New black dragonflight leader [Spoilers]

[Aucald]

Wrathion generally seems like the best choice for a number of reasons—it would also allow us to finally close a plot that's been here since Cataclysm and give the character proper closure. It would be very nice to see this character born, grow up, and go through his whole arc throughout the span of the game.

Personally, though, I am very interested in Sabellian. He strikes me as simply a more complex (as opposed to cluttered—very important distinction) character to me who seems to have a more appealing personality.

I'm not opposed to Sabellian, either; I think his character in TBC is great - and regardless of his ultimate role in Dragonflight it'll be nice to see him snark his way through a good quest-chain or two. I think it'll also be nice to give Wrathion a real challenge in the form of one of his Black dragon peers, especially since he more or less steamrolled over most of the others when he was solidifying his grasp on power and building the Fangs of the Father to attempt to slay Deathwing. I'm hoping that if Sabellian does turn out to be evil and/or still corrupted, he puts up a better fight than Fahrad, Nalice, or Hiram Creed.

[Le Conceptuel]

I'm not opposed to Sabellian, either; I think his character in TBC is great - and regardless of his ultimate role in Dragonflight it'll be nice to see him snark his way through a good quest-chain or two. I think it'll also be nice to give Wrathion a real challenge in the form of one of his Black dragon peers, especially since he more or less steamrolled over most of the others when he was solidifying his grasp on power and building the Fangs of the Father to attempt to slay Deathwing. I'm hoping that if Sabellian does turn out to be evil and/or still corrupted, he puts up a better fight than Fahrad, Nalice, or Hiram Creed.

Certainly—Sabellian certainly doesn't deserve the villain bat, that's for sure. I think that he's a fascinating character for, ultimately, the opposite reason why Wrathion is an interesting character. There's a sense of awe and mystery, an alien nature that, despite his seniority over Wrathion, makes him a more enigmatic figure than somebody we know everything about—literally everything about. Despite Sabellian holding technical seniority, his dynamic with Wrathion is that of a new, untested figure who serves as a near-blank slate in his capacity in opposition to somebody who has been tried-and-true since Cataclysm and who we've seen the whole arc and history of. (That's in the Doylist, but there's shades of that in the Watsonian, too—a mysterious new figure who holds seniority in years yet is more unknown).

I think the reason Sabellian has me excited is simply because he's a blend of the old and the new in what I think is an appealing fashion. He's both a character that we have some nostalgia for, having always fostered some degree of speculation, and a character that can be further elucidated upon as the writers see fit—somebody that feels far more traditionally WarCraft, too. I think he's simply a fun new character that I want to see get some good development and be put to good use in some capacity or another. Even if he isn't Aspect, I'm hoping he gets to have his own development and character arc.

Also, as an aside, it has occurred to me that one potential "compromise" solution is for Wrathion to instead step away from trying to lead the Black Dragonflight and potentially take the reins on a group he has more in common with—the Twilight Dragonflight. Ultimately, despite being a Black Dragon, he may have more to see of himself in a race that was bred in corruption. Of course, it's a fairly stupid idea at the end of the day, but it would be an interesting solution.

Were it up to me, I'd probably want Sabellian to lead the Black Dragonflight whereas Wrathion is humbled and concedes his claim, deciding that he's more suited to defend Azeroth in his own way. It would be an interesting end to his arc, though I suppose it would also undermine some development. I admit this is one of the few cases where (assuming they don't go the lazy route and Villain Bat Sabellian for Wrathion's benefit) a number of good endings for this arc exist. I am, all things considered, very excited to see where this goes.

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Despite Wrathion being more well know and relevant to current events...he is still a literal toddler and despite his intentions, did scheme to have either the Alliance or Horde destroy the other to unify Azeroth under 'one banner'. And then he later went on and caused the events of WoD and thus indirectly pave the way/allow the events for Legion and BFA to then happen. Besides helping us take down N'zoth, almost everything he's done up to that point has caused only untold amounts of death to the people of Azeroth.

Sabellian on the other hand is best bros with Rexxar and has been quietly working on trying to rebuild an uncorrupted flight. Sabellian I think is the best role as a leader for the Flight. Plus he's actually Deathwing's direct Heir. (Unlike Wrathion who is Deathwing's grandson technically despite calling him father all the time).

I feel like 'tying' Wrathion down with duties of leadership will be detrimental to his character. he's at his best when's he is a free agent, going off and doing his own things with his followers.

This here is roughly my opinion, too, summarized more adequately and concisely.

[Ielenia]

Right so. I've backed my claim up with a decent amount of in universe examples. You're only point has been there is a difference between open warfare and the skirmishs seen in wow. Which is A (note singular) good point then you've basically said nothing to support it beyond what you feel would happen.

Also just checking do you now what a hypothetical is? Because I've REPETITIVELY SAID IF. The likelihood of it happening is irrelevant to the discussion.

