KSM is too easy.

[Battlebeard]

Not even a single conherent thought.

First you compare World First raiding to the rest of the game, what the 0.00001% do, doesnt reflect the game, at all, nada, not even a little and does not reflect the average raider one bit.

Then you mention collectibles, like it somehow is an argument, you want them ?Go get them.

And then suddenly you want to raid log and do collectibles also, what exactly is it then, so you did your collectibles in Vanilla while raiding your Molten Core?

I really dont understand what your argument is, Vanilla and TBC had no collectibles cause they are from a period where "Gaming Achievements" didnt exist, and dont go telling me you dont like achievements now because of your signature.

Decide what narrative you wanna follow man, your arguments are over the place, its easier to admit you have no idea what you are talking about and you simply want Vanilla difficulty content cause there isnt any difficulty cause you cant keep up with the game and its OKAY to admit, thats why M+ goes from +2 to infinite, and not +10 and +20 so you can do the difficulty you can do.

Thats why its LFR-->Normal-->HC-->Mythic.

Okey, forget world first, Sepulcher is still the hardest raid ever. SoD is the 2nd hardest, difficulty is insane. Even normal sepulcher is harder than what Dragon Soul heroic, ICC heroic or SoO mythic was.

[Lolites]

Can get 100% BiS gear and achievements using only the credit card these days, difficulty of content and what it rewards is not even a conversation anymore.

what do you mean by "These days", you could buy boost since vanila...

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My only issue with M+ giving Mythic raid level gear is it forces progression raiders to do M+.

i would say motivates rather than forces, since you absolutely can clear mythic raid without ever entering m+, it would just take you while...
also m+ gives mythic gear only from vault (and ofc slowly from valor couple weeks later), which you can get also by raiding

[potis]

Okey, forget world first, Sepulcher is still the hardest raid ever. SoD is the 2nd hardest, difficulty is insane. Even normal sepulcher is harder than what Dragon Soul heroic, ICC heroic or SoO mythic was.

Who says? Normal was a joke, there was nothing wrong about it apart from weak players, maybe the silly Dreadlords fight that requires communication is over the top, the rest is retardadly easy.

Problem with WoW is people always complain, first time raid and gear were connected slightly after 3 expansions for the average player and everyone lose their shit, if raid was so impossible why did most guilds clear Normal the first raid as they always do?

[jeezusisacasual]

Would we be saying raiding is to easy if it could be reliably pugged with the same success? The thing is people have a small group of friends they want to play and all else be damned ( not all but most ), this is why clicks form in guilds or why you gravitate towards specific people and only seek them out. Until they fix the time commitment from raid " nights " i think it will continue to never hit the same metrics as mythic plus simply from the logistics side of things. 6 Itemlevels and limited item pool are not enough of an incentive for me to deal with the things that are not raiding the insane min/max attitude, people being cunts and massive gold sink in consumables compared to a handful of invis pots ( no one is poping dps pots under 20 like candy ).

[talmir]

( no one is poping dps pots under 20 like candy ).

Heh.. I am. I use pots, food, runes and oil for every single mythic I do. Might just me be though. I go through the stuff like candy. Gold is pretty easy to come by in-game so even doing this I havent felt much of a sting financially.

[jeezusisacasual]

Heh.. I am. I use pots, food, runes and oil for every single mythic I do. Might just me be though. I go through the stuff like candy. Gold is pretty easy to come by in-game so even doing this I havent felt much of a sting financially.

I use the rune if i get them from the tank bag and food is from mission tables but i was speaking mostly of the dps potions.

[talmir]

I use the rune if i get them from the tank bag and food is from mission tables but i was speaking mostly of the dps potions.

Yep. I use these things every time as I want to operate to the max of my characters capabilities. Just a personal choice. Currently every time I go into a mythic I have to go through the checklist to: Get steward pots, use my trinket on tank for buff, drink dps pot, use rune, use oil, eat food. 250 to 300g is fine for a hour long buff, honestly.

