Uncapped Valor is too powerful

[paxen]

Uncapped valor feels great, and it's also really fun to run a lot of M+ now at the start of the season! I'm far from elite, but have run a bunch and currently sitting at 1771 rating, and nearly all my slots are 291 at this point. (spent 5k valor already, oops.)

The thing is, as long as raid is capped at loot once per week per boss, heroic raids can't compete at all. Our guild is currently stuck running normal, even though we got curve in s3, due to a mix of returning players and some players who don't do M+. And I really don't want to even talk about forcing our raiders to do content they don't like and don't have time for, but...we're looking at a gear gap of 30 ilvls or more between M+ers and pure raiders.

Normally the vault loot is what really puts M+ ahead of heroic raids, but with uncapped valor you don't even need the vault. Just run dungeons if you like that, and be heroic raid geared in 10 days.

It's really fun to be able to go ham on M+ and look at completing KSM this week or next week (next week for me), but it's causing a strain on our raid group. We're just at such different levels.

[Eazy]

The higher upgrade the higher amount of VP is required. I don't think that uncapped valor is too powerful.

The HC raids are dropping ~291-298 ilvl items. The highest possible upgrades from the M+(12/12) is 298, so I wouldn't say that's a problem.

If you guys are having 30ilvl gap(291-30=261) and you are still struggling with normal raiding then it isn't problem with the gear.
People with ~275ilvl gear are currently clearing the HC raids.

[ohwell]

The higher upgrade the higher amount of VP is required. I don't think that uncapped valor is too powerful.

The HC raids are dropping ~291-298 ilvl items. The highest possible upgrades from the M+(12/12) is 298, so I wouldn't say that's a problem.

If you guys are having 30ilvl gap(291-30=261) and you are still struggling with normal raiding then it isn't problem with the gear.
People with ~275ilvl gear are currently clearing the HC raids.

I'm sorry what? That isn't true. The rate is consistent. The only difference in cost is slot. The thing stopping higher upgrades is rating not VP.

[paxen]

If you guys are having 30ilvl gap(291-30=261) and you are still struggling with normal raiding then it isn't problem with the gear.
People with ~275ilvl gear are currently clearing the HC raids.

People who are geared from Sepulcher heroic are currently at 265ish, plus a couple of drops from fated heroic raids, not 275.

The problem isn't the overall ilvl (that kicks in when we've had a handful of 304 items from the vault), but the speed.

[Relapses]

This is a bit of an inverse of normal seasons. Because of the VP cap early on, M+ players scale fairly linearly with their raiding brethren but towards the end of a season raiders typically outscale M+ players because they have access to higher item level gear which drops from the later bosses. Now we're seeing the M+ players scale faster than raiders because of uncapped VP but in due time I'm sure raiders will once again outscale M+ players. (Though, arguably, the season will be almost over at that point.)

I don't know if it's a good or bad thing. I'd imagine if you're a raid logger inspecting a fully decked out M+er it can feel kind of demotivating but I think the end goal remains about the same.

[micwini]

The higher upgrade the higher amount of VP is required. I don't think that uncapped valor is too powerful.

The HC raids are dropping ~291-298 ilvl items. The highest possible upgrades from the M+(12/12) is 298, so I wouldn't say that's a problem.

If you guys are having 30ilvl gap(291-30=261) and you are still struggling with normal raiding then it isn't problem with the gear.
People with ~275ilvl gear are currently clearing the HC raids.

The ilvl isn't the problem. It's the rate of acquisition

[paxen]

This is a bit of an inverse of normal seasons. Because of the VP cap early on, M+ players scale fairly linearly with their raiding brethren but towards the end of a season raiders typically outscale M+ players because they have access to higher item level gear which drops from the later bosses. Now we're seeing the M+ players scale faster than raiders because of uncapped VP but in due time I'm sure raiders will once again outscale M+ players. (Though, arguably, the season will be almost over at that point.)

This is a problem for mythic raiders vs top M+ers, but I'd argue that KSM is more akin to Curve than Cutting Edge. Which means that if you're a heroic raider, you're never catching up to your guildmates who are running M+. (This is IMO a problem with vault loot, which isn't quite the same as valor gear. With capped valor but no Vault, both heroic raiders and KSMers eventually get a few pieces of 298 gear.)

[Puri]

No, uncapped valor has nothing to do with it.

Even in the previous raids with capped valor it did not matter. M+14 dropped 262 loot in season 3, and heroic raid dropped 265. Heroic raids (for items) have been invalidated ever since m+, which is spammable and has items that are upgradable to mythic level.

[ohwell]

This is a bit of an inverse of normal seasons. Because of the VP cap early on, M+ players scale fairly linearly with their raiding brethren but towards the end of a season raiders typically outscale M+ players because they have access to higher item level gear which drops from the later bosses. Now we're seeing the M+ players scale faster than raiders because of uncapped VP but in due time I'm sure raiders will once again outscale M+ players. (Though, arguably, the season will be almost over at that point.)

I don't know if it's a good or bad thing. I'd imagine if you're a raid logger inspecting a fully decked out M+er it can feel kind of demotivating but I think the end goal remains about the same.