Your whole point is irrelevant because my question wasn't predicating on the Alliance and the Horde somehow teaming up to fight the dragons (likely bringing one or more dragonflights to extinction during the war) just to put one dragon puppet as the leader of one of the dragonflights.

It's a completely nonsensical idea to think that the Alliance and the Horde would band together and risk so much just to force all the dragonflights to accept a political puppet as a leader of one of the dragonflights. It's a war that, even if the factions won-- which I don't think they would, but for the sake of argument-- they would win nothing, because the dragons would likely end up extinct because I believe they wouldn't submit, considering the usual arrogance of dragons. It would be, at best, a pyrrhic victory for the factions, where they would lose so much more than they would win.

The entire argument is what the dragons want don't matter should the mortals press the issue.

And your argument is irrelevant, because that is not going to happen in this expansion; and because I don't believe the dragons would lose that war. Especially since other groups would join the dragon's side, as I imagine many druids (if not all of them) would be by the green dragonflight's side. Tyrande and Malfurion and most of the night elves might also join the dragons.

[Le Conceptuel]

It's a completely nonsensical idea to think that the Alliance and the Horde would band together and risk so much just to force all the dragonflights to accept a political puppet as a leader of one of the dragonflights. It's a war that, even if the factions won-- which I don't think they would, but for the sake of argument-- they would win nothing, because the dragons would likely end up extinct because I believe they wouldn't submit, considering the usual arrogance of dragons. It would be, at best, a pyrrhic victory for the factions, where they would lose so much more than they would win.

You know, here's a proper tinfoil—what if the reason for the schism is to make the Black Dragonflight split between an Alliance- and Horde-sympathetic leader? Admittedly, we've no reason to believe that Sabellian has any sympathy for the Horde, but we do know that Wrathion has strong Alliance sympathies, or at least prefers them somewhat. This was a long time ago, too, so this all has very iffy grounding, but it's just tickling my fancy. It's a very terrible idea and makes little sense, but I simply had to express that it was there.

[Wonderment2]

Your whole point is irrelevant because my question wasn't predicating on the Alliance and the Horde somehow teaming up to fight the dragons (likely bringing one or more dragonflights to extinction during the war) just to put one dragon puppet as the leader of one of the dragonflights.

It's a completely nonsensical idea to think that the Alliance and the Horde would band together and risk so much just to force all the dragonflights to accept a political puppet as a leader of one of the dragonflights. It's a war that, even if the factions won-- which I don't think they would, but for the sake of argument-- they would win nothing, because the dragons would likely end up extinct because I believe they wouldn't submit, considering the usual arrogance of dragons. It would be, at best, a pyrrhic victory for the factions, where they would lose so much more than they would win.


And your argument is irrelevant, because that is not going to happen in this expansion; and because I don't believe the dragons would lose that war. Especially since other groups would join the dragon's side, as I imagine many druids (if not all of them) would be by the green dragonflight's side. Tyrande and Malfurion and most of the night elves might also join the dragons.

The fact it's unrealistic is why I'm arguing it as a hypothetical and not a prediction for the plot.....

Lore shows killing dragons isn't all that a special feat (many who aren't the Champions of Azeroth have done it). Lore has shown killing aspects is perfectly possible when thier outnumbered. Lore has shown dragons are entirely incapable of preventing mortals assulting their bases and hatcherys.

Also, if you think my argument (and premise) is irrelevant probably shouldn't have engaged with it then.....

[Volardelis]

The flight has been corrupted since War of the Ancients, so if he had been cultivating uncorrupted eggs for some part of that, he could have been "rebuilding it for a millenia".

Saying that, we suddenly have an uncorrupted Black Dragon bargain sale. During Cataclysm it was only Wrathion that was uncorrupted. Then in Legion we got Ebonhorn who was born away from the rets of the Flight shortly after their corruption so he also could be uncorrupted, but now we suddenly have truckload of uncorrupted Black Dragons with Sabellian.

tbf any black dragons born on Draenor / Outland would've grown up without having N'zoth screaming into their ears. Sabellion even seems like a chill enough dude and he has only been away from the Old Gods for about 20ish years by the time of TBC. Rexxar considers him a friend, even if Rexxar doesn't know Sabellions true form. You also see some black dragon whelps sending messages between Sabellion and his ambassador to the Cenarion Expedition. As they are both against the Wyrmcult.

Although I am curious as to how and why Obsidia returned in Cata. As she was one of the four black dragons you could kill for the Skyguard / Ogri'la stuff. We know that Sinestra was on Outland hoping to reclaim what Black Dragons she could while also studying the Nether Drakes. Which she would use to create the Twilight Dragonflight as seen in Night of the Dragon & The Blackrock Caverns dungeon.

[Kyphael]

It should be Ebonhorn, but it'll be Wrathion.

I see Blizzard is at the point of combing through obscure NPC's from past expansions to fill in roles in the story after throwing the main characters into the woodchipper the last 12 years.