[Wewlad]

This point of view is one of the stupidest ones still kicking around today about WoW.

Do you feel this way when someone wins a car comparable to yours? Is your car devalued because someone else has one? How about if someone’s family helps them buy a house of the same value as yours? Are you insulted if someone has the same clothes, the same shoes? Someone else having the same book, or maybe winning a lottery to go the same musical as you, is insulting?

Who gives a flying fuck if someone else you don’t know, or will ever know (in real life, or in game), gets something that you have? How does that diminish the work you put in for what you have? Does that somehow magically erase the time you spent working for it? Do you genuinely believe anyone , aside from your in-game friends, actually gives a shit what gear you have? You’re not special, or cool, or an icon, a hero, a role model.

Stop worrying about what other people do or get in-game.

This is such a horrendous take. Of course someone who actually earned X is going to be miffed when someone who didn't put in the work get it as well. Not to mention that back in the day, high gear/status players were inspirations to the rest—myself included at the time—to better themselves.

"You’re not special, or cool, or an icon, a hero, a role model."

Save your condescension.

[anon5123]

This point of view is one of the stupidest ones still kicking around today about WoW.

Do you feel this way when someone wins a car comparable to yours? Is your car devalued because someone else has one? How about if someone’s family helps them buy a house of the same value as yours? Are you insulted if someone has the same clothes, the same shoes? Someone else having the same book, or maybe winning a lottery to go the same musical as you, is insulting?

Who gives a flying fuck if someone else you don’t know, or will ever know (in real life, or in game), gets something that you have? How does that diminish the work you put in for what you have? Does that somehow magically erase the time you spent working for it? Do you genuinely believe anyone , aside from your in-game friends, actually gives a shit what gear you have? You’re not special, or cool, or an icon, a hero, a role model.

Stop worrying about what other people do or get in-game.

You wrote up a giant textwall that ignores the point he was making

his point is not "wahh other people have things I have", his point is that casual 5man content rewards the same gear as the hardest raids in the game.

A more apt comparison is working a highly technical job and being paid the same as someone who flips burgers.

[Dakara]

Only last 3 bosses. The issue though isn't really the ilvl cap, it's the disparity in availability and it depends on multiple factors.

On one side m+ is easier than mythic raids (talking about up to 15s obviously) and it gives you way better rewards compared to normal or hc, rendering obsolete anything that's not mythic raids.

On the other, it's a structure problem. M+ are highly accessible, easily puggable and repeatable how many times you want. Raids require an organized group and pugging them is generally harder, have a weekly lockout and take much more time in a single session than a m+.

So it's pretty obvious to see where people is going to get their gear. I am willingly ignoring all the particular cases like op trinket or weapons sonilvl doesn't count as much and the fact that if you really want to minmax you're going to do both anyway.

It's a pretty convoluted scenario. Normal and hc raids that are meant more for casual/relaxed groups are actually much less relevant for them because the can access better gear from somewhere else in a more consistent way. If you're a mythic raider this doesn't really apply since normal/hc are just on the path to your real goals and as said before, the mythic rewards are mostly fine (though i would set them higher because of the effort required to mantain and organize a mythic raiding group)

Honestly I think the whole endgame hamster wheel is a mess.
If M+ rewards are nerfed, top key pushers (which I am not) will be required to raid Mythic to compete.
If rewards stay as they are, normal/heroic are redundant in terms of gearing.
If item levels scale in the content they were rewarded (like PvP) gear, we’ll all be carrying 3 sets of gear again (or more).

It took me a long time to warm up to M+
As a D3 player, I really like the concept when it was pitched in Legion… wasn’t until late BFA that I got over what it did to raiding and started to enjoy keys.

Today, at 40 years young with multiple commitments, many in the evenings after work, M+ is now my endgame.

I don’t know what the answer, but nerfing content someone enjoys just because someone else doesn’t and feels “forced” to do it isn’t the answer. And for the average player, KSM isn’t as easy as some make it out to be.

