[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Rocksteady 87]

I don't understand the people saying things like "aren't you bored with these movies yet" and whatnot. Comic books have been around for about a century now, and their ancient predecessors (stories of gods and other supernatural beings) have been around since man first started to speak.

If humankind hasn't gotten bored with those stories in all that time, chances are it's not going to happen any time soon either.

[VMSmith]

"Ms. Marvel #1 was a critical and commercial hit, earning high marks from reviewers while going into seven printings; the demand for the issue was so high, it required Marvel to create more comic books seven times over to keep up."

I just want to point out the number of printings means nothing as regards copies sold. A book with a low print run because of uncertainty in how well it will sell that then becomes in-demand can have a large number of printings while still selling few copies.

Ms. Marvel #1 in 2014 was the 106th best-selling book of the year, with about 75.3k units sold. That's just the one issue, the number one (i.e. the most in-demand). I don't know about the rest of that series. edit: issue #2 was was the 412th best-selling book of that year. No other issue broke the top 500.

It's also worth pointing out that a book can become highly in-demand simply because of speculation, rather than actual popularity. Given a very-different-than-usual character it's quite likely that there was a lot of speculation on this book.

The fact is that there have been multiple series of Ms. Marvel, the longest-running only making it to issue #38. I know that Marvel and DC like to restart and renumber books to create a sense of "newness", but she's had at least four ongoing books she's appeared in since her introduction. I think she's an interesting character, but I would not assert that she sells comics very well.

[Endus]

I just want to point out the number of printings means nothing as regards copies sold. A book with a low print run because of uncertainty in how well it will sell that then becomes in-demand can have a large number of printings while still selling few copies.

Ms. Marvel #1 in 2014 was the 106th best-selling book of the year, with about 75.3k units sold. That's just the one issue, the number one (i.e. the most in-demand). I don't know about the rest of that series. edit: issue #2 was was the 412th best-selling book of that year. No other issue broke the top 500.

It's also worth pointing out that a book can become highly in-demand simply because of speculation, rather than actual popularity. Given a very-different-than-usual character it's quite likely that there was a lot of speculation on this book.

The fact is that there have been multiple series of Ms. Marvel, the longest-running only making it to issue #38. I know that Marvel and DC like to restart and renumber books to create a sense of "newness", but she's had at least four ongoing books she's appeared in since her introduction. I think she's an interesting character, but I would not assert that she sells comics very well.

The number are super-hard to get a real handle on, because those print figures don't include digital sales and everything I could find said Ms. MArvel was dominating in digital sales, but not giving hard figures. Half a million trade paperbacks ain't nothing, though.

[Jastall]

Pretty much. Anyone arguing against "Wokeness" is just a far-right bigoted troll.



I'm of the opinion that the choice to have Phase 4 deal with the aftermath and trauma of Infinity War/Endgame was a smart decision. Jumping right from Thanos into the next big threat without any gap would have been exhausting, and it would have felt like Marvel was just constantly trying to one-up themselves to keep the tensions high. Stepping back and taking a breather and tying off some loose bits of trauma's practically refreshing.

The fleshing out was decent even if not enough for me, but I really wasn't a fan of all the multiverse shenanigans. I know that it's inevitable if you're setting up stuff like Secret Wars, but IMO they went too hard too quickly. Felt like most movies since Endgame (including it to an extent) dealt with a multiverse of some description. Shang Chi was my favorite of phase 4 so far and it feels like the fact that it's a self-contained story unburdened by such things helped it a lot.

I'm sure it'll be worth it in the end, but for now for me the MCU is in a lull more than anything in terms of enjoyment. It's not at Iron Man 2/3 and Thor 2 level of just bad, but it's kinda there until something rekindles my interest.

[VMSmith]

The number are super-hard to get a real handle on, because those print figures don't include digital sales and everything I could find said Ms. MArvel was dominating in digital sales, but not giving hard figures. Half a million trade paperbacks ain't nothing, though.

Again, you leave out details that paint a more accurate picture.