[Ielenia]

The fact it's unrealistic is why I'm arguing it as a hypothetical and not a prediction for the plot.....

And it's a complete departure of my original statement. Since we're not going to be fighting the dragons to force our choices over their own, then your hypothesis is meaningless.

[Wonderment2]

And it's a complete departure of my original statement. Since we're not going to be fighting the dragons to force our choices over their own, then your hypothesis is meaningless.

Yeah but not from my original argument?

Which is "mortals are in a position of strength over dragons"

It's meaningless to you, maybe (you did keep in replying trying to disprove it though). I don't mind discussing between mortals and dragons who would win in a total war.

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The weaker nations weren't also conquered . Also I literally said the Horde and Allaince COULD not WOULD enforce the champions choice.

At this point the mortals are in a position of strength over what's left of the dragons.

Looky here. I'm staying it as a hypothetical all the way back then....

[Le Conceptuel]

It should be Ebonhorn, but it'll be Wrathion.

I see Blizzard is at the point of combing through obscure NPC's from past expansions to fill in roles in the story after throwing the main characters into the woodchipper the last 12 years.

I honestly think Sabellian is a very good choice. He was a loose thread that people have always speculated about, so it's a good way to tie up some old story threads.

[Kyphael]

I honestly think Sabellian is a very good choice. He was a loose thread that people have always speculated about, so it's a good way to tie up some old story threads.

I'm all for promoting supporting characters to main cast with proper development if it's a prime opportunity, but I have a feeling Wrathion's status as the chosen one, and his plot armor means the only role Sabellian will get to play is butthurt turncoat villain after Wrathion gets his official coronation.

"It should have been me! Nyaaaargh!"

By which point adventurers storm his raid as he turns into a dragon, breathes fire on them and gets stabbed and blasted to death until he gets his pants looted and then professes his regrets in his final breath, claiming he only wanted the good for his flight. Wrathion forgives him and is a better leader for it.

[qwerty123456]

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Edit: or maybe Blizzard is setting the stage for "evil" dragonflights counterparts? 5 versus 5?

There is going to be an "evil" dragonflight. They are elemental protodrakes called primalists or something. There's only 4 though.

[Wonderment2]

There is going to be an "evil" dragonflight. They are elemental protodrakes called primalists or something. There's only 4 though.

Infinite Dragonflight also seem to play a role as well somewhere.

[Aurabolt]

It is worth noting that Wrathion did go to AU Draenor and was aware of everything that was going on there in regards to Garrosh and the Iron horde. He basically kept to the shadows to observe, planning on using whichever force won the war on Draenor to fight the Legion.

After the fact, not from the beginning. Plus, he had to know the Iron Horde was going lose when the Alliance and Horde forces crossed into Draenor. The Alliance forces lost Maraad (died outside Shattrath City), Thrall lost his powers as a Shaman and the Legion got a new Gul'dan.

If Wrathion crossed over with Kairoz and Garrosh, the outcome might have been a little different. At the very least, Kairoz wouldn't have been killed by Garrosh.

[Ielenia]

Yeah but not from my original argument?

Which is "mortals are in a position of strength over dragons"

Which is a hypothetical I don't accept, as I mentioned multiple times, because I don't believe mortals are in any position to demand or have the strength for an all-out war with all the dragons.

And it doesn't answer the question of "why would dragons simply accept a 'political puppet' leading one of the dragonflights", which was asked in the context of the expansion we're getting.

[Villager720]

Infinite Dragonflight also seem to play a role as well somewhere.

And there’s a suspicious white banner alongside the other 5 in the Aspects meeting hall.

[Wonderment2]

Which is a hypothetical I don't accept, as I mentioned multiple times, because I don't believe mortals are in any position to demand or have the strength for an all-out war with all the dragons.

And it doesn't answer the question of "why would dragons simply accept a 'political puppet' leading one of the dragonflights", which was asked in the context of the expansion we're getting.

Right you disagree with the premise. Cool we can debate it. Don't start complaining it's "meaningless" many posts deep...

It does answer the question. Why would the dragon accept a mortal chosen leader? Because the mortals can, if they wanted, wipe dragons off the face of the planet. Probably not gonna play a part in the expansion but still.

[Ielenia]

Because the mortals can,

No, they can't. I already stated I reject that premise. And again, the question was asked in the context of the expansion, in which we work alongside the dragonflights, and not fight against them, so there is no "forcing" anything.

[Chickat]

I would like to see a mentoring and sacrificing for the next generation storyline. Eventually they warm up to each other and Sab kinda mentors Wrathion for a bit. At some point Sab sacrifices himself to save Wrathion and says the future of the black is now in the hands of a new generation.

[Dellis0991]

I had to giggle a little bit at the folks who don't know Sabellian is. I guess he got tired of sitting on his ass in Outland.