If anything, I’d say CE is too hard rather than KSM being too easy and the Raid Vault could use some tweaking…. Maybe even an upgrade system for Normal/Heroic raid loot that encourages re clears.

[shise]

Difficulty should in no way take into account busywork and bookkeeping. If it is disrespectful to people who actually put in the time to work for their gear, the only people who should get gear from raids are the raid leader, and maybe another person to assist them. Everyone else is functionally a puppet, and M+ is harder in every other case besides the people organising.

If you want to raid with 19 other people, you go do that, but you shouldn't get rewarded for it because it's hard to find 19 other people on earth who want to go through that tedium.

Raids are a holdover of a past time in MMOs, that is the only reason they still hold their position as king dick of PvE; not because they are better in any other way that isn't subjective.

Sorry but no, you are wrong.

Raids should remain the top gear content. M+, first of all, is a joke. Half of the people are buying boosts if not more... So you have people literally buying the higest level loot. Besides, M+ is a casual scheduled, flexible thing. Raids are a commitment, ofc it should be highly rewarded...

Man, this game and some of its players is turning into an absolute joke. People create characters, pay to boost level them, then pay for tokens to buy the best gear possible to be accepted into higher content which they also buy... So, essencially people are paying a game and then they are paying to skip it all.

Gaming is doomed. Glad I was there when it mattered I guess :/

[h4rr0d]

Ever since mythic raiding became “this is the exact thing everyone has to do for ~15 minutes and if no one fucks up, we win”, it stopped being difficult and instead became a waiting game. Waiting for every single one of 20 people to perform a script flawlessly. Mythic raiding is difficult for the world 1st crowd and the people managing the logistics for each raid. Everyone else just has to read up on a script, show up and and follow said script. Epitome of this was M N’Zoth.

[Coldkil]

Honestly I think the whole endgame hamster wheel is a mess.
If M+ rewards are nerfed, top key pushers (which I am not) will be required to raid Mythic to compete.
If rewards stay as they are, normal/heroic are redundant in terms of gearing.
If item levels scale in the content they were rewarded (like PvP) gear, we’ll all be carrying 3 sets of gear again (or more).

It took me a long time to warm up to M+
As a D3 player, I really like the concept when it was pitched in Legion… wasn’t until late BFA that I got over what it did to raiding and started to enjoy keys.

Today, at 40 years young with multiple commitments, many in the evenings after work, M+ is now my endgame.

I don’t know what the answer, but nerfing content someone enjoys just because someone else doesn’t and feels “forced” to do it isn’t the answer. And for the average player, KSM isn’t as easy as some make it out to be.

If anything, I’d say CE is too hard rather than KSM being too easy and the Raid Vault could use some tweaking…. Maybe even an upgrade system for Normal/Heroic raid loot that encourages re clears.

I think PvP is fine and works well. The issue is that M+ and raids are considered just two activities of the same PvE sphere thus they interact with each other. In the end, people is already "forced" to do both activities because of special weapons and trinkets that are useful in both areas - in some cases the improvement is pretty substantial so people will do it anyway.

There are plenty of people who are just fine with this, and it goes from the very top of the players to the casual mass, so it's not really an issue until you really dislike either one of the content format. Personally, i disliked M+ when i understood how much they invalidated the raid progression, now i'm pretty neutral about them because i use them as a tool and nothing more, which i'm fine with.

KSM is fine, CE i think also is fine. It's not like everyone needs to be able to do everything, much like in Vanilla or TBC you didn't necessarily clear the whole raids if your guild wasn't up to par. It's really a "modern WoW" issue where everyone feels the game should be designed around their own tastes and time schedules.

Again, the issue as i see it lies on the fact that the "casual/easier" progression path in raids which should be targeting the casual crowd is actually rendered useless my similar in difficulty but much more accessible and rewarding M+ system. The only real solution is to either merge the loot tables or completely separate them, but they would bring much more complications to what it is now.