That 500k TPB's is for the entire run, composed of multiple trades, over 8 years. Nine trades, to be specific. And that number will be slanted towards the first volume, as this article mentions. Going back to your article, we find that in 2014, when these books were released, the Ms. Marvel TPB was the 40th best-selling trade of the year at 11.5k units, beating out an Avatar the Airbender TPB by exactly one unit sold.

I won't argue that her digital presence may be greater, because I don't know if those numbers are even available anywhere so we can't tell other than the assertion that she does sell well digitally. My article does state that she sells as well digitally as she does in paper, but how good that is today when digital sales are rapidly increasing we have no way of knowing. I wouldn't be surprised, however, at her initial good digital numbers because, as a new and diverse character she is much more likely to appeal to people who prefer to buy their comics digitally than in paper. But that's just IMO.

I'm not saying Kamala isn't a good or needed character, I think she's both and I'm glad she exists to appeal to the audience that wants a character like her. But I do think she's niche and despite flowery language the actual numbers seem to support that. She's a character that Marvel is trying desperately to make into a "thing", and failing IMO.

[Syegfryed]

I don't understand the people saying things like "aren't you bored with these movies yet" and whatnot. Comic books have been around for about a century now, and their ancient predecessors (stories of gods and other supernatural beings) have been around since man first started to speak.

If humankind hasn't gotten bored with those stories in all that time, chances are it's not going to happen any time soon either.

Especially when there is so many stories they didn't told yet


I understand it can get stagnated for a bit, especially when the last movies were not that great, but still is an enjoyable activity.

[Ivanstone]

I'm not saying Kamala isn't a good or needed character, I think she's both and I'm glad she exists to appeal to the audience that wants a character like her. But I do think she's niche and despite flowery language the actual numbers seem to support that. She's a character that Marvel is trying desperately to make into a "thing", and failing IMO.

Maybe you should compare her to other characters.
Carol Danvers and She-Hulk have been running semi-consistently since the 70s. Is she doing as well as them? Probably.
She’s had more success as a solo title than the majority of X-men characters.
Periodically, I get people asking about Scarlet Witch comics. I tell them every time Marvel tries to put one out of her, it almost immediately face plants. Is Ms Marvel more successful than Scarlet Witch?

It’s like your expecting A-Tier success but that describes very few characters. Meanwhile Ms Marvel comics sell ok. Good enough to take a shot at publishing.

- - - Updated - - -

That one story, if no other, should put to bed the idea that wearing the suit and sharing similar powers makes you the same character.

One of my customers is a Captain America fan and he doesn’t mind when they goof around with the character but he very much prefers when it’s Steve Rogers.
So I asked him point blank if he’s a Steve Rogers fan or a Captain America fan. He said it’s the former.

Captain America, unlike most heroes, is a job as well as a persona. The person being Captain America is expected to behave in certain ways. There will be some overlapping traits. You can still find people who like Steve, Sam, John or Bucky.

Spider-man is more of a persona. You’ll find people who simply like seeing the spider people do spider people things although most of them are mainly Peter Parker fans. Some people prefer Miles. Or Gwen. Or Otto. Or even Eddie. I’m sure I could dig someone up who thought Mac was the best Spidey.

[VMSmith]

Maybe you should compare her to other characters.
Carol Danvers and She-Hulk have been running semi-consistently since the 70s. Is she doing as well as them? Probably.

Yes, this is actually what I'm saying. Ms Marvel, Kamala Khan, is a low-tier character that sells a low-tier number of books. Enough to take a stab at a possible breakout every now and then, but never with the expectation that she actually will breakout. Danvers and She-Hulk are and always have been niche characters, so I do find it appropriate to compare Kamala to them.

My argument has been that she's not been some wildly successful character, as was asserted:

Ms. Marvel #1 was a critical and commercial hit

No, she wasn't. She's a niche character that got a lot of attention when she launched because A) New characters almost always do good out of the gate, and B) Her characteristics are notably different than the typical superhero, drawing in new readers (the likely goal).

She’s had more success as a solo title than the majority of X-men characters.
Periodically, I get people asking about Scarlet Witch comics. I tell them every time Marvel tries to put one out of her, it almost immediately face plants. Is Ms Marvel more successful than Scarlet Witch?

