathion and Sabellian could both find a good place in the lore, that would be great.

[Wonderment2]

It's a claim you have, but one I disagree with.

And dhis is an expansion about us working with the dragonflights, and not about fighting against them to conquer and force new dragons to be their leaders. Especially since I doubt any dragon would want to be submissive to a mortal and be their 'political puppet'.

Right so. I've backed my claim up with a decent amount of in universe examples. You're only point has been there is a difference between open warfare and the skirmishs seen in wow. Which is A (note singular) good point then you've basically said nothing to support it beyond what you feel would happen.

Also just checking do you now what a hypothetical is? Because I've REPETITIVELY SAID IF. The likelihood of it happening is irrelevant to the discussion.

Also Christ. You can't understand the point can you? The entire argument is what the dragons want don't matter should the mortals press the issue.

Edit: bolded should just to highlight it's a hypothetical.

[Le Conceptuel]

It can't just be me assiming that Sabellian and Wrathion argue about it over the expansion, for the position to ultimately go to Ebonhorn for some "best leaders are those that don't want to lead" mumbo jumbo.

That's the worst case scenario, but I will say plainly that they're not that stupid. There is no reality in which they would sacrifice this character's whole connection with the Highmountain and unique personality and situation to make him be a Le Wholesum aspect for the Black Dragonflight ... right?