Raids are in need of a structure rework, but again, it's pretty hard. They should be not on a weekly lockout, or basically be much shorter in terms of time wasted in trash, buffing, corpse running, etc. One of the great M+ positives is that you literally just click a queue button and get straight into action, and in 20/30 minutes you're out.

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So, essentially people are paying a game and then they are paying to skip it all.

People are just now used to the fact they have to do everything as fast as possible so they can jump onto the next new thing and cram as many games as possible in the shortest time window. Publishers are just masters at exploiting the weaknesses of the general gaming crowd (insecurities, needs of external validation etc).

Until people stop spending on this stuff, it will keep going. But in the end just look at the mobile market, with its insane revenues and profits driven by literally a handful of players. They don't need anymore to make a good game or to appeal to a lot of people. Just need to hook in the heavy spenders and give them constant stimulus.

[potis]

Raids are in need of a structure rework, but again, it's pretty hard. They should be not on a weekly lockout, or basically be much shorter in terms of time wasted in trash, buffing, corpse running, etc. One of the great M+ positives is that you literally just click a queue button and get straight into action, and in 20/30 minutes you're out.

Its insane how refreshing it feels when you spawn exactly at the boss after a wipe, and you wonder why couldnt it be like this for the previous 9 bosses (Jailer).

Its insane how they dont get it at times, or i dont know, artificial lengthening or something is someting they believe still needs to exist to extend subscriptions.

[Coldkil]

Its insane how refreshing it feels when you spawn exactly at the boss after a wipe, and you wonder why couldnt it be like this for the previous 9 bosses (Jailer).

Its insane how they dont get it at times, or i dont know, artificial lengthening or something is someting they believe still needs to exist to extend subscriptions.

I think it's a mix of "legacy" raid design methods and the fact they really want to make raids majestic and make you feel you're entering a very important place of power. And generally they are able to do it pretty well - there are not many bad raids in WoW and even the bad ones are enjoyable in general.

Raids should be smaller in terms of dead times. You should have summoning stones inside before each boss (maybe on a side path with trash so warlocks are still useful to skip that) and respawn directly in the boss room, like the Jailer. Buffs all shouldn't expire on death when in raid, just needed to be renewed before expiration. And obviously much less trash and pathing - in M+ trash has value because you need to do it and it affects pathing/route, in raids they just pad the time spent in there.

It's all small stuff taken singularly, but adding all of this up makes for a lot of time spent in basically "not fighting the boss". I think wiping is not as bad even on a longer or more complex fight if you didn't have preparation time for each wipe.

[Lolites]

Of course someone who actually earned X is going to be miffed when someone who didn't put in the work get it as well.

speak for yourself, as long as its not taken FROM ME to give to someone who didnt work for it i couldnt care less he got it without the work...
if i actualy work for something i appreciate having it, someone else having it makes no difference for me, irl and even more so ingame, where everything i work for will be basicaly freely available to everyone sooner or later anyhow...

back in the day

dunno about you but we dont live "back in the day", we live in CURRENT reality

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Its insane how refreshing it feels when you spawn exactly at the boss after a wipe, and you wonder why couldnt it be like this for the previous 9 bosses (Jailer).

Its insane how they dont get it at times, or i dont know, artificial lengthening or something is someting they believe still needs to exist to extend subscriptions.

i personlay wouldnt really care, but we DID have raid without trash back in wrath, TOGC, it was not really popular, so probably thats why they dont try it again

[potis]

s
i personlay wouldnt really care, but we DID have raid without trash back in wrath, TOGC, it was not really popular, so probably thats why they dont try it again

Oh i know, but thats not what i meant, look at Sepulcher, there is no need for so many pointless packs at this age of WoW, 1-2 proper packs with semi-actual mechanics, like the knockback dudes that are always fun to watch someone fly, are okay, the extra 30 mobs are not, just pointless bullshit.