I would have to do a lot more research than I'm interested in, but what I did discover is that outside of the first two issues of her first ongoing she has failed to break the top 500 in any year since. I'm not saying she's a flop, by any means, only that she's niche. Scarlet Witch is even more niche.

It’s like your expecting A-Tier success but that describes very few characters. Meanwhile Ms Marvel comics sell ok. Good enough to take a shot at publishing.

I've not said I expected that and your conclusions are exactly what I've been saying. She sells OK. Not great. Not enough to keep an ongoing going for more than a few years before the title peters out. I took issue with the characterization that she's commercially successful. She's not.

[Ivanstone]

Yes, this is actually what I'm saying. Ms Marvel, Kamala Khan, is a low-tier character that sells a low-tier number of books. Enough to take a stab at a possible breakout every now and then, but never with the expectation that she actually will breakout. Danvers and She-Hulk are and always have been niche characters, so I do find it appropriate to compare Kamala to them.

My argument has been that she's not been some wildly successful character, as was asserted:

No, she wasn't. She's a niche character that got a lot of attention when she launched because A) New characters almost always do good out of the gate, and B) Her characteristics are notably different than the typical superhero, drawing in new readers (the likely goal).



I would have to do a lot more research than I'm interested in, but what I did discover is that outside of the first two issues of her first ongoing she has failed to break the top 500 in any year since. I'm not saying she's a flop, by any means, only that she's niche. Scarlet Witch is even more niche.



I've not said I expected that and your conclusions are exactly what I've been saying. She sells OK. Not great. Not enough to keep an ongoing going for more than a few years before the title peters out. I took issue with the characterization that she's commercially successful. She's not.

She’s commercially successful. Unsuccessful characters do not get as much work.

You keep bringing up this top 500. A list that will be dominated by Batman and Spider-man comics. It’s not a meaningful metric.

Luke Cage is a commercially successful character. He currently doesn’t have his own comic. He’s not in the Avengers at this moment. Ms Marvel has been around a very short period of time. The amount of traction she’s gotten is surprising especially since she’s not riding the coat-tails of a more popular character.

[Shadowferal]

One of my customers is a Captain America fan and he doesn’t mind when they goof around with the character but he very much prefers when it’s Steve Rogers. So I asked him point blank if he’s a Steve Rogers fan or a Captain America fan. He said it’s the former. .

If you can find a copy;

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I would have to do a lot more research than I'm interested in, but what I did discover is that outside of the first two issues of her first ongoing she has failed to break the top 500 in any year since. I'm not saying she's a flop, by any means, only that she's niche. Scarlet Witch is even more niche.

Thats not going to indicate much. ~200 comics in the top 500 of 2021 are #1's. Another 50 all have "Spider-Man" in the title somewhere. Then you add in theings like Star Wars, X-Men, Wolverine...and there really isn't a lot of room left in the top 500 for anything else.

Also, as mentioned earlier, it doesn't account for digital sales or things like a Marvel Unlimited Subscription.

[InfiniteCharger]

You missed the point so hard. There are a multitude of runs varying from 6-20 issues, spiderman wasn’t a failure every time a run didn’t go up to 100 issues a run Ending at 18 doesn’t mean they are a failure every single popular marvel character has had 18 or shorter issue runs.

This is absurd logic at its finest. Spiderman was created and the first solo title sells 100 issues. Ms Marvel gets created and the first solo title sells less than 20. And somehow you call that "equally" successful or the desired outcome? Seriously? This is basically trolling because it defies logic. The point of making new characters and giving them solo titles is to have them sell as many issues as possible. And the number of issues is determined by popularity. If the comic isn't selling then the title will be cancelled. But according to you, a character with less than 100 total issues over multiple titles, most of which have been cancelled is somehow also a success, similar to Spiderman. That doesn't even make sense. Yes all titles aren't going to sell 100 issues but those are typically limited series. And Spiderman at one point had upwards of 5 separate titles being published every month. Some of those titles having far less than 100 issues, but that is no comparison to the publication history of Ms Marvel. Keep in mind that technically the first version of Ms Marvel was Carol Danvers who was also not popular before being rebooted as Kamala Khan Ms Marvel. So technically Kamala Khan as Ms Marvel has had 3 volumes of a solo title all of which are ended: Ms Marvel Vol 3, Ms Marvel Vol 4 and Magnificent Ms Marvel Vol 1.