Most people only have a handful of items that they can use at best from the last bosses so the gap isn't THAT big. This season, however, it might be bigger because there's now 3 raids worth of end bosses dropping higher ilvl loot. For example, as a cloth wearer you can get everything but boots and pants from end bosses this season whereas if it was just Sepulcher you had far fewer slots assuming those trinkets were any good for you whereas there's practically a trinket on all 6 this season.

[Alyajna]

It's a very short season and they want people to have fun and go nuts, as per usual at the end of an expac (which is expected, looked forward to and fun). It's not like this will be the normal going forward.

[ohwell]

No, uncapped valor has nothing to do with it.

Even in the previous raids with capped valor it did not matter. M+14 dropped 262 loot in season 3, and heroic raid dropped 265. Heroic raids (for items) have been invalidated ever since m+, which is spammable and has items that are upgradable to mythic level.

3 bosses in heroic dropped 272 so you might want to not keep that to yourself even though your whole point is pretty invalid since even 265 is higher than 262.

[Echeyakee]

Maybe the question should be "Why are raids still not spammable?"

[Puri]

3 bosses in heroic dropped 272 so you might want to not keep that to yourself even though your whole point is pretty invalid since even 265 is higher than 262.

Does that really matter? You have one shot per heroic raid boss per week, and m+ you can farm, and by farming it you also earn the currency to increase their itemlevel. You also kept to yourself that even after clearing the raid on heroic you would get a max itemlevel of 272(sic!) from the great vault, while doing a single m+15 would guarantee a 278.

[Caprias]

So instead of heroic rewards being an irrelevant joke like for the last 4 years (legion at least had tier exclusive) it's now a joke²?

[Puri]

Maybe the question should be "Why are raids still not spammable?"

That is the big question, together with "why doesn't valor drop in raids and raid items are upgradable, too".

[Hellobolis]

uncapped valor is quite powerful, but only for the first few weeks it will all balance out with vault loot and dinars soon enough. raids are easier tuned though so it shouldn't affect your progress too much either way.

just make sure all your heroic raiders do 1 m+ a week, even if you have to handhold them. doesn't even have to be a +15 a +12 will still give you 298 gear.

in my experience raiders only hate M+ if they have to pug it. if they do it with 3-4 of their raiding buddies it's not that bad or even fun. so step up as officer and help your guildies out.

[Cheezits]

The amount of people who do content they don't like to get good gear are a minority.

[ohwell]

Does that really matter? You have one shot per heroic raid boss per week, and m+ you can farm, and by farming it you also earn the currency to increase their itemlevel. You also kept to yourself that even after clearing the raid on heroic you would get a max itemlevel of 272(sic!) from the great vault, while doing a single m+15 would guarantee a 278.

Yes it does matter because you're claiming it's irrelevant when a lot of people don't see relevant drops in even repeatable m+ and repeating the same m+ on the appropriate level is not as feasible as you make it out to be. So yes it matters that you're making it like the ilvl is 265 when it's on average 267. "waaaah 14 is repeatable" when you literally need someone to have a specific key if you need an item is a poor argument AND your ilvl story is wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

uncapped valor is quite powerful, but only for the first few weeks it will all balance out with vault loot and dinars soon enough. raids are easier tuned though so it shouldn't affect your progress too much either way.

just make sure all your heroic raiders do 1 m+ a week, even if you have to handhold them. doesn't even have to be a +15 a +12 will still give you 298 gear.

in my experience raiders only hate M+ if they have to pug it. if they do it with 3-4 of their raiding buddies it's not that bad or even fun. so step up as officer and help your guildies out.

The pugging only really gets bad later in the season. Mid season it's pretty decent. Early season it depends on what key level you're doing. 2-8 right now are just awful but I'm tanking them for valor so it really doesn't matter as I can sleep through those even if dps is awful. 10+ are MOSTLY fine right now and will get better as people get accustomed to the dungeons(had grim rail 17 last week and that was a nightmare but due to quaking).

[trapmaster]

Short life span season ever!

[Temp name]

No, uncapped valor has nothing to do with it.

Even in the previous raids with capped valor it did not matter. M+14 dropped 262 loot in season 3, and heroic raid dropped 265. Heroic raids (for items) have been invalidated ever since m+, which is spammable and has items that are upgradable to mythic level.

I'd just like to point out that heroic raids are definitely still a very good source of gear.
Right now just from memory:
For every strength user: Old Warrior Soul is the BiS trinket even on normal
For strength 2h users: Gavel even at 285 beats out 304 weapons
For most tanks: Reactive Defense Matrix, and Shard of Annhylde's Aegis are BiS at normal or heroic ilvl
For casters: The Cabalist trinket from Sire is BiS on heroic
For healers: The Resonant Reservoir trinket from Daesagne is BiS for m+ on heroic
For Feral and Guardian druids: A 298 GAVEL (The 2h strength weapon) beats out 304 weapons. I am not joking. I can't remember the sims precisely, but I think it even wins at 285. Compared to 304 weapons. For agility users.

To say that heroic raids have been invalidated is to either be wilfully ignorant about gearing, or to lie.