Generally TOGC is bad design, Sepulcher/N'zoth etc is bad design also, a fresh inbetween is whats needed, or no problem with the extra packs, but make something like the Night Fae spore in Mists, when clicked you respawn there per boss, having to run for 30 seconds and wait for others etc etc, so fucking annoying.

Sepulcher was the first time in 7 years that i refused to reclear since the Tier Sets were given from outside, no point, and 90% of the reason was the size of the raid, we raid depending on mood a maximum of 2 hours, 2 times per week, cause people are late, i get annoyed at wiping at dumb shit, we always end early, so averagely we raid anywhere from 2 to 4 hours per week, having to waste 1 hour just for the trash/travelling to bosses, is ANNOYING.

[Lolites]

Oh i know, but thats not what i meant, look at Sepulcher, there is no need for so many pointless packs at this age of WoW, 1-2 proper packs with semi-actual mechanics, like the knockback dudes that are always fun to watch someone fly, are okay, the extra 30 mobs are not, just pointless bullshit.

yeah that would probably be best, less trash just more impactful, "miniboss" trash with one of the next boss abilities + some normal trash with him or something like that would be fine

[Coldkil]

i personlay wouldnt really care, but we DID have raid without trash back in wrath, TOGC, it was not really popular, so probably thats why they dont try it again

The lack in popularity was mostly due because it was really uninspired and for most people just a "transition raid" between Ulduar and ICC. Also it being placed between Uldiar and ICC is unfair competition

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Sepulcher was the first time in 7 years that i refused to reclear

I think this is an important point. Are raids actually meant to be a repeatable content or are they a challenge you have to beat? They needed to be repeatable because they were the only way to gear up, but right now they just aren't needed anymore for that (while obviously gear drops are a huge interest driver).

I am not against the idea of raids becoming something "harder" but that you really need to do only once or twice. It would be an hell of a paradigm shift though so i'm not advocating for this to be a thing. On the other side they could be easier and faster and have much less attrition so repeating them would be something much easier and less stressful on players.

Don't really know though if any of these can be a solution. From numbers it seems that once people is "mostly done" with gearing their characters, the interest in doing anything just drops to zero. I'm not considering Curve an objective because way too many people just buy that in the first weeks and i have no way to distinguish people who legit did it because they're good and the ones who just swiped the card. And for that you don't need gear.

[potis]

I think this is an important point. Are raids actually meant to be a repeatable content or are they a challenge you have to beat? They needed to be repeatable because they were the only way to gear up, but right now they just aren't needed anymore for that (while obviously gear drops are a huge interest driver).

I am not against the idea of raids becoming something "harder" but that you really need to do only once or twice. It would be an hell of a paradigm shift though so i'm not advocating for this to be a thing. On the other side they could be easier and faster and have much less attrition so repeating them would be something much easier and less stressful on players.

Don't really know though if any of these can be a solution. From numbers it seems that once people is "mostly done" with gearing their characters, the interest in doing anything just drops to zero. I'm not considering Curve an objective because way too many people just buy that in the first weeks and i have no way to distinguish people who legit did it because they're good and the ones who just swiped the card. And for that you don't need gear.

I didnt reclear because i have weaker players that cause wipes and burn the rest out, not because of the gear, generally we are pretty laid back, we raided around to 5 weeks in a row only 1 time for barely 2 hours cause someone was always missing, which attributed to getting burnt out and gearing up from other sources, so it was a mix of that and not the raid itself per se, but because that was happening, i didnt wanna waste 1 hour on pointless bosses, when we raid 2 hours, and had to progress, so extended for 5 weeks, and we were done.

Sepulcher isnt 100% to blame, but why reclear when 80% of my raid group already having 4 set from other sources, with the majority at something like 272-278 mix, for some trinket that doesnt matter since we only do AoTC?

Generally its true that after you are done gearing motivation to play goes to near 0, but thats why there are other goals personally and for my guild, AOTC-->Glory-->Break to play other things and not get fully burnt out-->Repeat every patch.