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Categ...el_Comic_Books

[Shadowferal]

Spider-Man was Marvel's best selling character. I've lost track at how many titles there were, but I think there were 5 titles running concurrently in the 80s. (I only kept up with "Marvel Team-up")

[InfiniteCharger]

I don't know ,maybe .....because you are replying to me? Do you find that a plausible reason?.

lol



No ,you don't . You still don't get the point because after 3 posts I'm still waiting for a reason about the decades of non-forced diversity that did not spawn that magical new characters that could outsell Batman just by not giving creators guidelines about diversity. Maybe there's another reasons: maybe the crushing weight of legacy is a mount too big to climb and this has nothing to with diversity.



No, you don't. You need significative changes in the narrative plane. Make Miles Morales have the exact the same backstory of Peter Parker with the only change of his skin color and you fall down the abyss and about ALL the changes you can make skin (that is the only thing you seen worry about) is by far the less relevant.If there's not a racial context in the character the color of the skin is as relevant as the color of the eyes.

And yet you scream: Why is Miles black...???!!! so I say...more than asking why is he black the question is: why do you care? How does being black diminishes the character of make it worse?



Sorry, are you talking to me or to the people of the vids that you linked? Because I have a strict policy of defending my arguments not other's people. I understand that you are having multiple discussions at once and there's a trend to think that if multiple people disagree with you that means they agree with each other but please focus.

I have zero problems with those old white men and their creations. They did it so fucking good that precisely my whole discussion with you is that I claim that "derivative of a great character > new character" and you claim , with no proof despite my repeatedly insistence in you providing some , the reason of that is a "woke agenda" that constrict creative freedom and without that agenda we could have original characters that would kick Superman ass.

That is the thing that is actually absurdly stupid.

I thought you were done? Apparently you just like hearing yourself talk and cannot stand the idea that other people have different views than you.
Not to mention you are trying to change this whole discussion with talking points that you made up that are irrelevant.

Miles Morales exists in the multiverse which means he is literally another version of Spiderman, that just so happens to have a different skin color. That literally is part of how this character was created. The fact that you would sit here and argue otherwise is the problem. The idea of a person being bit by a radioactive spider and having powers of a spider is not "new". However, because Spiderverse is popular, there are many more versions of spiderman being created. You are just lying to yourself if you actually believe this literally isn't just a copy and paste, because it is and the artists who created the multiverse themselves said so.

However, DC used the multiverse for the purpose of rebooting the comics and making changes to various characters. While Marvel used the multiverse to expand the opportunity for artists to experiment with different versions of characters without affecting the main universe.

https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/do...ics-marvel-dc/

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...r-david-thorpe

It is not creativity and most of those alternate versions aren't even well known or have become members of the main universe, except for Miles Morales and a few others. Which proves that copy and paste FAILS to create any popular characters disproving everything you are arguing. My point is that it is just easier to copy and paste than actually take the time to develop something actually new. And because comics today don't sell millions of issues like they used to in total, they don't have the money to invest in creating, developing and promoting new characters....

Beyond that the creation of Miles Morales was a unique situation, because the Spiderverse itself revolves around a bunch of different versions of Spiderman who get to know each other and often team up. Miles is just the most popular of that group, but they are still adding new versions, with a new one called Spiderman UK. But none of these versions is as popular as the original Spiderman.:

Marvel

Ready for his close-up: The new Spider-Man swings into action against a bad guy in Ultimate Comics Fallout #4.

A year ago, Community star Donald Glover embarked on a Twitter campaign to play an African-American version of Spider-Man in a new movie (a role that went to white actor Andrew Garfield for next summer's The Amazing Spider-Man). As an inside joke, he appeared on the season premiere in Spider-Man pajamas.

"He looked fantastic!" Bendis recalls. "I saw him in the costume and thought, 'I would like to read that book.' So I was glad I was writing that book."

The writer gives Glover "mucho credit" for the way Miles Morales looks in Ultimate Fallout issue 4, which is out Wednesday and marks the first appearance of a new Spider-Man. His adventures will continue in September's Ultimate Spider-Man No. 1, written by Bendis and illustrated by Sara Pichelli.

More than a year ago, a Marvel Comics brain trust decided that, at least in the Ultimate Universe, Peter Parker needed to die, in a battle with the Green Goblin. When they began to think about whom they'd put under the new mask, a multicultural vibe emerged.

"It's certainly long overdue," Bendis says. "Even though there's some amazing African-American and minority characters bouncing around in all the superhero universes, it's still crazy lopsided."

Marvel comics have been populated with many minority heroes over the years, from Luke Cage to War Machine to the Black Panther, many of whom have starred in their own books. And several men of varying skin color have wielded Captain America's shield and worn Iron Man's armor.

But only Peter Parker ever crawled on walls and strapped on web shooters as Marvel's signature superhero. So to put an African American under that mask probably is going to pack more of a cultural punch than simply creating a new minority superhero.

Race may have been a question had Peter Parker been African American when Stan Lee and Steve Ditko created Spider-Man in 1962. But now, minorities play a bigger role in society. So Bendis says that if fans have a beef, it will be with the fact that the new Spider-Man is not Peter Parker, not his replacement's skin tone. "Some will perceive that (Parker) had to die to make this happen, which is not the case," he says. "This character carries on the legacy of Peter Parker, a Spider-Man who will have a completely different relationship to the world."

The creation of Miles Morales, a teenager with an African-American father and Hispanic mother, has been personal for his creators. Axel Alonso, Marvel's editor in chief, is of mixed cultures (his father is Mexican, his mother is British), and Bendis has two adopted daughters, a 3½-year-old from Ethiopia and a 4½-month-old African American.

"Wouldn't it be nice for them to have a character or a hero that speaks to them as much as Peter Parker has spoken to so many children?" Bendis says. "There's nothing wrong with that, and I think we need more of it."

https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life...n-inside_n.htm

Origin of Spider Verse:

https://www.cbr.com/dan-slott-spider-verse-history/

Latest Spider UK Variant:

https://www.gamesradar.com/meet-the-...pider-verse-2/

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And somehow you call that "equally" successful or the desired outcome?

No one has called them "equally successful" this is just more of your miss understanding and missing the point.

[VMSmith]

She’s commercially successful. Unsuccessful characters do not get as much work.

You keep bringing up this top 500. A list that will be dominated by Batman and Spider-man comics. It’s not a meaningful metric.

Thats not going to indicate much. ~200 comics in the top 500 of 2021 are #1's. Another 50 all have "Spider-Man" in the title somewhere. Then you add in theings like Star Wars, X-Men, Wolverine...and there really isn't a lot of room left in the top 500 for anything else.

Ms Marvel #1, the best selling Ms Marvel print comic, ranked #24 in the month it was printed. It was beaten by Forever Evil, Justice League, Fantastic Four #1, some Walking Dead issues, Harley Quinn #3, Avengers, and yes, the gamut of X-Men and Wolverine and Punisher and whatnot. But, that's her best-selling issue ever and it's coming in at the tail end of the "popular" books.

In the next month her book dropped to #42 and lost about 30% in sales. It was beaten by Captain Marvel, Ghost Rider, and Silver Surfer. All solid B-tier characters, but within a month she had dropped into the top of the B-tier.

Issue #3 came in at #55, being beaten by an Image book called Southern Bastards, a Firefly adaptation and Moon Knight.

Issue #6 managed to finish at #86. She fell behind Batgirl, Wonder Woman, New 52, Doctor Who, Earth 2, Storm, Life with Archie, New Suicide Squad, Star Lord (who saw a bump thanks to the movie)

Issue #7 was the first issue to not chart in the top 100 for that month completely. Subsequent issues would sometimes chart in the 70-90s, but the sales for these books were all under 30k copies each.

Which all is exactly what I said, she is a minor, niche character. She is outsold by Moon Knight when they both have a book going. I don't deny that her first issue was fairly big, I specifically said it was and why. But she hasn't had any staying power, going by the actual numbers that are available. You can keep handwaving "but they say she does great in digital!" but they have also said that she was selling as much in digital as she did in print ... when she first came out! Which is to be expected of a new character. And the fact that she can't support neither her own ongoing book nor a team-book with Miles (who is much more popular) speaks for itself.

Luke Cage is a commercially successful character.

Look, you may like him but this is nonsense and you know it.

eta: Ms Marvel does have an Infinity comic going in Unlimited, while she does not have any ongoing book right now. "Commercially successful" characters do not ride the pine like this.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

And the fact that she can't support neither her own ongoing book nor a team-book with Miles (who is much more popular) speaks for itself.

Dude, Ms. Marvel has constantly had her own title since 2014.

https://www.marvel.com/comics/series...el_2014_-_2015
https://www.marvel.com/comics/series...el_2015_-_2019
https://www.marvel.com/comics/series...ms_marvel_2019
https://www.marvel.com/comics/series...it_2021_-_2022

[VMSmith]

Dude, Ms. Marvel has constantly had her own title since 2014.

https://www.marvel.com/comics/series...el_2014_-_2015
https://www.marvel.com/comics/series...el_2015_-_2019
https://www.marvel.com/comics/series...ms_marvel_2019
https://www.marvel.com/comics/series...it_2021_-_2022

Gee, I don't know how to break this to you but there are months that exist between February and December.

Also, four ongoing and three team books in 8 years is not a good look. That's seven series that she's headlined and six of them have been canceled. Constant doesn't mean popular nor sells well, just that they keep throwing the dart at the board hoping to hit a bullseye with her.

I don't understand why some people just can't accept that she's a niche character right now and always has been. There's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't make her a bad character. It just means that most people aren't interested in her. Most people aren't interested in the Legion of Super-Heroes in the slightest but that doesn't stop it from being my favorite comic of all time. I can love it without requiring everyone else to love it and recognize that it's one of the greatest comics ever written.

And maybe Kamala will become a big-time character in the future, but perhaps she won't. Carol Danvers took decades to get even slightly popular, when I started reading comics she was most well-known for being Rogue's saddest victim. And even with a hit movie and Marvel pushing her as much as possible she's still a lower-tier seller, not cracking 30k as well.

eta Thinking about it, I do maybe understand why some people can't accept the fact that Ms Marvel is niche. It's because they hold her up as a paragon of "this is what people really want!" and they can't accept that this is not the case. I'm sorry for you that wishing something were true doesn't work.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Dude, Ms. Marvel has constantly had her own title since 2014.

Some people seem to think that not having a solo series going for a few months or getting new 1#’S every couple years means the character has failed, even through every single marvel character baring spider man falls into that category even though he fits the new 1# half.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Gee, I don't know how to break this to you but there are months that exist between February and December.

Also, four ongoing and three team books in 8 years is not a good look. That's seven series that she's headlined and six of them have been canceled. Constant doesn't mean popular nor sells well, just that they keep throwing the dart at the board hoping to hit a bullseye with her.

Tell me you know nothing about comics without telling me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...eam_continuity

(vol. 3) #1–18 (April 2014 – August 2015)
(vol. 4) #1–32, #789-801 (October 2015 – June 2018)
(vol. 5) #1–93 (July 2018 – March 2022). Also includes issues numbered #16.HU, #18-20.HU, #50-54.LR, #78.BEY, #80.BEY, #88.BEY, #92.BEY
(vol. 6) #1-current (April 2022 - present)

The Amazing Spider-Man has also had 4 ongoing series in the same time period. They just keep on "cancelling" Peter Parker and hoping that the next dart hits the bullseye...

You'll find similar patterns appear with The Avengers, X-Men, Daredevil, etc.